Liverpool FC Forum

by **66-1112520797** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:42 pm

Some fair points made but I would disagree about Gerrard "always" being more than capable in the middle. Gerrard's athleticism has long masked tactical naivety, particularly defensively, where he used to leave massive gaps in central midfield in his forward forays. Alonso was never a defensive or holding midfielder in the classic Mascherano/Hamann mould, but more of a deep lying playmaker similar to Pirlo, or I suppose Carrick. Xabi's tackling has improved but his passing and positioning are his major strengths.

Most of Gerrard's Liverpool career in central midfield was alongside Hamann. This gave Gerrard a lot of scope to move forward, and Didi's defensive prowess, as well as Houllier's general defensive stance worked for Gerrard at that time. Under Benitez, and with Didi not playing alongside him as often as Alonso, Gerrard's defensive shortcomings (largely tactical/positional) were often exposed.

In saying that then would you agree that Mascherano would be better suited to playing alongside Gerrard in the middle?

By the way I agree that Alonso is more of a 'deep lying playmaker' and that Mascha and him are two different players in a way, which is why I think the Argie is probably more compatible with Gerrard than Alonso is.

by **Owzat** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:01 pm

Unfortunately I don't have time to comment fully on the result or stop long at all, but did anyone else remember an injustice in the same fixture two seasons ago? Villa very much won a free kick and scored to deny us the win, they would have been lucky to get a point on Saturday so that may have denied them one point compared to the two we lost two seasons ago.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/e...rem/4047621.stm

"Up to that point Villa had been completely devoid as an attacking force, so much so that on 35 minutes Carlton Cole was replaced by Luke Moore.

But after referee Mark Halsey ruled Carragher had fouled Gavin McCann, Solano curled a dipping shot into the roof of the net"

A bit of editing

"But after referee Mark Halsey Mike Riley ruled Carragher Petrov had fouled Gavin McCann Steven Gerrard, Solano Steven Gerrard curled a dipping shot into the roof of the net"

by **red37** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:05 pm

Karma...De Ja Vu.....Great Strike! = 3 points.

by **Sabre** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:14 pm

Some fair points made but I would disagree about Gerrard "always" being more than capable in the middle. Gerrard's athleticism has long masked tactical naivety, particularly defensively, where he used to leave massive gaps in central midfield in his forward forays. Alonso was never a defensive or holding midfielder in the classic Mascherano/Hamann mould, but more of a deep lying playmaker similar to Pirlo, or I suppose Carrick. Xabi's tackling has improved but his passing and positioning are his major strengths.

Most of Gerrard's Liverpool career in central midfield was alongside Hamann. This gave Gerrard a lot of scope to move forward, and Didi's defensive prowess, as well as Houllier's general defensive stance worked for Gerrard at that time. Under Benitez, and with Didi not playing alongside him as often as Alonso, Gerrard's defensive shortcomings (largely tactical/positional) were often exposed

So if I assume that latter statement is true and the defensive shortcomings were more often exposed, how come we receive less goals under Benitez than before?

As for Alonso is not a real holding midfielder, it's not the first time I read it. It's true that Alonso's tackling has improved in England, and now is nowhere near to be a poor tackler. If one guy doesn't lose the position, is a decent tackler, has height to head the long balls that come from defence and the oppo keeper, what exactly lacks to be a holding midfielder? Not much in my view. Just because he has the vision and a good passing, it doesn't mean he's not a holding mid.

Alonso was good enough to save singlehandedly in 6 games his former team, and to boost his former team to the second place in the league. And he was good enough to make an impact in his first year in Liverpool as a holding mid. The defensive shortcoming of Gerrard are not such, it's as simple as adding 2+2: if you have a player like Gerrard that likes entering and lurking the opposition box, i-e, the kind of play that lead to the winning free-kick, YOU NEED ONE player covering his back. You can't possibly expect Pennant, or one of the 2 strikers making this covers, and ALonso does this well. Mascherano can do it well aswell, but I disagree Alonso does a bad job in this, our defensive record speaks for itself.

