Liverpool FC Forum

by **LFC2007** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:42 pm

john craig wrote: I hate saying it because I appreciate the work he does for the team and he was obviously deployed in a deeper role by Benitez which quite clearly doesn't play to Kuyt's strengths.

I don't think Benitez would purposely play Kuyt out of position, he plays deep because he brings others into play and helps harry opposition midfielders unlike most strikers. He is a fantastic worker, he can score goals I just feel we are lacking in creativity from wide postions and a top striker to compliment him.

by **Stu.Murph** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:00 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
john craig wrote: I hate saying it because I appreciate the work he does for the team and he was obviously deployed in a deeper role by Benitez which quite clearly doesn't play to Kuyt's strengths.

I don't think Benitez would purposely play Kuyt out of position, he plays deep because he brings others into play and helps harry opposition midfielders unlike most strikers. He is a fantastic worker, he can score goals I just feel we are lacking in creativity from wide postions and a top striker to compliment him.

What good is creativety in wide positions when you have a "centre forwrad" who doesn't attack the ball and is scared to go an get hurt to put the ball in the net.

Its all well and good blaming his lack of goals on a lack of creativety, but the fact of the matter is, he largely contributes to it himself.

by **LFC2007** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:04 pm

Stu.Murph wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
john craig wrote: I hate saying it because I appreciate the work he does for the team and he was obviously deployed in a deeper role by Benitez which quite clearly doesn't play to Kuyt's strengths.

I don't think Benitez would purposely play Kuyt out of position, he plays deep because he brings others into play and helps harry opposition midfielders unlike most strikers. He is a fantastic worker, he can score goals I just feel we are lacking in creativity from wide postions and a top striker to compliment him.

What good is creativety in wide positions when you have a "centre forwrad" who doesn't attack the ball and is scared to go an get hurt to put the ball in the net.

Its all well and good blaming his lack of goals on a lack of creativety, but the fact of the matter is, he largely contributes to it himself.

.... here we go again

Well In my observations Kuyt is more than willing to get stuck in - more so than our other strikers, his movement may not be as savvy as a natural goalscorer, but with more quality around him he will IMO score more goals - especially with more quality on the wings.

by **redsince2001** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:06 pm

RedorDead wrote:
redsince2001 wrote:
Sabre wrote:Let's make this a decent thread about Kuyt, yet another underrated player.

Kuyt has sacrificed a lot his game for the team, if he was in a team that worked for him he would have scored more. I think next season he'll prove his doubters wrong.

What it písses me off that in the mean time people underrate Kuyt, they say "buy Torres!!" who probably they don't know him well. We have a very good strikers couple in Crouch and Kuyt and both of them very sacrificed and with discipline. Of course we can improve the team upfront, and prefferably with top class players, but there's no need to underrate our current players.

It's true that a great finisher a la Owen in it's time would be handy for our team, but it's also true that our current strikers are asked to do a lot of work for the team, and it's not their decission but Rafa's.

It's not a surprise to me that one of the times in which the team played FOR crouch under a 4-4-1-1, Crouchy managed to make a hat trick.

In a nutshell, improve the squad, YES!, Respect to Crouch and Kuyt, aswell, please!

very rightly said sabre.... we already have a very good team... all we need are a couple of good wingers to deliver quality crosses into the box and if we can(if we have cash left after that) then go out and but a goal poacher like tevez/owen ..... for me the priorty signings are wingers and NOT a striker .....

I agree that we already have a good team but to say that we need a wingers over a new striker is something I don't agree with.
On the left we have Zenden, Gonzalez and a fit again Kewell and on the right Pennant and maybe Gerrard...yeah I know we could do with some depth but for me the priority has to be a striker.
Dirk Kuyt is top drawer, his work rate is unbelievable and he can strike a ball...he lacks that clinical finish which would bag him 25 goals but he has the attributes to be a big success for us....Crouch too has his qualities and both he and Kuyt would do very well with a top striker alongside them....but they need that new player to take the pressure off them and free them to do the things they do best.
Whether it's Eto'o or Owen or someone of their ilk we NEED a top finisher and we need him now.
To conclude and bring this back to the main topic I have to say that I am a big Kuyt fan, I have seen him run like crazy to save a throw in the 90th minute when we're winning 3-0 and with some luck and a good run in the team I can see him scoring 18-20 goals in the league no problem.

i'm not saying that we dont need a goal poacher ...I'm saying that that we need a couple of high quality wingers to provide decent supply to the strikers first !
our PRIORTY signings should be a couple of wingers and NOT spend all our transfer funds on a striker before we get a couple of wingers .....
I wont be surprised if rafa signed trezeguet from juve now... who signed iquanta on a five year deal today ....

wingers 1st for me ....

by **Stu.Murph** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:13 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
Stu.Murph wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
john craig wrote: I hate saying it because I appreciate the work he does for the team and he was obviously deployed in a deeper role by Benitez which quite clearly doesn't play to Kuyt's strengths.

