Liverpool FC Forum

by **squeek** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:10 pm

Basically, it depends.

If you want Gerrard in all out attacking mode, pair him with Mascherano. I suppose if you're playing a counter attacking game, you would want Alonso and Gerrard in the center, as Alonso can play the longer quick pass and Gerrard can run into open space with the ball, or get on the end of a move.

If you're protecting an away goal in Europe, play 5 in midfield etc.

by **maguskwt** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:57 pm

Anon_Villan wrote:I don't understand your point about the PENALTY. Would you not have expected that to be given in your favour? Don't even bother answering that cause you all know you would have. It was definitely a PENALTY.

my point is that it is not necessary for the referee to give a penalty if it's an unintentional handball... a free kick could be given instead...

my point is you making a big deal out of and denying that it was a free kick, when it was indeed a legitimate offence by petrov to be given a free kick... and when it comes to your penalty you think it can be nothing but a penalty when instead it can be a free-kick for unintentional handball...

pls go and check out fifa rules...

my point is you in a clear state of sour grapes...

by **bigmick** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:28 pm

Well I've been one of the advocates of the Mascherano/Gerrard axis on here for some time, mainly because I think Alonso has allowed himself to slip into mega comfort mode. That said, I thought the Spaniard was our best player on Saturday and I was hugely encouraged by his performance. If he plays like that, then in my opinion he is both a better player and a better bet than Mascherano.

I particularly liked the way Xabi was prepared to break the chains which keep him within five yards of the centre-halves. It was nice to see Reo-coker and not Carew closing him down, and it was nice to see Gerrard able to come deep and pick it up as well as bombing forward.

I myself am not advocating both central midfielders bombing forward as it weakens the team defensively as many have pointed out. I would though be all for a little more, and I use the word advisedly, rotation of the central pairing whereby they are able to interchange positionally a little more. This is what I have alluded to in the past where Xabi plays for his partner a little more, as well as Bamaga pointed out Gerrard plays for him. If opposition defences had to assume there was at least the possibility that Xabi might commit forward from time to time (and that obviously Gerrard would fill in at the same moment) then it makes the pairing work for me. Similarly, if Makeleli has to keep passing Gerrard onto Ballack as the captain drops in to take it off the centre halves and pick up an encroaching Alonso instead, the pairing works for me. As it has been in the past, we have almost played a diamond with no width, Alonso sitting and Gerrard playing as an inside forward.

For me Saturday was a lot better from Xabi. If he continues to rediscover a slightly more ambitious side to his game, he would be a starter every game. Mind you, so would Sissoko and Gerrard would then be back on the right but that's another argument entirely

by **bigmick** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:40 pm

Anon_Villan wrote:Didn't realise Barry outright dived. Fair enough he can be criticised, but its out of character.

No sour grapes, I am just countering some of the arguments on here with a different viewpoint. Liverpool are a much better team than us and that showed at time, but I don't think this was the walkover some people have suggested.

Just as you say on the balance of play Liverpool were better overall, I can reasonably justify that you rode your luck to win. Balance of play doesn't win games, we all know that.

In fairness to the Villa fan I thought the free-kick was generously awarded and that Petrov could consider himself unlucky. That said it was over 30 yards out so it's hardly comparable to getting a dodgy penalty or seeing one of your players incorrectly sent-off.

In the main I thought Riley had a reasonable game (as he often does TBF when he's not refereeing Man Utd or Chelsea) and called most things about right.

Barry did dive but as the Villa fan pointed out, it would appear to be out of character. All players do it from time to time, even Gerrard goers to ground with minimal if any contact sometimes.

Overall though I thought Liverpool deserved the win (and in fairness to the bloke he kind of concedes that). I was a little troubled by our inability to kill Villa off when well on top, and once we had conceded the penalty and they had drawn level I guess you could say we were a little fortunate to get out of jail. Hopefully it's a lesson learned for our team.

by **red37** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:13 pm

The core of the team is of little concern at the moment, if relatively at all given the number of options available. Whether that consists of Alonso/Gerrard or any permutation of the 4 main players in midfield, isn't exactly worth fretting over. The real issue (imo) still, is the efficacy of both flanks, the service from and the interaction with the rest of the unit as a whole.

The weakness lies in the attacking nouse of the flanks versus their defensive duties when not in possession. Therefore adding extra duties to the one attack minded player in the team that is willing to sacrifice his role outside the jurisdiction of its purpose. Gerrard. Who then becomes the very fulcrum of all the debate in the first place. The lad is doing too much work, some of which should be done by others. Is that through the responsibility of being the captain, or is it through necessity for one reason or another.

