Liverpool FC Forum

[maguskwt]

One year in isolation - come on !!

Winter 2008 means 2 years not one year. I want to smack my own forehead. And my post was how our squad has been weakening hence pointing out that since winter 2008 we had spend net 0 millions.

In the four previous years Benitez averaged £25m per year net in the transfer market. Only Chelsea spent more. Just what has Rafa got for his money in comparison to Arsenal who spent considerably less and now look a far stronger proposition than Liverpool. Same could be said of Spurs. Rafa has waisted a lot of money. Just look at our strikers as an example. Ngog is the natural replacement for Torres - you might as well ask me to do the job! Vorinin was completely out of his depth. Babel needs to quickly grow a football brain - maybe something there but as frustrating as hell. And Stevie has stopped shooting for goal? Virtually nobody in the team scores goals except for two or three players so what does Rafa do, he spends £20m on a right back who hasn't really set the world on fire except for his first couple of matches. yes Rafa really has waisted money. It doesn't matter that you can balance the books he still spent £85m on largely questionable buys.

Rafa has spent net 62 millions until now... meaning he has spent 15 millions a year net for his first 4 years not 25. Kindly refer to this... http://www.liverweb.org.uk/benitez.asp

But first you probably have to understand the meaning of "sell to buy" first...

[maguskwt]

Magus the figures have been done on here a million times. If you google it, it will take you about ten minutes to get the information (probably less because you young blokes are good at such things). It is not my job though to act as your researcher, and you have two options. Either take my word for it, or look it up for yourself. As I'm sure you've read it on the forum and the figures to back it up many times previously, and yet you STILL ask questions like "but were we Champions six seasons ago?", my guess is that the information will make no difference to you. You've managed to convince yourself up to this point that we have a wonderful manager who's doing an excellent job, so I'm not going to knock myself trying to convince you otherwise.

The facts however are all out there, make of them what you choose as usual .

BTW Mick, you're right... the facts are all there... 

[Fowler_E7]

One year in isolation - come on !!

Winter 2008 means 2 years not one year. I want to smack my own forehead. And my post was how our squad has been weakening hence pointing out that since winter 2008 we had spend net 0 millions.

In the four previous years Benitez averaged £25m per year net in the transfer market. Only Chelsea spent more. Just what has Rafa got for his money in comparison to Arsenal who spent considerably less and now look a far stronger proposition than Liverpool. Same could be said of Spurs. Rafa has waisted a lot of money. Just look at our strikers as an example. Ngog is the natural replacement for Torres - you might as well ask me to do the job! Vorinin was completely out of his depth. Babel needs to quickly grow a football brain - maybe something there but as frustrating as hell. And Stevie has stopped shooting for goal? Virtually nobody in the team scores goals except for two or three players so what does Rafa do, he spends £20m on a right back who hasn't really set the world on fire except for his first couple of matches. yes Rafa really has waisted money. It doesn't matter that you can balance the books he still spent £85m on largely questionable buys.

Rafa has spent net 62 millions until now... meaning he has spent 15 millions a year net for his first 4 years not 25. Kindly refer to this... http://www.liverweb.org.uk/benitez.asp

But first you probably have to understand the meaning of "sell to buy" first...

i think the more important point is, what has he done with the money that he has had though? especially over the past two years. The Keane and Aquilani signings are like a bad joke.

[Sir Roger]

Frankly I dont care how much he has spent any more
I dont know if hes bought bad players or they are just playing badly
Such is the confusion with Rafa that the players are bought as one type and end up playing a different role than they are used to
I wonder if a different manager would play them in their natural roles and get more out of them?
If Rafa was in charge at mank spew what would his team selection and formation be?

[Penguins]

I don't think Rafa has had that much money and I think he hasn't done worse or better than rival managers as noone is faultless.

But I still think we could do better than Rafa and it has nothing to do with his spending. I still think there are decent footballers hidden there somewhere in Aqualiani and Babel for example, but Rafa uses what he got wrongly(Lucas and Kuyt instead) and has a philosophy that won't work. And we are boring to watch to boot.

At the same time I am not convinced it is worth paying up 16 million to get rid.

[Scottbot]

It's a good post Scott. And I never said that Rafa was faultless in the transfer market. Perhaps the name Rafapologist is suitable. Because I do pity Rafa. When Ferguson can make the error of buying Veron, Djemba Djemba, Kleberson and Forlan and left  unpunished, Rafa is forever blamed for his mistakes. No manager has a perfect transfer record, but because of the fans expectations and the Owner's financial woes, Rafa gets more stick for it, to the extent of calling him clown, fat spanish waiter, killing the club, etc etc. When probably more than half the blame is on the owners (for me at least). So yeah, we want change and want new managers, if in the end we still don't challenge for the title and even do worse in europe, we will be baying for the new manager's blood again. Where will it end? We should ask ourselves whether Rafa is the main culprit here. And here's my response to your points:

- The sale of Alonso, we miss him like hell but it does seem that the problem (ie him wanting out) was down to Rafa's handling of the lad.

Do we know Alonso's motive for moving for certain?

