Liverpool FC Forum

[Sabre]

In fairness I don't think we lost the Cl final due to tiredness necessarily, but it's true to say we weren't exactly leaping around like gazelles either. That said I think even the pro-rotationists wouldn't claim that it makes players run around more, or exude extra energy, I think the theory goes that it makes you kind of sharper, more alert, able to make better decisions etc etc.
I guess whether or not it works is best judged by how the team performed in the league, relative to how good the sum of the parts are. If you are of the opinion that us finishing 21 points behind the Champions is a true reflection on our merits, then it would be fair to say that the rotation had no effect last season. If you think we are actually a worse team than that, then you'd be thanking your lucky stars for the tinkering as it got us to the level we finished. If on the other hand you think that we are actually a better team than that, then you'd conclude that not only did the rotation not help us but it probably hindered us as well.

Rafa said that to be in a final you have to reach in a good moment, and he has a point, as he's reached several finals of different competitions.

The league is what tells how it works, but what do you look at, the position, or the points behind the first team? I think it's fair to admit, that at some points of last season Rafa didn't care much about the league, and it wasn't a rotation policy as such, but he was directly resting players to play them in Europe. Meaning, if the goal would have been to be closer in term of points to the first place, that could have been done by risking some players. Chelsea lost one of their defenders in the league that way and they probably paid for it against us in Europe. I don't know if people thinks that 14 points is better than 21 points behind Manchester, but at the end of the day it's a third place. If the 2nd place was close enough, it would have been worth to fight it, but at some moments of the last season we had no other goal than keeping the 3rd place.

But I do agree the league is a good indicator, I think this season the priority must be to win the league. And if this season we're not close enough to win the league, then it's fair enough to say the policy didn't work.

I agree when you say we could have made a more serious title challenge for the league. The squad was good enough to be much closer of the first team. But we didn't have a squad good enough to perform BOTH in the league, Champions and FA cup.

This year we do. When we play a "minor" cup, we're playing Leiva instead of Guthrie, Dudek and other guys we played against Arsenal yesteryear. We're stronger as a squad. It's time to attack the league now

[stmichael]

Just going back to Torres, yes it was probably a mistake to rest him against Brum but it was just a calculated gamble which didn't come off. Not a hanging offence like the media are trying to make out.

I'm also convinced that if Gerrard had not knackered himself for England we'd have at least two more points now. Unfortunately he'll do it again in October aswell I can see it now. Gerrard will put all his effort into the Russia match on the Wednesday and have nothing left for the Derby on the Saturday. It was exactly the same last season.

[bigmick]

The sooner people realise that Rafa Benitez is not some sort of guru the better. He is admittedly a brilliant football manager but he is not the messiah and I do wonder sometimes when every word which comes out of his mouth is held up in almost mystical terms as the utterances of some sort of football God.

I've got a theory about the "Birmingham defend too deep for Torres to play" statement for instance. I think it is absolute and utter b0ll0cks. it makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever, I think it is tripe. But here's the rub, I think Rafa knows it is tripe as well because I think he plays games with interviewers.

He was benching Torres against Birmingham in my opinion for two reasons. Firstly, Torres didn't do a tap in midweek against Porto. Secondly, he wanted to show Torres that although we didn't fire against Pompey, we could still win comfotably without him. That it didn't work is by the by. THAT in my opinion is why he didn't play Torres at Home against Birmingham and as I've said on a number of occasions I have no particular problems with the selection. Now when some journo sticks a Mic' under his nose and asks him why he didn't play Torres, I think Rafa fecks him off with a flippant football answer and takes the p!ss because he knows they've all got him down as some sort of football physician. At the end of the day what can he say anyway? He can hardly say "well I knew Birmingham were sh!te so I thought I'd let him have a bit of a rest. Little did I know that the rest of them were going to play like a bunch of c****" now can he.

