Liverpool FC Forum

[Lando_Griffin]

FWIW, Birmingham are the only team that will defend that deep at Anfield this season.

Lots of interesting points came out of the discussions over the last couple of days, none more so than this one. Do you literally mean that nobody will defend this deep Lando, or in a similar fashion, or is there another nuance to the comment which I'm missing. I first read the comment this morning (NZ time) and I couldn't really fathom it at the time. I've just been thinking about it in the car on the way home and you've still got me mate.

The idea that all that pace gives you is the ability to "run in behind" to quote Rafa is also a new one on me. Pace just enables you to do things quicker, whether it is reacting to a ball ricocheting around in the box, running onto a through bal, jinking away from a marker, making yourself half a yard to get a shot away or whatever.

I see Rushie says he understood it from a tactical point of view. Well he's a better man than me. He should know of course, he had a fair old turn of foot and was pretty effective against all teams whether they dended deep or high up. Curiously if my memory serves, he didn't do so well against Man Utd and they did defend high up so there you go.

No, I think Rafa left Torres out against Birmingham for an entirely different reason. I think he left him out because as Ivor the Injun pointed out he was poor at Porto, and because he thought he could get away with it. On both counts it was a fair enough decision for me. It was just uunfortunate that the previous silliness at Pompey had derailed us from a confidence point of view, so even with a team which was easily adequate we didn't come through. Hopefully now, we'll play a decent team against Wigna and get ourselves a little momentum again.

I don't buy the stuff about running in behind, Birmingham defending too deep for Torres to be effective, the other strikers being better at playing between the lines though. I don't buy it because it is utter b0ll0cks.

What I was implying is that most of the teams around Birmingham's position do not have the defensive strength to hold us to 0-0's, and thus will have to come out and defend a little higher, in order that they may score a goal.

I'd be shocked to see another team have one attacker on the field, and make the rest of their team up with defenders/defensive midfielders.

I might be wrong, but let's be honest - on another day we would have flattened Brum 8-0, and the other teams will know this.

[Wilhelmsson]

Well, if it's a matter of opinions - as you rightly say - then who are you to judge who is over critical, and who finds it difficult to criticise him?

You’re correct and what I said is my opinion and perception of what I have been reading.

You want names LFC2007? I'm one of them. He said so the other day   But I won't start a fight because of that.

I don’t recall saying such a thing, to my knowledge I have not said the names of who I believe to find it difficult to criticise when the manager. I also fail to see why this is of any remote relevance, it’s hardly a point worth discussing, I was merely questioning AB’s stance with regards to “Rafa knows best”.

[Sabre]

Well, if it's a matter of opinions - as you rightly say - then who are you to judge who is over critical, and who finds it difficult to criticise him?

You’re correct and what I said is my opinion and perception of what I have been reading.

You want names LFC2007? I'm one of them. He said so the other day   But I won't start a fight because of that.

I don’t recall saying such a thing, to my knowledge I have not said the names of who I believe to find it difficult to criticise when the manager. I also fail to see why this is of any remote relevance, it’s hardly a point worth discussing, I was merely questioning AB’s stance with regards to “Rafa knows best”.

I agree it's completely irrelevant to give opinions about posters. You rised a question the other day about whether the proRafa brigade would support him without his Dominance in Europe. I answered back, and you said that my answer summed it all up and that I was one of his big defenders, or something. Anyhow, it's unimportant and I wasn't talking too seriously, just taking the píss about the "I want names"

Let's discuss footie. Let's criticise Rafa (or Gerrard for that matter) with no fear to be slagged, and let's not forget we're just a bunch of Liverpool fans. No need to war. </lisa simpson>

[Lando_Griffin]

I doubt anyone is suggesting that Torres cannot operate without space, but a big part of his game (and most of his goals) come from one-on-one situations where he's nipped beyond the defender, and slots the ball home.

The "every striker plays better with space" is definitely true, but it may help to see it as "certain strikers play better than others in confined spaces."

[AB's Red Army]

I was merely questioning AB’s stance with regards to “Rafa knows best”.

This particular manager is in a better position to judge certain things than we are.

Does that mean that he doesn't make mistakes? No he it doesn't. For instance I don't agree with his decision not to play certain players against Portsmouth.

I am not however blaming him alone for players performing poorly even with a strong line up i.e. Porto and Birmingham.

[whatahitson]

just saw Rafa on SSN, he is looking a bit tired and down. I hope the pressure isnt get to him. I'd hate to see him go. We might moan about his rotation policy etc but he is tops.

[GRIMM599]

As much as i like rafa, he is really starting to annoy me. If he wasnt so stubborn we would had a set team and perhaps top of the table (i know its early ect but if it continues through out the season.....) I dont know why he doesnt just try shut everyone up and test what the general public wants and play a set team for 8-10 games and see how it goes.

