Liverpool FC Forum

[LFC2007]

Indeed, I raised a point which I've explained already and see no need to elaborate on. Reading it is the answer.

You're welcome to have the last word.

[66-1112520797]

Well stop trying to have the last word on it

Go to bed, you dont seem to argumentative today/night.

[Rush Job]

Wow 8 changes and for the most part, especially the first half, we managed to look fluid and cohesive, i thought that was impossible? Just goes to show the myth that it can ONLY be achieved by playing lots of games together, and the training sessions all week amount to nothing is in fact bollox. Another reminder for the Oh so negative fickle brotherhood who actually believe Rafa doesn't care about the league games, he brought on SG and Torres when it was 1-1, and at a stage when we were not really under the cosh, no need to do that unless ofcourse he felt like winning the game.

Well done Crouch, play like that, give your all in each game and you might just get picked more often, Arbeloa did well, as did Finnan, either of them should fill in the right back position for Tuesday, allowing Carra back into CB, because his lack of pace will be exposed again if he stays at RB. Good debut for Plessis, was neat and tidy, nothing spectacular, but did his job. Decent result given the situation, could have sealed a win in the first half with a bit more conviction.

Agreed a very encouraging performance, isn't it funny how Wenger manages to avoid criticism for not selecting key players in Adebayor, Hleb and to a lesser extent Clichy in a game that has now quite possibly ended their title challenge. Where were Wenger's priorities eh? Did he 'give up' on the league by not selecting his strongest side? (often an accusation made against Rafa). Prior to kick off I noted that some of the usual suspects criticised Rafa for his team selection, saying he only cares about Europe etc. Why would Rafa bring on Torres and Gerrard when it was 1-1 with the game well and truly there for the taking, just for a laugh? Or perhaps he actually wanted to win the game in order to sustain our lead over Everton? Just a thought.

Well said mate.

[maguskwt]

Crouch and Torres up front together...didn't play competively up front together until 25th September 2007. Liverpool won that game 4-2 against Reading in the Carling Cup. Torres scored three times. Since then they've been played up front with each other against Marsielle, we lost 1-0, against Bolton which we won 4-0 (torres scoring 1) against Reading, we lost 3-1, against Luton which we won 5-0, against Sunderland in which we won 3-0 (torres and crouch scored).

So out of the six games those two have started up front together for us this season, we've won four games, scored 17 goals and between them Crouch and Torres have scored six of them and you're not impressed? With those two up front we're scoring nearly three a game and because defenders have to worry about both forwards it leaves much more space for Gerrard. 4-4-2 would easily work with these two up front.

Marsielle was a fluke result and the Reading game Benitez decided to accept defeat with half an hour to go. But in the other four games, these two up front have proven they can score, they can create chaces and openings for others to score and we usually win with these two up front. So how you're not convinced is beyond me.

well john... I thought you don't like stats but now I'm seeing you use them more and more and in a very subjective way to your advantage... 

First of all qualitatively speaking, I don't like the torres/ crouch partnership. Never have. This is because Crouch takes up Torres space in the middle which renders Torres more or less useless. And also Crouch reflexes are as quick as my grand aunt's, he's neither quick enough or intuitive enough to play one-twos with torres like gerrard is doing at the moment. You said we've scored 17 goals and crouch and torres scored six between them? BETWEEN them??? 6/17 that's simply not good enough.

Secondly changing back to 4-4-2 when 4-2-3-1 is working is an absolutely knee-jerk reaction. Crouch played very well against arsenal and he has a history of doing so. My opinion is that he's a very limited and specialist player only very effective in certain situations... somehow against arsenal's defenders he seems to be very effective. Against ferdinand and vidic he's almost useless... so too against Terry and whoever chelsea plays nowadays. If I'm not wrong we played 4-2-3-1 after we got knocked out of the FA cup by barnsely starting with Inter. since there our record reads like this:

8 wins (include 2 wins against inter)
2 draws (the 2 arsenal games)
1 loss (old trafford)

now people say we play against 10 man against Inter. But the fact is that even before they got a man sent off we were containing them well and even playing them off the park with this formation. people say this 4-2-3-1 is untested against top teams. what are inter milan and arsenal now? And the games you mention we played crouch and torres together and did so well were against which teams? reading, bolton, luton, sunderland? They are top teams aren't they? oh and we lost at reading and marseille too? with torres rendered as a bystander because of crouch (my opinion) ? with 4-2-3-1 we lost to the mancs with a man down. the difference is not too  much is it?

I'm not convinced just because of that gbjh. first of all I don't like the crouch/torres combo qualitatively. 2nd I don't want us to change back to 4-4-2 when 4-2-3-1 is clearly working. Having said that I can understand that it makes good sense to consider playing crouch against arsenal since he's clearly causing problems for their defenders and I don't even mind crouch as a lone striker up front in the expense of torres. But I do not condone to partnering Crouch and Torres and reverting back to 4-4-2 because if we do so there's a chance that we will be overun by arsenal. Arsenal was playing 4-4-2 in the first half of the first leg with van persie and adebayor up front and we were containing them comfortably. Only when they changed to 4-5-1 by sub-ing Walcott for van persie we were pressured alot. I'm afraid if we play 4-4-2 our midfield will be overun by theirs. In the long run if we stick to 4-2-3-1, torres has to be the first choice and crouch's chances will be limited.

[bigmick]

Wow 8 changes and for the most part, especially the first half, we managed to look fluid and cohesive, i thought that was impossible? Just goes to show the myth that it can ONLY be achieved by playing lots of games together, and the training sessions all week amount to nothing is in fact bollox.