Example: We see Riise, struggling to make an impact (nobody has mentioned the instance where Gerrard clearly mouthed the phrase 'Wake up' to him) Quite possibly on more than one occasion. Yes, it wasn't his customary role given the omissions from the squad...but it is where we usually see him at his most effective. Because frankly as a defender, the lad leaves a lot to be desired. I was expecting to see trees uprooted while he enjoyed the day pass granted him due to Kewell's absence. Sadly not to be. Arbeloa provided some degree of a safety net in any case ensuring no raw nerves were exposed. This time.

On the other flank, Finnan isn't so well protected by his outlet and will invariably set off on a ten- twenty yard run outside his post only to turn sharply back on himself in search of the nearest teammate, for what reason? No one is taking up intelligent space...As a defender he is usually as solid as they come, as an attacking Full back he can swing in a decent cross when there is a target man anticipating it - but thats about it. Thats all he is asked to do in the system he is deployed in. The rest of the forward momentum of the ball when played to feet in particular, should be supported by the other attackers. Or more than likely by one of Gerrards runs.

Put it this way, 'pretty much' the entire defensive line and the Goalie are dead certs. Same as the central midfield where there are a profusion of quality variations. Up front now, there is an emphasis on the depth of options available and an acceptable blend of Pace, Height, Strength and now Creativity in equal measure. (sufficient enough?) will be determined at a later stage.

But the two areas in deficit for me, remain the wide positions. Whether that issue (if there really IS one) outside of my own interpretation, resolves itself naturally over the course of several games, or indeed if there is yet to be further tweaking of the squad in order to address that. We shall see.

Many key areas of the squad were enhanced over the summer, it would be a shame to see profligacy reign supreme over such potential - because it truly is there this time.

by **LegBarnes** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:38 pm

stmichael wrote:Alonso did his job well, an almost purely defensive one like many of his teammates. It is difficult to set any tempo when your team is set up to defend and counterattack, when your full backs do not cross the half way line and the team plays deep for fear of getting caught by the pace of their strikers, when your goalkeeper plays it long all the time or when your centerbacks first option is the long ball.

In fact he was playing a Mascherano kind of role, I thought. Which is why I think Masch might be Gerrard's regular partner in the centre when we play 4-4-2, with Alonso to partner Momo or Masch when Gerrard's further ahead or on the right.

Thing i like bout our midfield at the moment is that not one of them are the same this is great because i am sure they can all teach each other aspects of there game and fingers crossed they all can improve more if only they would teach momo to pass i be a happy man and he be worth 25 mil easy .

:lookaround

i think the only thing we lacked in villa game was width and if we could have streched the defence alot more pulled the full backs out side more we would have had alot more gaps for gerrard to run into and would have made 1-2 easyer chances.

by **66-1112520797** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:48 pm

I think your quite right there Red in what you say, and I'd agree that the flanks need more work on than any other area of the field.

As Benitez stated though after the game, he wanted to use Premiership players experiance and I think thats why we had Riise and Pennant down both flanks. Both are steady in their roles but when selected as they were only highlights the lack of threat needed from either widemen. Between those two there isnt enough attacking quality, and or movenment or pace from them. I was surprised Yossi didnt make the bench as I think he'll add something extra when going forward, he's a clever player but again the con in playing him over Pennant or Riise is that he not be able to do the defensive stuff aswell as even Pennant or Riise. But sometimes in football those things have to be risked to find a happy medium between defence and attack.

I think Rafa was sensible in his selection and went for a tried and tested team, more so than an experimental one. That could of gone t.its up on him.

The only other obvious concern which is probably even higher on the agenda than the one just mentioned is our lack of ruthlessness in front of goal. I mean even with Pennant and Riise in the side we still had enough chances in the game to kill Villa off. That was slightly worrying for me and we nearly paid the price for it, and we'd all of be singing a different tune had Gerrard not found the top corner. I think after seeing Babels cameo on Saturday hopefully he will help out with this current concern we have, he came almighty close and probably should of scored after just coming on, and he also worked another opening for himself and had a powerful shot saved by Taylor. Babel offered in 20 minutes what Pennant doesnt in 90, the ability to advance and produce end product, he'll been an interesting player to watch I think.