People seems to be wanting all midfielders join the attack, but when you see the 4 last CL teams, you see the winner playing with Gatusso, Seedorf, you see a strong couple of midfielders in Chelsea too, my point is that top teams rarely have a weak team defensively in the midfield and most of them have 1, if not 2 players mostly in defensive role in the midfield.

by **stmichael** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:21 pm

Alonso did his job well, an almost purely defensive one like many of his teammates. It is difficult to set any tempo when your team is set up to defend and counterattack, when your full backs do not cross the half way line and the team plays deep for fear of getting caught by the pace of their strikers, when your goalkeeper plays it long all the time or when your centerbacks first option is the long ball.

In fact he was playing a Mascherano kind of role, I thought. Which is why I think Masch might be Gerrard's regular partner in the centre when we play 4-4-2, with Alonso to partner Momo or Masch when Gerrard's further ahead or on the right.

by **maguskwt** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:41 pm

bigmick wrote:
maguskwt wrote:drogba destroyed agger in the CL 1st leg... good thing he redeemed himself in the 2nd leg...

Sorry but not for me. As I remember for the goal which was debated at some length in the immediate aftermath of the game, Riise went missing leaving the whole left side channel open. The ball got played in there and Drogba half muscled and half skilled Agger out of it before playing Cole, who had been criminally allowed to drift in behind by Arbeloa. Other than that, in a Liverpool team who were significantly second best on the night, Agger was by no means the worst performer.

Those clamouring for the reintroduction of Hyppia against Drogba would do well to remember the 4-1 defeat at Anfield of a couple of years back. Now that day, one of our defenders did get destroyed and it wasn't Agger.

The big fella would be just about the best centre-forward of his type in World football at the moment and as somebody said earlier, he will cause everybody problems if they get the ball to him in the right areas.

I would actually be more concerned about our right side. As somebody alluded to earlier, Finnan got skinned a couple of times yesterday bb Ashley Young. It wouldn't exactly be a Sixth Sense style twist in the plot, were Steve Finnan not to look quite so reliable when he has Jermaine Pennant playing in front of him rather than Steven Gerrard.

you misunderstood me big mick...

when I said agger was destroyed by drogba I didn't mean the build up to the goal... the goal had nothing to do with agger's aerial ability...

but the goal was agger's and arbeloa's fault mainly... if riise was at fault he can't be completely blamed... because liverpool were pressing... riise had been overlapping... when kuyt lost the ball a chelsea defender threaded a clever pass towards drogba between riise and zenden ... yes riise was caught out of position but he cannot be blamed completely because liverpool were pressing...and if zenden can pull his own weight riise wouldn't have to overlap and assist him... now agger had alot of time in the world to deal with drogba... if he had a no-nonsense attitude like carra he'd have tackled the ball out of play... but he didn't and he got out-muscled... the first fault... now when drogba was carrying the ball... cole was running towards the goal... he was shadowing arbeloa and overtook him, arbeloa didn't do anything about it... the second fault...but anyway the goal is another discussion...

ok back to agger being destroyed comment... what i meant was the whole game chelsea had been aiming long balls at drogba... agger was given the duty of marking him... if his positional sense and aerial ability were better he could have just headed the ball back in front (which is not easy i know...but which is also what hyppia used to do when he was at his prime)... instead agger keeps backing off... letting drogba head down to on-rushing attackers like joe cole, lampard etc... all of chelsea's attacks were through drogba... and considering the whole defence were struggling means that agger wasn't doing well...

don't get me wrong...I'm an agger fan and by no means do i call for hyppia replacing him as a regular CB... but agger does need to improve his positioning and aerial ability and i believe that in certain games maybe hyppia should play instead...

destro wrote:Did he ? I must have missed all the HEADED chances that Drogba had in that game, did he force a save,hit the woodwork have a header cleared of the line ?

He may have out classed him for the set up for Cole but what does that have to do with Aggers arial ability or Carras ?

yes he did... defensive aerial ability is not just about whether the opposition striker had any headed chances... it is also about clearing the ball before it reaches to the forward...see my above explanation...

by **Anon_Villan** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:43 pm

stmichael wrote:That game shows we've got a set of balls. It's not very often we've recovered from a blow like that so quickly and so emphatically. We've had to get ourselves back in the game there with no time left at all. It was a very, very good result for us to get full stop, let alone after being pegged back so undeservedly.