- Replacing him with Aqualani, been done to death but let's be honest here, it fu...c...k...ed us this season. BIG TIME. Even if he works out long term.

Agreed. I am of the opinion however, that the error was made out of desperation. We can't forget that this deal was reported as us paying only 5 million up front.

- Spending the rest of the budget on Johnson (I know you will say he should have been given more money BUT if you know your not gonna get it)

Price is high but regardless he is still a good buy. England's right back.

- Going into a season with only the brittle Torres as a reliable striker. Again you will come back to the budget BUt Rafa repeatadly said he was happy with Kuyt, Ngog and Babel (despite refusing to play him in that position)

Agreed, we definitely needed another striker. Funds seemed to have run out by then. Could have signed Owen. Could have made a Huntelaar + money deal with Real for Alonso. But then again we exactly know what happened during the summer with regards to the funds.

- Losing Hyppia - I know he wanted to go but I don't believe he would have if he'd got a few more games last season. Our best defender in my opinion and we've missed him this season.

Hind sight. Never knew that the lost of Hyppia would affect us this much. The lost of form of Carragher and Skrtel was unexpected.

- Persisting with incredibly defensive teamsheets. It cost us massively in my opinion this season. Mash, Lucas, Kuyt in our midfield 5 together, throw in Carra at RB and Ngog upfront and it's no wonder we've been so toothless.

This is linked to the Aquilani transfer.

- We're still paying for older mistakes in the transfer market - Dossena, Riera (looked good but it all went to pot this season) and Babel spring to mind.

Dossena and Babel yes. Riera was a pretty good buy last season.

I agree the backing could have been better but i'm also looking past the numbers. And to be honest, particulalry as this season goes, I can't get past the negative line-ups, the baffling lack of substitutions when we're losing (or need to win), the refusal to change a sytem/selection of personnel when it's clear the current one is not working, the insistence on playing players who are clearly in a terrible run of form, and quite often this season, (and perhaps most worryingly) post match interviews from Rafa where he seems to genuinely believe that we played well when my eyes were telling me the complete opposite was true.

The squad has been losing its strength since winter of 2008 like I've mentioned. Whether you blame Rafa or the owners is really up to you.

Mags, where I struggle in this whole debate, and i'm not gonna use words like pro's and anti's and all that bollo..x coz it does my head in but answer me this. I've watched us play time and time again again this season and thought 'what the fook is he doing', Why have we started with this line-up, it's ridiculous, what's he doing in there? I've lost count of the amount of times i've been watching a game (on my own!) and I'm sat there shouting at the box at the top of my voice "make a sub Rafa, NOW! What are ya doing!?". Now i'm not talking about money available, transfer budgets, owners this or owners that, or even whether Rafa has spent wisely with the money he has. I'm talking about basic and often blatant errors (in my opinion) from the manager with the personnel he has available, with his tactics at the start of the match, with his adjustments during the game and most importantly with the style of football we are playing. Surely you have felt some of the same things watching football this season? I don't fully understand why posters who are fans of the manager seem to feel (for the most part) like they cannot criticize the manager, it's almost as if they are refusing to acknowledge problems that are there for all to see, (facts if you like!) and I think that contributes to many of the rows that happen in this place. We've gone completely stagnant mate, it's the spitting image of Houllier's last season at the club, and while Rafa still has the benefit of the doubt from many fans (it is the Liverpool way after all, I have still sung his name at the games i've been to this year, and will do so again with others around me regardless), I think it is likely his rep will reach the lows of Geds should he have another season at the helm. It feels like he is stubbornly clinging on (much as Houllier did) with no real clue as to how to turn things around. If feels and looks like the players have lost faith and I don't honestly believe that we can bounce back next season with an effort to rival (or get close to) the last time around.

[Sir Roger]

There comes a tipping point where someone cant admit theyre wrong because it will mean the floodgates will open.
If hed admitted mistakes and learned from them he would have been ok and we could have moved forward.
Instead, nothing is his fault therefore when it goes ti'ts up he will have a tidal wave of critics, including the ones who backed him.

[Penguins]

But we are controlling the games and we kept for example  Wolves at bay with only 2 shots at our goal all games.

That we couldn't string 3 passes together and had 1 shot all game is another matter...

[Kakloola]

Rafa hasnt played Gerrard properly
he's kept gerrard where he's least affective
Gerrard should be where Benayoun or Lucas play

[Ben Patrick]