I don't think Benitez would purposely play Kuyt out of position, he plays deep because he brings others into play and helps harry opposition midfielders unlike most strikers. He is a fantastic worker, he can score goals I just feel we are lacking in creativity from wide postions and a top striker to compliment him.

What good is creativety in wide positions when you have a "centre forwrad" who doesn't attack the ball and is scared to go an get hurt to put the ball in the net.

Its all well and good blaming his lack of goals on a lack of creativety, but the fact of the matter is, he largely contributes to it himself.

.... here we go again

Well In my observations Kuyt is more than willing to get stuck in - more so than our other strikers, his movement may not be as savvy as a natural goalscorer, but with more quality around him he will IMO score more goals - especially with more quality on the wings.

So how does that make him a better player and one thats good enough to play upfront for Liverpool FC on a regular basis?

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:14 pm

john craig wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:Am I missing something here or have you been living under a rock, lad? Zenden and Gonzales have both been told that they are surplus to requirements. I'm sure they're still on the books but it's clear that Rafa wants them out the door ahead of next season. That leaves Kewell for the left side--a potentially fantastic player but a definite sicknote. We deffo need a quality left midfielder.

I thought that was Zenden out of contract now? I'd like to think that's him finished at LFC but I remember a few worrying quotes from Rafa towards the end of the season about how he hadn't decided on Zenden's future and how he thinks Zenden's a good player to have in the dressing room.

I wasn't aware that Gonzalez was told he was surplus to requirements, but I'm not surprised if he has.

I had heard that Rafa told Zenden that he could look for another club the day after the CL Final. I hope I wasn't imagining that. As for Gonzales, we were negotiating with Betis for him the last I'd heard. Sabre can confirm and perhaps update us, I suspect?

by **Stu.Murph** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:15 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
john craig wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:Am I missing something here or have you been living under a rock, lad? Zenden and Gonzales have both been told that they are surplus to requirements. I'm sure they're still on the books but it's clear that Rafa wants them out the door ahead of next season. That leaves Kewell for the left side--a potentially fantastic player but a definite sicknote. We deffo need a quality left midfielder.

I thought that was Zenden out of contract now? I'd like to think that's him finished at LFC but I remember a few worrying quotes from Rafa towards the end of the season about how he hadn't decided on Zenden's future and how he thinks Zenden's a good player to have in the dressing room.

I wasn't aware that Gonzalez was told he was surplus to requirements, but I'm not surprised if he has.

I had heard that Rafa told Zenden that he could look for another club the day after the CL Final. I hope I wasn't imagining that. As for Gonzales, we were negotiating with Betis for him the last I'd heard. Sabre can confirm and perhaps update us, I suspect?

Betis Manager was sacked...

There's your update.

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:16 pm

Stu.Murph wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
john craig wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:Am I missing something here or have you been living under a rock, lad? Zenden and Gonzales have both been told that they are surplus to requirements. I'm sure they're still on the books but it's clear that Rafa wants them out the door ahead of next season. That leaves Kewell for the left side--a potentially fantastic player but a definite sicknote. We deffo need a quality left midfielder.

I thought that was Zenden out of contract now? I'd like to think that's him finished at LFC but I remember a few worrying quotes from Rafa towards the end of the season about how he hadn't decided on Zenden's future and how he thinks Zenden's a good player to have in the dressing room.

I wasn't aware that Gonzalez was told he was surplus to requirements, but I'm not surprised if he has.

I had heard that Rafa told Zenden that he could look for another club the day after the CL Final. I hope I wasn't imagining that. As for Gonzales, we were negotiating with Betis for him the last I'd heard. Sabre can confirm and perhaps update us, I suspect?

Betis Manager was sacked...

There's your update.

