Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:46 pm

Magus the figures have been done on here a million times. If you google it, it will take you about ten minutes to get the information (probably less because you young blokes are good at such things). It is not my job though to act as your researcher, and you have two options. Either take my word for it, or look it up for yourself. As I'm sure you've read it on the forum and the figures to back it up many times previously, and yet you STILL ask questions like "but were we Champions six seasons ago?", my guess is that the information will make no difference to you. You've managed to convince yourself up to this point that we have a wonderful manager who's doing an excellent job, so I'm not going to knock myself trying to convince you otherwise.

The facts however are all out there, make of them what you choose as usual

.

by **Scottbot** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:46 pm

maguskwt wrote:
Scottbot wrote:
maguskwt wrote:So what about Seven Goran Eirksson... he did pretty well in his club managments... and besides we can be sure that he won't rotate because he doesn't change his lineup at all... simple and direct football is what we want ain't it...

I know you said that to be sarcastic but that is exactly what we have been getting this season.

Yeah... I wonder why is that this season mate?

Is it proably because we've got not enough financial backing by the owners to build a strong squad? Owners who are skint and who has put 200 million debt on the club? In reality, Rafa's been selling players to buy since winter of 2008. This season is the culmination of the owner's transfer policy which was made worse by the lost of Alonso and also the injuries. The fact is that we didn't have a good enough squad to challenge for the title in 2007-2008. How will that change if we have spent 0 million net since winter of 2008? If you're asked to sell to buy, you start taking risks. You look for bargain basement offers in hope that they turn out good. I'm not saying Rafa is not liable. But he had to work within constraints. And he did. Last year's performance was a progress despite of the financial constraints. Whether we like it or not, this is not the kind of financial backing that a club challenging for the title should have. And we are founc out this season. Just look at this...

Since winter of 2008 we have sold these players:

Sissoko 8.2
Peter Crouch 11
Scott Carson 4
Riise 4
Danny Guthrie 2.25
Alonso 30
Robbie Keane 15
Arbeloa 3.5
Dossena 3.8
Voronin 2
Mihaylov 1.5

Total 85.25 millions

Since winter of 2008 we have bought:

Skrtel 6.5
Keane 19
Riera 8
Dossena 7
Ngog 1.5
Cavalieri 4
Aquilani 20
Johnson 17.5
Greek 1.5

Total 85 Millions

So, Benitez has been wasting millions eh? Even if we don't consider the sales of Dossena, Voronin and Mihaylov, Rafa has spent 7 million net since winter of 2008.

Granted there was no (net) money spend this past off-season (I read we spent just £4.5 million) and that has certainly contributed. I'm more than happy to conced that but WHY oh WHY will you (and umpteen others who support the manager) not concede the manager has made some MONUMENTAL errors in the transfer window and during this season?

I don't understand it, I really don't. Most fans who want a new manager ARE happy to conced that our owners are two of the biggest c...u...n...t...s you will ever find in sport and that Rafa is working under financial restraints but THAT DOESN'T MKAE IT ALL THEIR FAULT.

There's no point going into the errors in any detail coz it's been done to death but here goes:

- The sale of Alonso, we miss him like hell but it does seem that the problem (ie him wanting out) was down to Rafa's handling of the lad.

- Replacing him with Aqualani, been done to death but let's be honest here, it fu...c...k...ed us this season. BIG TIME. Even if he works out long term.

- Spending the rest of the budget on Johnson (I know you will say he should have been given more money BUT if you know your not gonna get it)

- Going into a season with only the brittle Torres as a reliable striker. Again you will come back to the budget BUt Rafa repeatadly said he was happy with Kuyt, Ngog and Babel (despite refusing to play him in that position)

- Losing Hyppia - I know he wanted to go but I don't believe he would have if he'd got a few more games last season. Our best defender in my opinion and we've missed him this season.

- Persisting with incredibly defensive teamsheets. It cost us massively in my opinion this season. Mash, Lucas, Kuyt in our midfield 5 together, throw in Carra at RB and Ngog upfront and it's no wonder we've been so toothless.

- We're still paying for older mistakes in the transfer market - Dossena, Riera (looked good but it all went to pot this season) and Babel spring to mind.