Plus he is moaning in a lot of interviews which isnt making a good impression. he wasnt like that last season

[112-1077774096]

bbc


Benitez defends Torres rotation
Liverpool manager Rafael Benitez
Benitez wants his side fresh at the end of the season
Liverpool boss Rafael Benitez says his squad rotation system will pay dividends at the end of the season.

Benitez did not start striker Fernando Torres in the goalless draws with Portsmouth and Birmingham before the forward scored a hat-trick at Reading.

"I don't need Torres for playing Birmingham if I have Dirk Kuyt, Andriy Voronin and Peter Crouch," he said.

"I need the speed of Torres in the last game of the season - maybe a Champions League final or to win the league."

"Those are the decisions of a manager," he added.

Despite Torres' triple in the Carling Cup win over Reading, Benitez said it does not guarantee him a starting place for the Reds at Wigan on Saturday.

"When you are playing for winning trophies you must analyse everything and say 'OK for the last 10-15 games I need Torres fit'," he said.

"People are talking about players playing a lot of games now. They can do it. I don't say that they can't.

"You can play 20, 25 or 30 games in a row. No problem. Everybody can do it. The problem is at the end of the season after 30-40 games.

"The last 10-15 games you are playing for trophies and you must be fresh, ready and fit."

--------------------------------------------------------------


oh well maybe you should just send torres on holiday for a few months rafa so you have him fit at the end of the season in the hope we are still in with a shout of any trophies, its comments like this that p*ss me off about benitez.

one minute he is saying the league is our priority and the next it seems as though our priority is just having fit players at the end of the season.

then saying he doesnt need torres for the likes of birmingham, well obviously looking at the result rafa you do need torres for such games.

sadly guys i think he will carry on the way he has been to the detriment of the team and i think the league will not be coming again this season unless he changes this stupid attitude.

in another thread a posters comments on how he has studied football all his life so we should all bow down to his superior knowledge, don't make me laugh, the guy can not even grasp a simple concept and continues with a tactic that hasn't worked the last 3 years in the hope that it will magically work this season, but the last 2 league games already show us it won't work. the fact that he is constantly having to defend it tactics shows us it's not working

[crazyhorse]

Trust the guy. I believe he will deliver the title, but i woud say the earliest this will happen is next season.

[maypaxvobiscum]

"I don't need Torres for playing Birmingham if I have Dirk Kuyt, Andriy Voronin and Peter Crouch," he said.

"I need the speed of Torres in the last game of the season - maybe a Champions League final or to win the league."

rubbish

[cpc4eva]

bbc


Benitez defends Torres rotation
Liverpool manager Rafael Benitez
Benitez wants his side fresh at the end of the season
Liverpool boss Rafael Benitez says his squad rotation system will pay dividends at the end of the season.

Benitez did not start striker Fernando Torres in the goalless draws with Portsmouth and Birmingham before the forward scored a hat-trick at Reading.

"I don't need Torres for playing Birmingham if I have Dirk Kuyt, Andriy Voronin and Peter Crouch," he said.

"I need the speed of Torres in the last game of the season - maybe a Champions League final or to win the league."

"Those are the decisions of a manager," he added.

Despite Torres' triple in the Carling Cup win over Reading, Benitez said it does not guarantee him a starting place for the Reds at Wigan on Saturday.

"When you are playing for winning trophies you must analyse everything and say 'OK for the last 10-15 games I need Torres fit'," he said.

"People are talking about players playing a lot of games now. They can do it. I don't say that they can't.

"You can play 20, 25 or 30 games in a row. No problem. Everybody can do it. The problem is at the end of the season after 30-40 games.

"The last 10-15 games you are playing for trophies and you must be fresh, ready and fit."

--------------------------------------------------------------


oh well maybe you should just send torres on holiday for a few months rafa so you have him fit at the end of the season in the hope we are still in with a shout of any trophies, its comments like this that p*ss me off about benitez.

one minute he is saying the league is our priority and the next it seems as though our priority is just having fit players at the end of the season.

then saying he doesnt need torres for the likes of birmingham, well obviously looking at the result rafa you do need torres for such games.

sadly guys i think he will carry on the way he has been to the detriment of the team and i think the league will not be coming again this season unless he changes this stupid attitude.

in another thread a posters comments on how he has studied football all his life so we should all bow down to his superior knowledge, don't make me laugh, the guy can not even grasp a simple concept and continues with a tactic that hasn't worked the last 3 years in the hope that it will magically work this season, but the last 2 league games already show us it won't work. the fact that he is constantly having to defend it tactics shows us it's not working

couldnt agree more with you.....

how will teams ever fear us with talk like that from Rafa?

how will our players be feel when they hear stuff like this ?

how do we expect to win the title when we havnt got our best players on the pitch for every prem match ?

manure fielded a team on the basis of rafa'a rotation policy and they got drubbed 2-0 to coventry....

results on this rotation policy are conclusive continue to practice it and we will continue to have indifferent results when we need to be consistently winning week from week and not worried about who is available and fit with  10 - 15 games to go....

i couldnt give a toss about all the cups and rafa has said the title is the priority but i feel he is still keeping his eyes on 1 if not all the other cups if we win everything great but if we lose the title and win cups it wont make me or any of the tru reds feel any better...