I am slightly concerned that we were hanging on at the end when we should have steamrollered them but the sharpness is going to come. Villa are whinging about the refereeing at the end. It was a foul. It just is! It was a bodycheck and he left the leg stuck out. I don't care what that bespectacled idiotic leprachaun is spouting, it's a foul. And it was great to see it fly into the top corner like that as well.

It was no more than we deserved after total dominance for 90 minutes. Villa are seriously poor and they are going to be mid table mediocrity again in my view. I hope so anyway. I can't stand Martin O'Neill. Aided by the hapless Petrov, we took a stranglehold on the game from about the 15 minute mark and we ran them ragged all the way up until half time. Torres should have scored but at least we didn't regret it. He looked sharp enough. The goals will come. Kuyt did well to get back in there and Laursen rifled it in. No idea what he was thinking, but I'll get over it.

The second half was more even but we did well enough to cope with the pressure Villa exerted. Carra defended brilliantly - I don't care if he gave the penalty away, his defending was top notch and he was my man of the match. Only Young looked like he would give problems and we had our hands full.

Babel came on for Pennant (before he got sent off!) and looked very, very dangerous with a mixture of pace, strength and a direct attitude. I've had my doubts about him so far. I was very impressed today, I thought he was excellent when he came on.

The Villa goal was a penalty - no arguments from me. It's unfortunate but it's a penalty. It sums Villa up really - scrappy and fortunate. That nasty diver Barry, who I now have no respect for, slotted it away and it looked like another 2 points dropped against an abject team, but thankfully Gerrard pulled it out the hat.

It wasn't always great but it's a win and we needed that badly. On to Toulouse, where we need a good strong performance.

Funny that St. Michael cause I've lost even more respect for your saintly captain after another dive to add to the list. Shame Barry didn't award himself a freekick like MBE Stevie Me did. Was it actually a dive? Didn't look like it live and I haven't seen it since. It seems quite churlish to persist with the idea that the freekick given at the end was fair, when even your most biased pundits have admitted it was :censored:

. But lets not get bogged down in that.

Liverpool played really well for 15 minutes in the first half and hit us on the break in the second, which in the end was just about enough - though you were fortunate to win with an own goal and a gift.

Funnily enough I do agree that Carragher was Liverpool's MOTM, which must show that you didn't enjoy "total dominance for 90 minutes".

For what its worth I think Liverpool could win the league this year. Torres reminded me of a young Juan Pablo, in a positive sense. I think they're very similar players.

I'd lastly like to apologise to any of the Liverpool fans who were caught up in any trouble after the game yesterday. I think the mixture of 2 hours more drinking time, a fairly contentious game, countless away fans in home sections and a lack of control with the new seating arrangements all contributed.

by **maguskwt** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:02 pm

Anon_Villan wrote:
stmichael wrote:That game shows we've got a set of balls. It's not very often we've recovered from a blow like that so quickly and so emphatically. We've had to get ourselves back in the game there with no time left at all. It was a very, very good result for us to get full stop, let alone after being pegged back so undeservedly.

I am slightly concerned that we were hanging on at the end when we should have steamrollered them but the sharpness is going to come. Villa are whinging about the refereeing at the end. It was a foul. It just is! It was a bodycheck and he left the leg stuck out. I don't care what that bespectacled idiotic leprachaun is spouting, it's a foul. And it was great to see it fly into the top corner like that as well.

It was no more than we deserved after total dominance for 90 minutes. Villa are seriously poor and they are going to be mid table mediocrity again in my view. I hope so anyway. I can't stand Martin O'Neill. Aided by the hapless Petrov, we took a stranglehold on the game from about the 15 minute mark and we ran them ragged all the way up until half time. Torres should have scored but at least we didn't regret it. He looked sharp enough. The goals will come. Kuyt did well to get back in there and Laursen rifled it in. No idea what he was thinking, but I'll get over it.