I agree the backing could have been better but i'm also looking past the numbers. And to be honest, particulalry as this season goes, I can't get past the negative line-ups, the baffling lack of substitutions when we're losing (or need to win), the refusal to change a sytem/selection of personnel when it's clear the current one is not working, the insistence on playing players who are clearly in a terrible run of form, and quite often this season, (and perhaps most worryingly) post match interviews from Rafa where he seems to genuinely believe that we played well when my eyes were telling me the complete opposite was true.

by **Sir Roger** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:47 pm

bigmick wrote:Back onto how good the mancs were when Rafa first arrived, not only weren't they Champions in the year before he arrived (they came third), they weren't Champions in Rafa's first season either. They weren't Champions in Rafa's second season either come to that, Mourinho's Chelsea p!ssed it on both occasions, the Mancs were miles behind. I think we even finished ahead of them by a point (or behind them by a point) in Rafa's second season. Since then, we've spent more money than them, they've won the title three times and the European Cup, while we've won feck all. It's all the owners though of course, and we are being brilliantly managed.

This season, they've won one trophy already, are in with a great shout of winning the league for the fourth time on the bounce, and are in the last 8 of the Champions League. We're battling for fourth and are in the Euro fair play cup thing. Then people say we've progressed , I swear you couldn't make it up.

We have arguably had the better players in the last six years but they have had better teams who play to their strengths.
Its so frustrating watching the skanks have wave after wave of attacking football while we do the same thing in some games then mysteriously plod and labour in others.
Creativity and individuality has been the key to purple noses success. Two of Rafas least used words...

by **Kerry07** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 6:11 pm

Sir Roger wrote:
bigmick wrote:Back onto how good the mancs were when Rafa first arrived, not only weren't they Champions in the year before he arrived (they came third), they weren't Champions in Rafa's first season either. They weren't Champions in Rafa's second season either come to that, Mourinho's Chelsea p!ssed it on both occasions, the Mancs were miles behind. I think we even finished ahead of them by a point (or behind them by a point) in Rafa's second season. Since then, we've spent more money than them, they've won the title three times and the European Cup, while we've won feck all. It's all the owners though of course, and we are being brilliantly managed.

This season, they've won one trophy already, are in with a great shout of winning the league for the fourth time on the bounce, and are in the last 8 of the Champions League. We're battling for fourth and are in the Euro fair play cup thing. Then people say we've progressed , I swear you couldn't make it up.

We have arguably had the better players in the last six years but they have had better teams who play to their strengths.
Its so frustrating watching the skanks have wave after wave of attacking football while we do the same thing in some games then mysteriously plod and labour in others.
Creativity and individuality has been the key to purple noses success. Two of Rafas least used words...

really good word that sum up the difference between Ferguson and rafa.

Each player has a freedom under Ferguson.. "go and express yourself". The opposite is the case with rafa who shackles players... constricts their creativity, and moulds them into his ponderous robotic machine. Get a tape of Alonso vs Norwich in 2004 (he had recently signed) where he was spraying it about for fun...and then compare his passing to seasons that followed.. the raking 60 yard cross field passes were curtailed.. thats Rafas doing. Babel would be a different player under Wenger... he'd be given free reign to perform and do what comes natural.

Rafa was brought up in a dictatorship under general Franco where individuality was not permitted and you had to follow orders. For Spain 1960's see todays Liverpool FC.

by **maguskwt** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 6:19 pm

bigmick wrote:Magus the figures have been done on here a million times. If you google it, it will take you about ten minutes to get the information (probably less because you young blokes are good at such things). It is not my job though to act as your researcher, and you have two options. Either take my word for it, or look it up for yourself. As I'm sure you've read it on the forum and the figures to back it up many times previously, and yet you STILL ask questions like "but were we Champions six seasons ago?", my guess is that the information will make no difference to you. You've managed to convince yourself up to this point that we have a wonderful manager who's doing an excellent job, so I'm not going to knock myself trying to convince you otherwise.

The facts however are all out there, make of them what you choose as usual .