by **whylongball?** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:25 am

Alonso will only be good if his fitness improve. He has everything, including tackling ability. But if you have a fitness of 40 ys old you cant play against 20yr old boys. Its the balance of brain and physicality
As for the penalty and freekick, they were rightly awarded full stop

by **zarababe** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:29 am

Watched the whole game on setanta

(try saying that aftyer a few bevvies) - have to say we looke excellent and in control. Torres showed flashes of good play control pass and strength, he'll be in there fighting and babel looks excellent - have to say folks, we look the real deal ! GET IN THERE REDMEN - STEVIE G IS DETERMINED !!!

by **LegBarnes** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:35 am

Bamaga man wrote:I think your quite right there Red in what you say, and I'd agree that the flanks need more work on than any other area of the field.

As Benitez stated though after the game, he wanted to use Premiership players experiance and I think thats why we had Riise and Pennant down both flanks. Both are steady in their roles but when selected as they were only highlights the lack of threat needed from either widemen. Between those two there isnt enough attacking quality, and or movenment or pace from them. I was surprised Yossi didnt make the bench as I think he'll add something extra when going forward, he's a clever player but again the con in playing him over Pennant or Riise is that he not be able to do the defensive stuff aswell as even Pennant or Riise. But sometimes in football those things have to be risked to find a happy medium between defence and attack.

I think Rafa was sensible in his selection and went for a tried and tested team, more so than an experimental one. That could of gone t.its up on him.

The only other obvious concern which is probably even higher on the agenda than the one just mentioned is our lack of ruthlessness in front of goal. I mean even with Pennant and Riise in the side we still had enough chances in the game to kill Villa off. That was slightly worrying for me and we nearly paid the price for it, and we'd all of be singing a different tune had Gerrard not found the top corner. I think after seeing Babels cameo on Saturday hopefully he will help out with this current concern we have, he came almighty close and probably should of scored after just coming on, and he also worked another opening for himself and had a powerful shot saved by Taylor. Babel offered in 20 minutes what Pennant doesnt in 90, the ability to advance and produce end product, he'll been an interesting player to watch I think.

To true but dont you think we should be make space more with off the ball movement , bringing more width to the game .
Also i think we have many half chances but very few good chances in games and of course we all know this game at this level is about confidence and strikers need that more then any thing and a bit of luck.

I think if we played a 4-3-3 and had the left and right forward gun-ho rampaging down the wings we would scared the :censored:

out of 16 out of the 20 teams in the prem thing i love about the 4-3-3 formation is you always have 2 stikers int he box and a winger on what ever side the ball is on this always leaves you 1 extra man running intot he box from midfield or 2 if you wanna be very agressive its a very good system.

I think also v chavski we wont see any thing more then a 4-4-2 i think it will be when we next get a lesser team of sorts at home untill we see rafa try a very attackig set up mabye the return leg with talous.

by **RedBlood** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:56 am

Anon_Villan wrote:
stmichael wrote:That game shows we've got a set of balls. It's not very often we've recovered from a blow like that so quickly and so emphatically. We've had to get ourselves back in the game there with no time left at all. It was a very, very good result for us to get full stop, let alone after being pegged back so undeservedly.

I am slightly concerned that we were hanging on at the end when we should have steamrollered them but the sharpness is going to come. Villa are whinging about the refereeing at the end. It was a foul. It just is! It was a bodycheck and he left the leg stuck out. I don't care what that bespectacled idiotic leprachaun is spouting, it's a foul. And it was great to see it fly into the top corner like that as well.

It was no more than we deserved after total dominance for 90 minutes. Villa are seriously poor and they are going to be mid table mediocrity again in my view. I hope so anyway. I can't stand Martin O'Neill. Aided by the hapless Petrov, we took a stranglehold on the game from about the 15 minute mark and we ran them ragged all the way up until half time. Torres should have scored but at least we didn't regret it. He looked sharp enough. The goals will come. Kuyt did well to get back in there and Laursen rifled it in. No idea what he was thinking, but I'll get over it.

The second half was more even but we did well enough to cope with the pressure Villa exerted. Carra defended brilliantly - I don't care if he gave the penalty away, his defending was top notch and he was my man of the match. Only Young looked like he would give problems and we had our hands full.

Babel came on for Pennant (before he got sent off!) and looked very, very dangerous with a mixture of pace, strength and a direct attitude. I've had my doubts about him so far. I was very impressed today, I thought he was excellent when he came on.