What does me though is when everyone jumps on this playing between the lines nonsense and tries to make sense out of a comment which doesn't make any. Similarly, and equally laughably we are now starting to see the "playing Torres against Reading was a masterstroke, long planned" inferences coming in. Does anybody seriously believe that two weeks ago R afa would have contemplated playing Torres Away at reading in the Carling Cup in midweek ("but he wouldn't even have considered that option. You see what he does is picks a team for each individual game, takes them all as they come etc etc") Do me a fecking favour. After three abysmal performances he totally correctly played Torres to make sure that when he plays him on Saturday he is properly revved up. Like I say, he is not a guru he is a human being and we all make mistakes.

[account deleted by request]

Maybe when we come to sell Kewell, instead of saying he's injury prone we could say he's already fitted with natural rotational properties.

One of my concerns about rotation is it plays a great reliance on the manager to pick a team still capable of winning games against a particular opponent while resting players, rather than picking your best team that may be able to cope better with the trials and tribulations of football (bad decisions, hitting the post, fluke goals against etc).

On the positive side it does give you a better chance of being able to play your best team against the top sides, as in theory you should have less injuries using rotation than teams who's players play every game. Unfortunately up to now this theory doesn't seem to have worked as our record against the better sides is not that good (in the league), maybe because the other top sides rotate as well?

[Sabre]

Rafa is not god. But that the concept of players knowing playing between the lines is a common concept around here (1), there always have been players who play between lines better than others, so I can't see why it's bóllocks.

Anyhow, I agree the main point, Rafa is not mistake-free. For instance I consider a mistake using Voronin rather than Crouch against Birmingham. I consider a mistake not spotting Pennant should have been subbed before the red card. That are mistakes, the mistakes I see. Which might be bóllocks, or wrong, but I won't jump on the "Torres must every league game" if I don't believe it.

All this is understandable. Torres has done superb games, and people want to see him. I can't blame you.

(1) I remind that Bad Bob asked me what that meant last season when I used it in a PM commenting a match

[stmichael]

What does me though is when everyone jumps on this playing between the lines nonsense and tries to make sense out of a comment which doesn't make any.

Agree 100% with this. That statement from Rafa made no sense to me either. By saying they play "between the lines" it doesn't mean they have to be No.10's or that that's even the role they are filling.

If you use 442 as a template it just means any player that works between the conventional lines of play across the pitch. Take Guardiola and Makelele for example, both entirely different players with different abilities but both played 'between the lines' of defence and midfield.

In the case of Kuyt and Voronin the both like to drop deep to get the ball and work between the midfield and strikers (the same as Crouch) or work the channels rather than play on the shoulder of the defender (in Kuyts case he can do both) doesn't make them any less of a between the lines player though.

[bigmick]

Look I'm not saying that the comment is b0ll0cks because I don't understand the notion of playing between the lines. Playing between the lines is a concept which is as old as the offside trap FFS. What is pure, unadultarated b0ll0cks is the insuation that somehow a pacy player such as a Torres, an Owen or an Henri can be completely negated if the opposition decide to defend deeper. Guys I can't believe we ar even debating this, look at what he said and tell me he was being serious? It's like saying we are only going to play Crouch if the opposition only have small defenders, or only going to play Kuyt if the opposition defenders don't run around too much.

I'm done wiht it anyhow. I can't honestly believe that people are prepared to debate such a notion. I wonder what they'll all do if Rafa releases a book and has a laugh about it in one of the chapters, how he conned the media.

[Judge]

Guys I can't believe we are even debating this

yes, stop mass-debating this

[stmichael]

Yeah, boll#cks to this.

Lets review rotation again in a few years using Rooney as an example. He seems to be breaking his foot nearly every year now. We shall see how playing your best players works in the long term, as thats exactly what Fergie does, as does whoever is/will run the national team.

[Bad Bob]

Does anybody seriously believe that two weeks ago R afa would have contemplated playing Torres Away at reading in the Carling Cup in midweek ("but he wouldn't even have considered that option. You see what he does is picks a team for each individual game, takes them all as they come etc etc") Do me a fecking favour. After three abysmal performances he totally correctly played Torres to make sure that when he plays him on Saturday he is properly revved up. Like I say, he is not a guru he is a human being and we all make mistakes.