The second half was more even but we did well enough to cope with the pressure Villa exerted. Carra defended brilliantly - I don't care if he gave the penalty away, his defending was top notch and he was my man of the match. Only Young looked like he would give problems and we had our hands full.

Babel came on for Pennant (before he got sent off!) and looked very, very dangerous with a mixture of pace, strength and a direct attitude. I've had my doubts about him so far. I was very impressed today, I thought he was excellent when he came on.

The Villa goal was a penalty - no arguments from me. It's unfortunate but it's a penalty. It sums Villa up really - scrappy and fortunate. That nasty diver Barry, who I now have no respect for, slotted it away and it looked like another 2 points dropped against an abject team, but thankfully Gerrard pulled it out the hat.

It wasn't always great but it's a win and we needed that badly. On to Toulouse, where we need a good strong performance.

Funny that St. Michael cause I've lost even more respect for your saintly captain after another dive to add to the list. Shame Barry didn't award himself a freekick like MBE Stevie Me did. Was it actually a dive? Didn't look like it live and I haven't seen it since. It seems quite churlish to persist with the idea that the freekick given at the end was fair, when even your most biased pundits have admitted it was . But lets not get bogged down in that.

Liverpool played really well for 15 minutes in the first half and hit us on the break in the second, which in the end was just about enough - though you were fortunate to win with an own goal and a gift.

Funnily enough I do agree that Carragher was Liverpool's MOTM, which must show that you didn't enjoy "total dominance for 90 minutes".

For what its worth I think Liverpool could win the league this year. Torres reminded me of a young Juan Pablo, in a positive sense. I think they're very similar players.

I'd lastly like to apologise to any of the Liverpool fans who were caught up in any trouble after the game yesterday. I think the mixture of 2 hours more drinking time, a fairly contentious game, countless away fans in home sections and a lack of control with the new seating arrangements all contributed.

... this whole post is a joke... gerrard dived? did you see him going to the ground? he was impeded and the referee gave the free kick...how many yards out was that? he beat the keeper fair and square... are you gonna cry about that? carragher's handball wasn't intentional but the referre gave a PENALTY... not a free kick but a PENALTY...

by **Anon_Villan** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:10 pm

Yeah I did see him going to ground after running into a stationary Petrov's arm, then getting up waving his arms around and using his oversized ego to bully Mike Riley. Now I'm not the only person saying this, most are. Granted it was a class freekick, but that shouldn't have mattered. And no I'm not going to cry about it.

I don't understand your point about the PENALTY. Would you not have expected that to be given in your favour? Don't even bother answering that cause you all know you would have. It was definitely a PENALTY.

by **Ace Ventura** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:26 pm

Anon_Villan wrote:Yeah I did see him going to ground after running into a stationary Petrov's arm, then getting up waving his arms around and using his oversized ego to bully Mike Riley. Now I'm not the only person saying this, most are. Granted it was a class freekick, but that shouldn't have mattered. And no I'm not going to cry about it.

I don't understand your point about the PENALTY. Would you not have expected that to be given in your favour? Don't even bother answering that cause you all know you would have. It was definitely a PENALTY.

Obviously a bit of sour grapes goin on here mate. Yeah the freekick award was harsh as Petrov does get a touch on the ball, although i dont think Gerrard did much wrong to be honest, to me he genuinely tried to pass Petrov to get a shot on and didnt dive.
The penalty was a penalty Carragher got caught out a bit and there was nothing wrong with that decision.
Barry's was a clear dive, nobody touched him, if you see the replay it was totally different than what Gerrard did.

Its obvious that you may feel cheated as the freekick decision was harsh but at the end of the day it would of been a travesty had you took a point from that game.
I am not saying we were totally on top for the whole 90 minutes but even someone with claret and blue tinted specs on could surely struggle to say we didnt deserve the 3 points.

by **Sabre** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:34 pm

Funny that St. Michael cause I've lost even more respect for your saintly captain after another dive to add to the list. Shame Barry didn't award himself a freekick like MBE Stevie Me did. Was it actually a dive? Didn't look like it live and I haven't seen it since.

Yes it didn't look like a dive live because you're a Villa fan and were supporting your team in an important match.