WE WANT THE TITLE and we have the team to do it this season.....

[maguskwt]

bbc


Benitez defends Torres rotation
Liverpool manager Rafael Benitez
Benitez wants his side fresh at the end of the season
Liverpool boss Rafael Benitez says his squad rotation system will pay dividends at the end of the season.

Benitez did not start striker Fernando Torres in the goalless draws with Portsmouth and Birmingham before the forward scored a hat-trick at Reading.

"I don't need Torres for playing Birmingham if I have Dirk Kuyt, Andriy Voronin and Peter Crouch," he said.

"I need the speed of Torres in the last game of the season - maybe a Champions League final or to win the league."

"Those are the decisions of a manager," he added.

Despite Torres' triple in the Carling Cup win over Reading, Benitez said it does not guarantee him a starting place for the Reds at Wigan on Saturday.

"When you are playing for winning trophies you must analyse everything and say 'OK for the last 10-15 games I need Torres fit'," he said.

"People are talking about players playing a lot of games now. They can do it. I don't say that they can't.

"You can play 20, 25 or 30 games in a row. No problem. Everybody can do it. The problem is at the end of the season after 30-40 games.

"The last 10-15 games you are playing for trophies and you must be fresh, ready and fit."

--------------------------------------------------------------


oh well maybe you should just send torres on holiday for a few months rafa so you have him fit at the end of the season in the hope we are still in with a shout of any trophies, its comments like this that p*ss me off about benitez.

one minute he is saying the league is our priority and the next it seems as though our priority is just having fit players at the end of the season.

then saying he doesnt need torres for the likes of birmingham, well obviously looking at the result rafa you do need torres for such games.

sadly guys i think he will carry on the way he has been to the detriment of the team and i think the league will not be coming again this season unless he changes this stupid attitude.

in another thread a posters comments on how he has studied football all his life so we should all bow down to his superior knowledge, don't make me laugh, the guy can not even grasp a simple concept and continues with a tactic that hasn't worked the last 3 years in the hope that it will magically work this season, but the last 2 league games already show us it won't work. the fact that he is constantly having to defend it tactics shows us it's not working

pls listen to the WHOLE interview in the wigan thread... his explanations sound reasonable to me... oh well but this is a rafa bashing thread...

[112-1077774096]

however rafa wants to dress it up mate and give reasons or excuses, the fact remains that this policy has failed for the last 3 seasons and judging on the loss of 4 points in the last 2 league games (against much weaker opposition) looks very much like it will fail again.

I am not into slating rafa just for the sake of it, but as a fan of many many years i feel i have the right to criticise when it is justified, and in this case mate i feel its fully justified. if his policy had worked in the league for the last 3 seasons and this was just a blip then its not a major problem, but let me remind you of the 21 point gap last season and how our fresh players never got near milan in the champions league final despite his comments about players being fresh at the end of the season.

all it is is soundbites from rafa to mask the fact that his tactics do no not work in relation to rotation and a fear that if he know changes his policy and starts winning people will know he was wrong. its about time to swallow his pride and put the team before his pride

[bigmick]

In fairness I don't think we lost the Cl final due to tiredness necessarily, but it's true to say we weren't exactly leaping around like gazelles either. That said I think even the pro-rotationists wouldn't claim that it makes players run around more, or exude extra energy, I think the theory goes that it makes you kind of sharper, more alert, able to make better decisions etc etc.
I guess whether or not it works is best judged by how the team performed in the league, relative to how good the sum of the parts are. If you are of the opinion that us finishing 21 points behind the Champions is a true reflection on our merits, then it would be fair to say that the rotation had no effect last season. If you think we are actually a worse team than that, then you'd be thanking your lucky stars for the tinkering as it got us to the level we finished. If on the other hand you think that we are actually a better team than that, then you'd conclude that not only did the rotation not help us but it probably hindered us as well.

There are lots of arguments which have been done to death to support whichever side of the fence you sit on, but that seems to be the jist of it for me. Far from being disloyal and fickle, those of us who actually believe the team was capable of far better than it's finishing position are being kind of more happy clappy if you get my drift. I think with sensible selections at the start of last season, we were plenty good enough to launch a very serious title challenge indeed.

[stmichael]

Rafa has a point, but it loses some impact if the team is so far behind in the league that it won't realistically win the title as we enter the home straight. My preference would be for Rafa to have played his best team for the first ten league games, get established, get some momentum built, and then, if need be, introduce a bit of rotation. Rotating from the off seems a bit too stop-start, and for me, it is counter-productive.