Spot on, this.  There is no chance Torres would have played on Tuesday were it not for our recent barren spell in front of goal and the criticism that generated.  We've seen in the past just how little Rafa values the Carling Cup compared to the other comps so Torres starting was all about regaining momentum.  In that sense, through his team selection on Tuesday, Rafa all but admitted he had made a mistake in previous matches.

FWIW, my problem with this whole debate remains the way it polarizes viewpoints into positions that are fairly unreasonable when reviewed in the cold light of day but which are nonetheless passionate responses to the other camp.  It usually starts reasonably enough: someone (like say Scottbot--perhaps our most level-headed poster on the board) comes on and says that he was mystified and quite frustrated with Rafa's team selection at Portsmouth.  A few other reasonable posts appear in agreement and these are countered by some well-grounded "I hear what you're saying but..." posts on the other side of the Great Rotation Divide.  But,  eventually you'll get the "Rafa doesn't know his a.rse from a hole in the ground" type of posts which invariably produce the "feck that--Rafa knows best and who are you to criticize?" responses.  Before long, rigid battle lines are drawn and a lot of us (and I'll certainly hold my hand up on this) find ourselves making claims that feel just a bit too OTT just to match the OTT criticisms coming from the other camp.  The irony is that, deep down, I don't think any of us truly believe that Rafa is either infallible or clueless--we just get so caught up in going tit for tat with the other camp that some truly bizarre claims tend to be made with what seems like absolute conviction at the time.

[mramo]

Hm, Its his 'Arian' trait kicking in.

Rafa is very selfish, & highly impatient when it comes to team selection & decision-making with his starting 11. We all know he likes to agree to 'disagree' & believe his way is the right way because he fears admitting his weakness in front of the watching public incase they make the mockery out of him. Theres no shame to admit mistakes, hence why he seems to defend every decision he makes. The public arent stupid. And this is what needs to be addressed to Rafa if we have any chance of winning the League.

I noticed in the last 2 years why the squad is rotated frequently partly due to 'hold-ups' - which is Rafa most biggest irritations. (i.e. Injury, Poor Form). But I see his overall logic of Squad rotation. But to change in high numbers in each game cannot be healthy though. We certainly know our strongest 11, but does Rafa?

[Lando_Griffin]

Hm, Its his 'Arian' trait kicking in.

Rafa is very selfish, & highly impatient when it comes to team selection & decision-making with his starting 11. We all know he likes to agree to 'disagree' & believe his way is the right way because he fears admitting his weakness in front of the watching public incase they make the mockery out of him. Theres no shame to admit mistakes, hence why he seems to defend every decision he makes. The public arent stupid. And this is what needs to be addressed to Rafa if we have any chance of winning the League.

I noticed in the last 2 years why the squad is rotated frequently partly due to 'hold-ups' - which is Rafa most biggest irritations. (i.e. Injury, Poor Form). But I see his overall logic of Squad rotation. But to change in high numbers in each game cannot be healthy though. We certainly know our strongest 11, but does Rafa?

Well if the general public know best, why don't the general public take the tests, earn the badges and prove it?

Peewee for instance - he reckons he knows everything about everything, and yet - where is he? Is he sat in a UEFA classroom, earning his stripes so that one day he may topple Rafa and prove to the World that his methods are far superior to the Spaniard?

[Lando_Griffin]

however rafa wants to dress it up mate and give reasons or excuses, the fact remains that this policy has failed for the last 3 seasons and judging on the loss of 4 points in the last 2 league games (against much weaker opposition) looks very much like it will fail again.