Ok Mick, I can't help it and I've done a bit of research and here's what I've found. We all agree that in 1999 the mancs won the treble and therefore they were all conquering. They won 3 more titles until 2003, then they didn't win the league until 2007. So here's how much they spent from 2000 until they regained their title in 2007:

In Out
2000 Barthez 7.8 John Curtis 1.5
Danny Higginbotham 2
Massimo Taibi 2.5
Henning Berg 1.75

2001 Van Nistelrooy 19 David Healy 1.5
Veron 28.1 Greening 2
Roy Carroll 2.5 Mark Wilson 1.5
Stam 15.25
Cole 7.5

2002 Forlan 7.5 Dwight Yorke 2.6
Ferdinand 30
Ricardo Lopez 1.5

2003 David Bellion 2 Beckham 25
Djemba Djemba 4.2 Veron 15
Tim Howard 2.3
Ronaldo 12.24
Kleberson 5.93

2004 Saha 11.5 Nicky Butt 2
Alan Smith 7 Forlan 3
Heinze 6.9
Rooney 27

2005 Van der Sar undiscls Djemba Djemba 3.5
Park Ji Sung 4 Phil Neville 3
Kleberson 2.5

2006 John Obi Mikel undiscls John Obi Mikel 12
Vidic 7 Nistelrooy 10.2
Evra 5.5
Carrick 18.6

Total 210.57 114.3

Net Spend 96.27

A few things to consider:

1.From the trebel winning squad they had assets like Beckham, Stam, Cole, Yorke, Heningberg, Phil Neville for whom they had pretty decent money from sales. Compared to that we sold our biggest asset Owen for 8 million (ffs) when Rafa arrived.

2. That business with John Obi Mikel was pretty shady. They apparently got 12 million for free from Chelsea as compensation.

From the above there is no doubt in my mind that Ferguson invested heavily in players from 2000 onwards until they got their title back in 2006-2007 season. Much more than what Rafa spent in 6 years. And this was when they were champions. And this was when at that time the player values were not as inflated as now.

I'm not saying Rafa had zero to spend or that Rafa did superb in the transfer market. The point I'm making is that when it comes to the mancs and chelsea's squad, it never was a level playing field in terms of financial backing.

by **maguskwt** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 6:24 pm

ok, the list got scrambled, I've put the purchases figure in bold and sold figure is normal font.

by **RED BEERGOGGLES** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 6:31 pm

s@int wrote:
stmichael wrote:To be honest I'm pretty much resigned to the fact we're not getting a new manager anyway, unless Rafa walks.

I agree mate, and that WILL be the owners fault..... FACT.

Pretty magnanimous of you accepting defeat mate ,must say Im impressed :laugh:

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 6:42 pm

RED BEERGOGGLES wrote:
s@int wrote:
stmichael wrote:To be honest I'm pretty much resigned to the fact we're not getting a new manager anyway, unless Rafa walks.

I agree mate, and that WILL be the owners fault..... FACT.

Pretty magnanimous of you accepting defeat mate ,must say Im impressed

The owners haven't got anything right yet, so why should I expect them to make the right decision now and appoint a new manager?

How would it be a defeat? I also want us to replace Babel with Villa , if we don't is that considered a defeat?

I wouldn't consider it a victory if Rafa was sacked.

by **maguskwt** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 6:53 pm

Scottbot wrote:Granted there was no (net) money spend this past off-season (I read we spent just £4.5 million) and that has certainly contributed. I'm more than happy to conced that but WHY oh WHY will you (and umpteen others who support the manager) not concede the manager has made some MONUMENTAL errors in the transfer window and during this season?

I don't understand it, I really don't. Most fans who want a new manager ARE happy to conced that our owners are two of the biggest c...u...n...t...s you will ever find in sport and that Rafa is working under financial restraints but THAT DOESN'T MKAE IT ALL THEIR FAULT.

There's no point going into the errors in any detail coz it's been done to death but here goes:

- The sale of Alonso, we miss him like hell but it does seem that the problem (ie him wanting out) was down to Rafa's handling of the lad.

- Replacing him with Aqualani, been done to death but let's be honest here, it fu...c...k...ed us this season. BIG TIME. Even if he works out long term.

- Spending the rest of the budget on Johnson (I know you will say he should have been given more money BUT if you know your not gonna get it)

- Going into a season with only the brittle Torres as a reliable striker. Again you will come back to the budget BUt Rafa repeatadly said he was happy with Kuyt, Ngog and Babel (despite refusing to play him in that position)

- Losing Hyppia - I know he wanted to go but I don't believe he would have if he'd got a few more games last season. Our best defender in my opinion and we've missed him this season.

- Persisting with incredibly defensive teamsheets. It cost us massively in my opinion this season. Mash, Lucas, Kuyt in our midfield 5 together, throw in Carra at RB and Ngog upfront and it's no wonder we've been so toothless.

- We're still paying for older mistakes in the transfer market - Dossena, Riera (looked good but it all went to pot this season) and Babel spring to mind.