The Villa goal was a penalty - no arguments from me. It's unfortunate but it's a penalty. It sums Villa up really - scrappy and fortunate. That nasty diver Barry, who I now have no respect for, slotted it away and it looked like another 2 points dropped against an abject team, but thankfully Gerrard pulled it out the hat.

It wasn't always great but it's a win and we needed that badly. On to Toulouse, where we need a good strong performance.

Funny that St. Michael cause I've lost even more respect for your saintly captain after another dive to add to the list. Shame Barry didn't award himself a freekick like MBE Stevie Me did. Was it actually a dive? Didn't look like it live and I haven't seen it since. It seems quite churlish to persist with the idea that the freekick given at the end was fair, when even your most biased pundits have admitted it was . But lets not get bogged down in that.

Liverpool played really well for 15 minutes in the first half and hit us on the break in the second, which in the end was just about enough - though you were fortunate to win with an own goal and a gift.

Funnily enough I do agree that Carragher was Liverpool's MOTM, which must show that you didn't enjoy "total dominance for 90 minutes".

For what its worth I think Liverpool could win the league this year. Torres reminded me of a young Juan Pablo, in a positive sense. I think they're very similar players.

I'd lastly like to apologise to any of the Liverpool fans who were caught up in any trouble after the game yesterday. I think the mixture of 2 hours more drinking time, a fairly contentious game, countless away fans in home sections and a lack of control with the new seating arrangements all contributed.

you Fu.cking muppet he didnt go to ground so how can that be a dive?

and i didnt see you complain when you was awarded a penalty for ball to hand on carra, there was no danger he would have simple cleared the ball if it had not hit his hand, it did not prevent a chance for any of your players

but thats ok isnt it?

and barry litterally threw himself to the ground like he had been shot even though infact he had not been touched

by **66-1112520797** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:18 am

To true but dont you think we should be make space more with off the ball movement , bringing more width to the game .
Also i think we have many half chances but very few good chances in games and of course we all know this game at this level is about confidence and strikers need that more then any thing and a bit of luck.

Yes definately, and as you rightly stated we should carve out better opportunities, even still thouigh it would be nice to see more movement and ruthlessness in front of goal, especially.

by **Anon_Villan** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:26 am

You saying Gerrard didn't buy that free-kick? Still? Don't start shouting your mouth off cause you're on an internet forum, I'm not trying to wind anyone up, I'm just putting my view (which has calmed considerably since Saturday evening) against all of yours. Quite a few Liverpool fans have admitted it wasn't a freekick, Alan Hansen was one of them.

Look at Carraghers own reaction to that penalty, he knew that it would be given and rightly so. If Cahill did that at the other end would you have wanted a penalty? Of course you would. I don't really understand your point about no players being right behind him, you can't control a ball with your hand no matter who's around in football. Though maybe Gerrard should try that next time Mike Rileys reffing you.

Likewise if Petrov had ran, not very fast, into a stationary Gerrard (didn't even move his arm towards him), then stopped, flung his arms around and bawled at the ref you wouldn't have thought it was a freekick - because it wasn't.

Barry did not throw himself down like he had been shot, he skinned about 4 players, lost control and took the easy option of falling over. I've just seen it again and it wasn't very clever, but he seemed quite embarrassed by it - as your hardman captain should be.

Any other insults or football :censored:

to spout RedBlood?

by **red37** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:41 am

My honest opinion?

Fortunate award for the free kick - despatched with consummate skill of the highest aplomb. Nonetheless, an 'attempt' at an obstruction (which RIGHTLY gerrard made an issue of) Come on, none of em are angels mate...they pretty much all do it. Your lads would have done the same.

Unlucky for Carragher, with the bounce of the ball off the turf (but definate) penalty - again, unstoppable from Barry.

You don't always get what you deserve in a game...but in this case Liverpool did. Which may or may not sit well with the Villa lads. To sum up, yes - Gerrard made the best of a situation. But i don't blame him one bit. As we are all aware Luck plays a role if you have intentions of winning the title. Liverpool havn't always been dealt their fair share in that department. But them's the breaks.

by **66-1112520797** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:47 am

The free kick was fortunate I'll admit that, but didnt Owzat remind us that Nobby Solano scored from a simiar incident a couple of seasons back ?

Anyway whatever the views, I think we deserved the win. We were better than Villa on the day and warranted all three points.

BTW I think Barry did go down like he'd been shot, that was a terrible dive and one which deserved a yellow card.

Liverpool FC Forum

ASTON VILLA VS LIVERPOOL - The countdown begins

Who is online