What a strange thing to say, that playing with cohesion can ONLY be achieved by playing lots of games together. Of course that's not the case and I'm not sure anybody ever said it was.

The point surely is that if you want to play consistently well, if you want cohesive and rhythmic performances consistently, then I and many like me believe you need to select the team in a consistent fashion as well. Make eight changes every game and every now and then you'll play well. It doesn't mean you should do it in every game though, because as we've discovered over the last four years, not in one match, it simply doesn't work.

If you are going to draw such adamant conclusions from one game, you might just as well say lets rest Torres and Gerrard every single week because we play better without them     

No, we're on the right path now, and we mustn't be diverted by one good performance with a multitude of changes to the team. A return to Rafa style at this stage or indeed at any stage would be a disaster.

[Seano Kop]

Great result. We rested 8 of our best 11 players (imo) and still got a 1-1 draw at the Emirates. Very happy with Lucas and Plesses debut was fantastic. Crouch was very, very good up front, and had Voronin had any skill, we would have snatched it. Still a great result though.

Only thing is, what's up with Pennant, is he injured?

[Owzat]

Our B team did well against their B team, should really have won it as we had enough chances and they were clutching at penalty shouts again to claim victory should have been their's. Crouch played well up front, he was given plenty of space and time on the ball so before anyone shouts the odds at me, yes he played well, but I've always said he can we is given space. And I've always said he can strike some really good goals, problem is he doesn't get enough and when he doesn't hit one sweetly it is costly.

Pennant had a poor game, conceded the free-kick from which they scored and Crouch is so poor in the air he was never likely to win the header as he wasn't earlier when Toure could and maybe should have scored. We missed some good chances, they were ordinary until a few spells second half (seems to be we manage a good 45 minutes against them) Plessis played well on his debut, Rafa's gamble paid dividends. I thought his decision to keep the three key players in from the previous game was key, Reina, Carra and Skrtel in the centre of the defence. Without Hleb and Adebayor they look half the side, and despite murmurs from some that we wouldn't win, I be I was one of the majority in thinking we could and should have won this one.

Many make a big noise about "one man teams", well take three key players out of any side and it isn't as effective. For the mancs they would look much poorer without Ronaldo, Rooney and Vidic/Rio, Arsenal without Fabregas, Hleb and Adebayor. We looked the better side and rested as many key players as they did - Gerrard and Torres vs Hleb and Adebayor. We put paid to Arsenal's slim chances at the league, fergie won't need to rest anyone and Chelsea are clear second in the race now, and that must sting. Wenger took a massive gamble, he thought his weakened side would beat us easily and paid the price.

But the job isn't done yet, we can't relax and think we have Arsenal where we want them, they will put out a full strength side on Tuesday with it being their only serious prospect of a trophy - and that still with four games to go!

[NANNY RED]

Only thing is, what's up with Pennant, is he injured?

No lad hes just Sh.it

He needs to stay out of Faces in Essex

[LFC2007]

It doesn't mean you should do it in every game though, because as we've discovered over the last four years, not in one match, it simply doesn't work.

Our longest winning stretch in the EPL two seasons ago would suggest otherwise.

[112-1077774096]

and that run came when he settled on a side and pretty much stuck to it iseem to recall

[LFC2007]

Well it's certainly not as I recall it, he used a number of different players in that period.

[66-1112520797]

It doesn't mean you should do it in every game though, because as we've discovered over the last four years, not in one match, it simply doesn't work.

Our longest winning stretch in the EPL two seasons ago would suggest otherwise.

Us not challenging for the league over the past four seasons would suggest otherwise LFC2007.

Whatever the stats are, I dont know. But what I do know is that those stats are still not good enough to make us contenders.

Rotation has been largely flawed IMO.

Yes for instance like yesterday for example you may get what I percieved the odd freak performance, from a team that has never played together. And I can say that as we've never played Lucas or Plessi togther with Riise, Benayoun and Pennant infront.

Likewise you will get the odd dissapointing performance or result  or even a few with a settled team. This always happens in football.

But by and large I believe the results will more often than not go your way playing a settled and cohesive team, as a recent run of results have shown us, of course excluding the dissapointing performace at Old trafford.

IMHO you've much more chance of winning with a settled team than a rotated one. And nothing else anyone can say will lead me to belive otherwise.

[HacksawJimDuggin]

I only managed to see the highlights last night on BBC but it looked like Crouch played very well. It looked to me like the Gunners centre halves didn't know what to do with him (with them both challenging for headers etc). In this form Crouch has to be an option for Tuesday night. He looked a handful yesterday. We'll almost defo start with Torres but Crouch would be an ideal 2nd half sub when we are hopefull defending a lead and may need to revert to a "longer game".

Considering the team we had out the boys did very well against a pretty strong (almost full strength) Arsenal team.

[LFC2007]

It doesn't mean you should do it in every game though, because as we've discovered over the last four years, not in one match, it simply doesn't work.

Our longest winning stretch in the EPL two seasons ago would suggest otherwise.

Us not challenging for the league over the past four seasons would suggest otherwise LFC2007.

Well that assumes that we would have challenged for the title but for rotation, which as I've said (IMO) is utter bollocks.

No, my point was, it proves that under Rafa we have achieved a sustained period of league form whilst using a number of players (I don't know the comparitive stat's re "Rafa style" within this period).

[112-1077774096]

Well it's certainly not as I recall it, he used a number of different players in that period.

well check the team selections with those from earlier that season and all will be revealed, i know how much you like to google and prove people wrong so it should be fun for you