I agree the backing could have been better but i'm also looking past the numbers. And to be honest, particulalry as this season goes, I can't get past the negative line-ups, the baffling lack of substitutions when we're losing (or need to win), the refusal to change a sytem/selection of personnel when it's clear the current one is not working, the insistence on playing players who are clearly in a terrible run of form, and quite often this season, (and perhaps most worryingly) post match interviews from Rafa where he seems to genuinely believe that we played well when my eyes were telling me the complete opposite was true.

It's a good post Scott. And I never said that Rafa was faultless in the transfer market. Perhaps the name Rafapologist is suitable. Because I do pity Rafa. When Ferguson can make the error of buying Veron, Djemba Djemba, Kleberson and Forlan and left unpunished, Rafa is forever blamed for his mistakes. No manager has a perfect transfer record, but because of the fans expectations and the Owner's financial woes, Rafa gets more stick for it, to the extent of calling him clown, fat spanish waiter, killing the club, etc etc. When probably more than half the blame is on the owners (for me at least). So yeah, we want change and want new managers, if in the end we still don't challenge for the title and even do worse in europe, we will be baying for the new manager's blood again. Where will it end? We should ask ourselves whether Rafa is the main culprit here. And here's my response to your points:

- The sale of Alonso, we miss him like hell but it does seem that the problem (ie him wanting out) was down to Rafa's handling of the lad.

Do we know Alonso's motive for moving for certain?

- Replacing him with Aqualani, been done to death but let's be honest here, it fu...c...k...ed us this season. BIG TIME. Even if he works out long term.

Agreed. I am of the opinion however, that the error was made out of desperation. We can't forget that this deal was reported as us paying only 5 million up front.

- Spending the rest of the budget on Johnson (I know you will say he should have been given more money BUT if you know your not gonna get it)

Price is high but regardless he is still a good buy. England's right back.

- Going into a season with only the brittle Torres as a reliable striker. Again you will come back to the budget BUt Rafa repeatadly said he was happy with Kuyt, Ngog and Babel (despite refusing to play him in that position)

Agreed, we definitely needed another striker. Funds seemed to have run out by then. Could have signed Owen. Could have made a Huntelaar + money deal with Real for Alonso. But then again we exactly know what happened during the summer with regards to the funds.

- Losing Hyppia - I know he wanted to go but I don't believe he would have if he'd got a few more games last season. Our best defender in my opinion and we've missed him this season.

Hind sight. Never knew that the lost of Hyppia would affect us this much. The lost of form of Carragher and Skrtel was unexpected.

- Persisting with incredibly defensive teamsheets. It cost us massively in my opinion this season. Mash, Lucas, Kuyt in our midfield 5 together, throw in Carra at RB and Ngog upfront and it's no wonder we've been so toothless.

This is linked to the Aquilani transfer.

- We're still paying for older mistakes in the transfer market - Dossena, Riera (looked good but it all went to pot this season) and Babel spring to mind.

Dossena and Babel yes. Riera was a pretty good buy last season.

I agree the backing could have been better but i'm also looking past the numbers. And to be honest, particulalry as this season goes, I can't get past the negative line-ups, the baffling lack of substitutions when we're losing (or need to win), the refusal to change a sytem/selection of personnel when it's clear the current one is not working, the insistence on playing players who are clearly in a terrible run of form, and quite often this season, (and perhaps most worryingly) post match interviews from Rafa where he seems to genuinely believe that we played well when my eyes were telling me the complete opposite was true.

The squad has been losing its strength since winter of 2008 like I've mentioned. Whether you blame Rafa or the owners is really up to you.

by **RED BEERGOGGLES** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 6:55 pm

It was a joke hence the smilie ,ffs lighten up fella

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:01 pm

RED BEERGOGGLES wrote:It was a joke hence the smilie ,ffs lighten up fella

Its serious business football mate :angry:

by **Sir Roger** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:13 pm

Kerry07 wrote:
Sir Roger wrote:
bigmick wrote:Back onto how good the mancs were when Rafa first arrived, not only weren't they Champions in the year before he arrived (they came third), they weren't Champions in Rafa's first season either. They weren't Champions in Rafa's second season either come to that, Mourinho's Chelsea p!ssed it on both occasions, the Mancs were miles behind. I think we even finished ahead of them by a point (or behind them by a point) in Rafa's second season. Since then, we've spent more money than them, they've won the title three times and the European Cup, while we've won feck all. It's all the owners though of course, and we are being brilliantly managed.