Just for looking to sign Gonzales? Harsh!

by **Stu.Murph** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:19 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
Stu.Murph wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
john craig wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:Am I missing something here or have you been living under a rock, lad? Zenden and Gonzales have both been told that they are surplus to requirements. I'm sure they're still on the books but it's clear that Rafa wants them out the door ahead of next season. That leaves Kewell for the left side--a potentially fantastic player but a definite sicknote. We deffo need a quality left midfielder.

I thought that was Zenden out of contract now? I'd like to think that's him finished at LFC but I remember a few worrying quotes from Rafa towards the end of the season about how he hadn't decided on Zenden's future and how he thinks Zenden's a good player to have in the dressing room.

I wasn't aware that Gonzalez was told he was surplus to requirements, but I'm not surprised if he has.

I had heard that Rafa told Zenden that he could look for another club the day after the CL Final. I hope I wasn't imagining that. As for Gonzales, we were negotiating with Betis for him the last I'd heard. Sabre can confirm and perhaps update us, I suspect?

Betis Manager was sacked...

There's your update.

Just for looking to sign Gonzales? Harsh!

The Betis Chairman obviously seen him "play".

Quite why Rafa ever thought that lad could "play" was beyond me though.

Absoloute waste of time, space and money.

by **Sabre** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:20 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
john craig wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:Am I missing something here or have you been living under a rock, lad? Zenden and Gonzales have both been told that they are surplus to requirements. I'm sure they're still on the books but it's clear that Rafa wants them out the door ahead of next season. That leaves Kewell for the left side--a potentially fantastic player but a definite sicknote. We deffo need a quality left midfielder.

I thought that was Zenden out of contract now? I'd like to think that's him finished at LFC but I remember a few worrying quotes from Rafa towards the end of the season about how he hadn't decided on Zenden's future and how he thinks Zenden's a good player to have in the dressing room.

I wasn't aware that Gonzalez was told he was surplus to requirements, but I'm not surprised if he has.

I had heard that Rafa told Zenden that he could look for another club the day after the CL Final. I hope I wasn't imagining that. As for Gonzales, we were negotiating with Betis for him the last I'd heard. Sabre can confirm and perhaps update us, I suspect?

Rafa's words about Zenden were the classic words of respect to a professional player that you're going to show the way to the exit.

You put first the lubrication, and then you fire him. It was just that, from my view.

And yes, Betis deal is closed, as far as I could read a couple of days ago... I'll take a closer look later to the Betis website (I didn't because most of you didn't give a fúck about that news :laugh:

)

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:26 pm

Here's the story on Zenden and Gonzales from Soccernet. Of course, it could just be paper talk but it's so plausible I just assumed it was true!

The Gonzales move to Betis was also rumoured in the Liverpool Echo but the price quoted there was 3.5 million pounds.

--------
Updated: May 24, 2007
Ruthless Rafa begins summer clear-out

Less than 24 hours after Liverpool's Champions League final failure, boss Rafael Benitez was already planning his clear-out.

The Liverpool boss has told midfielder Bolo Zenden he is free to talk to other clubs with his contract due to expire, while Chile winger Mark Gonzalez is on the brink of a £5m move to Real Betis.

And with offers likely to be on the table for striker Craig Bellamy, who could not even get off the bench in last night's 2-1 defeat here by AC Milan, the Welsh forward could also have played his last game for the club.

With Robbie Fowler and Jerzy Dudek already released, this is just the start of a major overhaul of Benitez's squad.

More will soon follow with the Spanish manager having told the club's new owners Tom Hicks and George Gillett that it will need £100m-plus to revamp a squad that finished third in the Premier League but were miles behind champions Manchester United.

Benitez has already outlined his plans to the new regime, and he was brutally frank in outlining Liverpool's future this morning at the team hotel ahead of the flight back to Merseyside.

He said: 'We must not waste this moment. We must move quickly to sign our number one targets.

'If we wait we will be chasing the players who are second and third on our list. We need to change the structure of the club on and off the pitch.

'We must make progress, and make it now to take us up two or three levels straight away.'

Benitez has his scouting department working overtime, despite the fact that the club's chief scout Frank McParland is joining Bolton and former Liverpool coach Sammy Lee.

But Benitez will not want to mark time in the wake of the Athens defeat, and he said: 'There will be several players leaving. We will wait for offers.

'I have been told by the new owners that they will back my plans. But when you look at the champions Manchester United spending £20m on a midfield player, and we have been paying just £8 to £9m for our strikers, you know what must be done.