I am not into slating rafa just for the sake of it, but as a fan of many many years i feel i have the right to criticise when it is justified, and in this case mate i feel its fully justified. if his policy had worked in the league for the last 3 seasons and this was just a blip then its not a major problem, but let me remind you of the 21 point gap last season and how our fresh players never got near milan in the champions league final despite his comments about players being fresh at the end of the season.

all it is is soundbites from rafa to mask the fact that his tactics do no not work in relation to rotation and a fear that if he know changes his policy and starts winning people will know he was wrong. its about time to swallow his pride and put the team before his pride

Champions' League final stats, 2006-07:

                            AC Milan 2        -         1     Liverpool

Shots:                       7(3)                              17(4)

Corners                      4                                   6

Offsides                     3                                   3

Possession                  54%                              46%


No - we never got near them, did we, pee? 

[Ace Ventura]

I cant see what peewee has said thats spouting sh!te.

bigmicks posts have also summed this us perfectly, Rafa has definately made mistakes with team selections and come up with bizarre excuses to defend them.

Lando you came out with a strange statement about...no other team will come to Anfield and defend like Birmingham...even defending Rafa's ridiculous excuse...when i asked you to explain...i never got any reply...bigmick asked you to explain, again with no reply.
There's nothing wrong with being 100% behind the manager but you really do appear to be blinkered when it comes to discussing...

A) Rafa
B) Alonso.

Apologies if you did explain what you meant by the Birmingham defending quote...i may have missed it if thats the case 

[redtrader74]

Does anybody seriously believe that two weeks ago R afa would have contemplated playing Torres Away at reading in the Carling Cup in midweek ("but he wouldn't even have considered that option. You see what he does is picks a team for each individual game, takes them all as they come etc etc") Do me a fecking favour. After three abysmal performances he totally correctly played Torres to make sure that when he plays him on Saturday he is properly revved up. Like I say, he is not a guru he is a human being and we all make mistakes.

Spot on, this.  There is no chance Torres would have played on Tuesday were it not for our recent barren spell in front of goal and the criticism that generated.  We've seen in the past just how little Rafa values the Carling Cup compared to the other comps so Torres starting was all about regaining momentum.  In that sense, through his team selection on Tuesday, Rafa all but admitted he had made a mistake in previous matches.

FWIW, my problem with this whole debate remains the way it polarizes viewpoints into positions that are fairly unreasonable when reviewed in the cold light of day but which are nonetheless passionate responses to the other camp.  It usually starts reasonably enough: someone (like say Scottbot--perhaps our most level-headed poster on the board) comes on and says that he was mystified and quite frustrated with Rafa's team selection at Portsmouth.  A few other reasonable posts appear in agreement and these are countered by some well-grounded "I hear what you're saying but..." posts on the other side of the Great Rotation Divide.  But,  eventually you'll get the "Rafa doesn't know his a.rse from a hole in the ground" type of posts which invariably produce the "feck that--Rafa knows best and who are you to criticize?" responses.  Before long, rigid battle lines are drawn and a lot of us (and I'll certainly hold my hand up on this) find ourselves making claims that feel just a bit too OTT just to match the OTT criticisms coming from the other camp.  The irony is that, deep down, I don't think any of us truly believe that Rafa is either infallible or clueless--we just get so caught up in going tit for tat with the other camp that some truly bizarre claims tend to be made with what seems like absolute conviction at the time.

Thats spot on Bob. It happens in almost all discussions to a greater or lesser extent. The thing is those who are overly critical would IMHO, in a pub, defend Rafa to the hilt if a bitter or manc started saying Rafa doesn't know his ars e from his elbow.

I really don't think anyone here considers Rafa sage-like, i've not seen posts agreeing with all the decisions over the past fortnight. Most are willing to concede they were baffled by the Pompey selection, but the one undeniable fact has got be that Rafa picks the team that HE believes will WIN. If you don't accept that, then by all means call for his head.

What probably gets Rafas defenders back up is when his detractors ignore that, and call his team selection 'tinkering', 'selectorial silliness', 'rotating for the sake of rotating', 'he picks the names out of hat'. That shows contempt for the manager, the same manager whose management has also brought us success in every competition bar the League so far.