But if you have a cold shower, and watch the highlight, you can observe how there's no contact whatsoever, in fact, it's a ridiculous dive.

by **Anon_Villan** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:37 pm

Didn't realise Barry outright dived. Fair enough he can be criticised, but its out of character.

No sour grapes, I am just countering some of the arguments on here with a different viewpoint. Liverpool are a much better team than us and that showed at time, but I don't think this was the walkover some people have suggested.

Just as you say on the balance of play Liverpool were better overall, I can reasonably justify that you rode your luck to win. Balance of play doesn't win games, we all know that.

by **The_Rock** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:00 pm

squeek wrote:Most of Gerrard's Liverpool career in central midfield was alongside Hamann. This gave Gerrard a lot of scope to move forward, and Didi's defensive prowess, as well as Houllier's general defensive stance worked for Gerrard at that time. Under Benitez, and with Didi not playing alongside him as often as Alonso, Gerrard's defensive shortcomings (largely tactical/positional) were often exposed.

Thats why i keep repeating that gerrard & mascherano has to be our 1st choice CM pairing.....

No offense to alonso...he is a great player and all....but they have played together for 3 years now and they still don't look comfortable when playing with each other.

Gerrard is at his absolute best when he has someone anchoring behind him....and that is mascherano at this moment.

Have to say Alonso also looks better when he plays with sissoko or mascherano partnering him.

I just can't put my finger on it....In a perfect world gerrard and alonso will be the best midfield pairing in the world..... but they seem to get in each other's way when playing together.

I hope i am wrong though...but for gerrard to be effective, think mascherano would make a better partner...

by **Sabre** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:49 pm

No offense to alonso...he is a great player and all....but they have played together for 3 years now and they still don't look comfortable when playing with each other.

When there's smoke it means there's fire somewhere I guess.

Many people say this, or similar things, but I fail to see why you don't see them comfortable together.

IMHO they haven't played that much together, we've seen all kind of combinations in the midfield pair with men like Sissoko, Mascherano and Hamman the first year Alonso was here. Gerrard has been asked to do a number of roles, both in the right as an attacking midfielder (second striker).

It's this season (with a deeper squad) IMHO when we're going to see more often the Gerrard-Alonso, and Gerrard-Mascherano pairings, and we'll be able to discuss it with more arguements.

In the mean time I'd really love that someone explained why Alonso and Gerrard were not comfortable for instance in the last game. The mistakes both of them made were typical of this stage, but I cannot see they're unconfortable together.

In fact, I think their coach TRIED to control the midfielder and accumulated men there, Reo Cocker pursued Alonso all the game, and Gerrard was very watched aswell, nevertheless our midfield pair dominated that part of the pitch quite comfortably, except the first 15 minutes.

by **adamnbarrett** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:25 pm

I understand why some say that it should be Mascherano and Gerrard in the middle but for me, it's got to be Gerrard and Alonso.

One of the reasons Liverpool have failed in the past away from home especially is that when the wingers do not deliever, we are forced to play through the middle of the pitch.

Now, if we've got Gerrard and Mashcerano in the middle, Mascherano is going to be defensive and he's not the most creative anyway. So we put all our hopes on Gerrard to create something because that leaves him being the only creative midfielder (if the wingers are not performing.) This is very very easy for the opposition to crowd out the single creative player and choke the source to the strikers. This leaves us having to play long balls over the top which never work for us.

But, if we've got 2 creative central midfielders (i.e. Gerrard and Alonso) that are moving around creating opportunities. Then the opposition have more trouble trying to deny 2 players space and time rather than one.

The problem though is that this may sacrifice us defensively but Alonso creates from deep (so he can cover defensively) and Gerrard creates further forward.

Either way, I agree with Sabre on this point:

In fact, I think their coach TRIED to control the midfielder and accumulated men there, Reo Cocker pursued Alonso all the game, and Gerrard was very watched aswell, nevertheless our midfield pair dominated that part of the pitch quite comfortably, except the first 15 minutes.

That is a fact. But because there was so much creativity in there Aston Villa were always going to be stretched because they were tracking two players. But if it was Mascherano and Gerrard then they would focus on Gerrard.

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