Mags, where I struggle in this whole debate, and i'm not gonna use words like pro's and anti's and all that bollo..x coz it does my head in but answer me this. I've watched us play time and time again again this season and thought 'what the fook is he doing', Why have we started with this line-up, it's ridiculous, what's he doing in there? I've lost count of the amount of times i've been watching a game (on my own!) and I'm sat there shouting at the box at the top of my voice "make a sub Rafa, NOW! What are ya doing!?". Now i'm not talking about money available, transfer budgets, owners this or owners that, or even whether Rafa has spent wisely with the money he has. I'm talking about basic and often blatant errors (in my opinion) from the manager with the personnel he has available, with his tactics at the start of the match, with his adjustments during the game and most importantly with the style of football we are playing. Surely you have felt some of the same things watching football this season? I don't fully understand why posters who are fans of the manager seem to feel (for the most part) like they cannot criticize the manager, it's almost as if they are refusing to acknowledge problems that are there for all to see, (facts if you like!) and I think that contributes to many of the rows that happen in this place. We've gone completely stagnant mate, it's the spitting image of Houllier's last season at the club, and while Rafa still has the benefit of the doubt from many fans (it is the Liverpool way after all, I have still sung his name at the games i've been to this year, and will do so again with others around me regardless), I think it is likely his rep will reach the lows of Geds should he have another season at the helm. It feels like he is stubbornly clinging on (much as Houllier did) with no real clue as to how to turn things around. If feels and looks like the players have lost faith and I don't honestly believe that we can bounce back next season with an effort to rival (or get close to) the last time around.

Totally agree with this Scott.

[account deleted by request]

One question I would like the Rafapologists to answer. Everton, Birmingham, Man u etc are known for their teamspirit, determination and willingness to fight for every point, do you really believe the present Liverpool team has these qualities ....... or are we more like Citeh, a group of players that play well when we are allowed to?

[Sabre]

Do we know Alonso's motive for moving for certain?

I guess no one but Alonso does, but for what the little I talked to his dad, it was down to Rafa, and that comes from someone who doesn't hurry to blame Rafa. 

[andy_g]

Mags, where I struggle in this whole debate, and i'm not gonna use words like pro's and anti's and all that bollo..x coz it does my head in but answer me this. I've watched us play time and time again again this season and thought 'what the fook is he doing', Why have we started with this line-up, it's ridiculous, what's he doing in there? I've lost count of the amount of times i've been watching a game (on my own!) and I'm sat there shouting at the box at the top of my voice "make a sub Rafa, NOW! What are ya doing!?". Now i'm not talking about money available, transfer budgets, owners this or owners that, or even whether Rafa has spent wisely with the money he has. I'm talking about basic and often blatant errors (in my opinion) from the manager with the personnel he has available, with his tactics at the start of the match, with his adjustments during the game and most importantly with the style of football we are playing. Surely you have felt some of the same things watching football this season? I don't fully understand why posters who are fans of the manager seem to feel (for the most part) like they cannot criticize the manager, it's almost as if they are refusing to acknowledge problems that are there for all to see, (facts if you like!) and I think that contributes to many of the rows that happen in this place. We've gone completely stagnant mate, it's the spitting image of Houllier's last season at the club, and while Rafa still has the benefit of the doubt from many fans (it is the Liverpool way after all, I have still sung his name at the games i've been to this year, and will do so again with others around me regardless), I think it is likely his rep will reach the lows of Geds should he have another season at the helm. It feels like he is stubbornly clinging on (much as Houllier did) with no real clue as to how to turn things around. If feels and looks like the players have lost faith and I don't honestly believe that we can bounce back next season with an effort to rival (or get close to) the last time around.

Totally agree with this Scott.

so do i.

myself, i would speculate that many talented managers, and i include mourinho and hodgson and hiddink and o'neill and many more in that, might not be so worried about an initially limited transfer budget if they were to take over. it is plain to see for just about anyone that the squad is not in such bad shape as many people make out. we have some fine players in the first eleven - lets just look at the names for a second; gerrard, torres, mascherano, reina, agger, aquilani, johnson, aurelio, the ever 'possible' babel even - who on their day have shown that they can blow away any team in european competition. the other thing that is plain to see is that most of the time this team now seems unable or unwilling to play together with confidence and cohesion.

its a well documented fact that the arrival of a respected new manager at a club will be a catalyst for renewed belief and vigour in a team, and the majority of the kind of talented managers i mentioned would be aware that they could do much more with the current bunch of players than rafa is now - for whatever reason that might be.

using the players in their best formation, allowing them to express themselves, giving them their personal and individual belief back through good man management. all of this would, in my humble opinion, see us challenging again next season without any major changes in playing staff.

obviously, a new manager and a fat cheque book at the same time would be a dream. but we are not fooked if we only get the former.

[fivecups]

Do we know Alonso's motive for moving for certain?

I guess no one but Alonso does, but for what the little I talked to his dad, it was down to Rafa, and that comes from someone who doesn't hurry to blame Rafa. 

Do you know Xabi's dad Sabre?

[Emerald Red]

One question I would like the Rafapologists to answer. Everton, Birmingham, Man u etc are known for their teamspirit, determination and willingness to fight for every point, do you really believe the present Liverpool team has these qualities ....... or are we more like Citeh, a group of players that play well when we are allowed to?

You say the present team, as in the past few months. That's a daft thing to say considering since Rafa's time, he's instilled a backbone in the side. You only need to look at last season and past glories to see that he's instilled a never-say-die attitude, scoring dramatic late goals, coming back from virtually the dead, when in the past 15 years previous, we were well renowned to capitulating and taking a tanking if we went more than 2 goals behind for the majority of games that we did. Under Houllier, if we concieded the first goal, we were virtually resigned to a defeat.