'We must spend big and spend now. Our fans know what we need to do and so do I. We need to pay the price needed for each position.

'We have a deal nearly completed for Gonzalez and I have told Bolo (Zenden) that he can talk to other clubs. We know the situation we have now.

'We have finished 21 points behind United and 15 behind Chelsea.

'They will both spend big money again and we will just be marking time. If we continue the way we are we will be fighting for fourth spot again at the end of the season, and we cannot have that all the time.'

He added: 'Everybody can see what we must do to compete at the top level and we must move as quickly as possible not to lose this opportunity.

'Two seasons ago we got 82 points, a club record, and we could not get into the top two. If we do not improve now we will always be fighting for fourth spot.

'It is obvious we do not have enough players for nine months competing in four competitions.'

by **Sabre** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:33 pm

Mark Gonzalez just said 3 days ago that a 6 year deal is made with Betis under the condition that they were not relegated. And they haven't been. No info about the official fee, but I don't think it's 5M pounds, but more likely, 5M euros.

by **JC_81** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:46 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
john craig wrote: I hate saying it because I appreciate the work he does for the team and he was obviously deployed in a deeper role by Benitez which quite clearly doesn't play to Kuyt's strengths.

I don't think Benitez would purposely play Kuyt out of position, he plays deep because he brings others into play and helps harry opposition midfielders unlike most strikers. He is a fantastic worker, he can score goals I just feel we are lacking in creativity from wide postions and a top striker to compliment him.

Personally mate, I think you're chatting complete nonsense if you think Kuyt was simply playing deep not because those were his instructions, but because it is his natural game.

He was an out-and-out striker for Feyenoord, not a withdrawn striker, thats why he scored so many goals over there. He certainly didn't play as a withdrawn striker in the first half of last season so his instructions obviously changed.

I also agree with Stu, Kuyt doesn't attack enough balls in the box, especially in the 6-yard area. He's not got the skill to be a playmaking 2nd striker in the mould of someone like Bergkamp so he's going to need to become more productive in the box if he's to be a success here.

by **Bammo** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:18 pm

Kuyt isn't the type of player that can create something out of nothing. He needs someone to supply him with chances. With the right creative wingers his goal scoring could improve. That doesn't mean he should be expected to suddenly hit 30 goals a season but he will be good enough to play alongside a poacher.

by **LFC2007** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:26 pm

john craig wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
john craig wrote: I hate saying it because I appreciate the work he does for the team and he was obviously deployed in a deeper role by Benitez which quite clearly doesn't play to Kuyt's strengths.

I don't think Benitez would purposely play Kuyt out of position, he plays deep because he brings others into play and helps harry opposition midfielders unlike most strikers. He is a fantastic worker, he can score goals I just feel we are lacking in creativity from wide postions and a top striker to compliment him.

Personally mate, I think you're chatting complete nonsense if you think Kuyt was simply playing deep not because those were his instructions, but because it is his natural game.

He was an out-and-out striker for Feyenoord, not a withdrawn striker, thats why he scored so many goals over there. He certainly didn't play as a withdrawn striker in the first half of last season so his instructions obviously changed.

I also agree with Stu, Kuyt doesn't attack enough balls in the box, especially in the 6-yard area. He's not got the skill to be a playmaking 2nd striker in the mould of someone like Bergkamp so he's going to need to become more productive in the box if he's to be a success here.

In my view you are chatting nonsense too. He plays wherever the manager wants him to play.

At Feyenoord he played in a number of positions, even on the wing at times. He comes deep to help out when needed, that is part of his game. He is a centre forward by nature, just a very versatile one. The goals he scored at Feyenoord are not disimilar to the ones he has scored with us - he just hasn't scored as many. That cannot be put entirely down to him, he needs supply and the supply has not been great - especially the quality of it, not to mention it's only his first season in England. Drogba scored only 4 more in his first season - playing 6 more games than Kuyt - in a Chelsea side well in supply of top quality wingers.

Kuyt does attack balls, if you watch his games for Feyenoord you will clearly see that about half of his goals came from inside the box - and plenty were instinctive goals within the 6 yard box. He has got on the end of balls in the box for us, vs. Arsenal, Newcastle, Reading - he needs to do more of that I agree and if you watched him at Feyenoord you will know he is more than capable of doing so. He scores a range of different goals, because he is a very versatile player. He just needs to do more of it and with better players next year and less rotation I think he will.

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