This season, they've won one trophy already, are in with a great shout of winning the league for the fourth time on the bounce, and are in the last 8 of the Champions League. We're battling for fourth and are in the Euro fair play cup thing. Then people say we've progressed , I swear you couldn't make it up.

We have arguably had the better players in the last six years but they have had better teams who play to their strengths.
Its so frustrating watching the skanks have wave after wave of attacking football while we do the same thing in some games then mysteriously plod and labour in others.
Creativity and individuality has been the key to purple noses success. Two of Rafas least used words...

really good word that sum up the difference between Ferguson and rafa.

Each player has a freedom under Ferguson.. "go and express yourself". The opposite is the case with rafa who shackles players... constricts their creativity, and moulds them into his ponderous robotic machine. Get a tape of Alonso vs Norwich in 2004 (he had recently signed) where he was spraying it about for fun...and then compare his passing to seasons that followed.. the raking 60 yard cross field passes were curtailed.. thats Rafas doing. Babel would be a different player under Wenger... he'd be given free reign to perform and do what comes natural.

Rafa was brought up in a dictatorship under general Franco where individuality was not permitted and you had to follow orders. For Spain 1960's see todays Liverpool FC.

So endeth the history lesson
:laugh:

by **RED BEERGOGGLES** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:26 pm

s@int wrote:
RED BEERGOGGLES wrote:It was a joke hence the smilie ,ffs lighten up fella

Its serious business football mate

Even in my 40s Mate I can safely say I am still learning the ropes

by **devaney** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:29 pm

maguskwt wrote:
Scottbot wrote:
maguskwt wrote:So what about Seven Goran Eirksson... he did pretty well in his club managments... and besides we can be sure that he won't rotate because he doesn't change his lineup at all... simple and direct football is what we want ain't it...

I know you said that to be sarcastic but that is exactly what we have been getting this season.

Yeah... I wonder why is that this season mate?

Is it proably because we've got not enough financial backing by the owners to build a strong squad? Owners who are skint and who has put 200 million debt on the club? In reality, Rafa's been selling players to buy since winter of 2008. This season is the culmination of the owner's transfer policy which was made worse by the lost of Alonso and also the injuries. The fact is that we didn't have a good enough squad to challenge for the title in 2007-2008. How will that change if we have spent 0 million net since winter of 2008? If you're asked to sell to buy, you start taking risks. You look for bargain basement offers in hope that they turn out good. I'm not saying Rafa is not liable. But he had to work within constraints. And he did. Last year's performance was a progress despite of the financial constraints. Whether we like it or not, this is not the kind of financial backing that a club challenging for the title should have. And we are founc out this season. Just look at this...

Since winter of 2008 we have sold these players:

Sissoko 8.2
Peter Crouch 11
Scott Carson 4
Riise 4
Danny Guthrie 2.25
Alonso 30
Robbie Keane 15
Arbeloa 3.5
Dossena 3.8
Voronin 2
Mihaylov 1.5

Total 85.25 millions

Since winter of 2008 we have bought:

Skrtel 6.5
Keane 19
Riera 8
Dossena 7
Ngog 1.5
Cavalieri 4
Aquilani 20
Johnson 17.5
Greek 1.5

Total 85 Millions

So, Benitez has been wasting millions eh? Even if we don't consider the sales of Dossena, Voronin and Mihaylov, Rafa has spent 7 million net since winter of 2008.

One year in isolation - come on !!

In the four previous years Benitez averaged £25m per year net in the transfer market. Only Chelsea spent more. Just what has Rafa got for his money in comparison to Arsenal who spent considerably less and now look a far stronger proposition than Liverpool. Same could be said of Spurs. Rafa has waisted a lot of money. Just look at our strikers as an example. Ngog is the natural replacement for Torres - you might as well ask me to do the job! Vorinin was completely out of his depth. Babel needs to quickly grow a football brain - maybe something there but as frustrating as hell. And Stevie has stopped shooting for goal? Virtually nobody in the team scores goals except for two or three players so what does Rafa do, he spends £20m on a right back who hasn't really set the world on fire except for his first couple of matches. yes Rafa really has waisted money. It doesn't matter that you can balance the books he still spent £85m on largely questionable buys.

by **terry66** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:36 pm

terry66 wrote:We must stick with Rafa until the end of the season

I agree, what are are other options

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