Liverpool FC Forum

Feeney wrote:Sorry, but the way Torres went off was a crock of sh*t to me - no way that lad injured, he'll 'conveniently' miss the Spain game and be fully fit for the Scum game - no bad thing, admittedly, but with him off we lost a huge chunk of potential to win the game

Im sorry but are you saying Torres faked it?
What the fk is next, Gerrard didnt need an op he just felt like putting his feet up. You lot arent even trying now.

Thewaykokid wrote:Does anyone else see a 3-0 loss to Manchester united in a fortnight?

ConnO'var wrote:The way we played yesterday was UTTER rubbish... and having restrained myself for the 1st 5 games, but after the performance yesterday, I cannot keep this inside anymore.

The way the team was set up was bizarre. We sign a 20 million quid striker and put him out in the left of midfield when we had a natural left footed defender/midfielder in in Aurelio. Played 3 central midfielders without an ounce of creativity between them, though to be fair, Xabi has it but hasn't showed it for yonks.

No width, no heart, no fecking ideas.

Substitutions were nothing short of bizarre against a team we should be attempting to win against rather than play for a draw. If we carry on like this against the big 3, heaven help us....

Last year's excuses are already being drawn up to explain away this utter tripe we're passing off as football. (5 games and still unbeaten, the team is gelling, our best players not playing, the other big 3 are also dropping points..... etc, fecking etc)

After shelling out god only knows how much money, on new players and persisting with this tactical genius for years with no tangible, quantifiable improvements in the league, there is NO way we can justifiably say that the man is deserving of a "beyond reproach" status.

This is now his team.... only Gerrard and Carra are left of Houllier's legacy. So all this "players aren't good enough" bull sh!te doesn't wash either. He bloody well bought them and he's molded them into a team playing with his defensive tactics.

He'd BETTER JOLLY WELLget them to play like a team whose remotely interested in playing for LFC.

We fans pour our hearts and souls into the team and this is how we're repaid? With dross and heartless and clueless performance?

In Rafa We trust? Me @rse.....

pretty much sums it up for me.

the fact that we ended the game with one striker, who scored one goal in france last year and has never played a first team game for us spoke volumes. yesterdays substitutions bordered on houllier when he eventually lost the plot.

when torres went off (a very strange injury to be fair, there seemed to be no talk, no physio came on, he just walked off to the doctor) we had the option of moving either keane or kuyt (who i believe is supposed to be a striker, or so i was told) up front and bring on either babel or el zhar.

anyone else still think we set up to win games? we set up to not lose, does rafa realise the 3 points for a win was brought in to try and get teams to win games rather than settle for draws.

tactical genius 


i have read the past pages but i am sure they are full of 'we are unbeaten' bollox and the usual 'rafa is god' tripe

peewee wrote:i have read the past pages but i am sure they are full of 'we are unbeaten' bollox and the usual 'rafa is god' tripe

I presume you mean have not read?
If so you should, you`d be pleased because its just moan after winge after fkin moan, you`ll fit right in, hell you might even make a friend.   ( joke mate )
The board has become overrun with negativity.
Fall out Peewee your job is done.

ruskiy playmaker wrote:Some people need to calm down.  Once we sign Riera, I'm sure that Keane's not going to play on the wings.

Rush Job wrote:

peewee wrote:i have read the past pages but i am sure they are full of 'we are unbeaten' bollox and the usual 'rafa is god' tripe

I presume you mean have not read?
If so you should, you`d be pleased because its just moan after winge after fkin moan, you`ll fit right in, hell you might even make a friend.   ( joke mate )
The board has become overrun with negativity.
Fall out Peewee your job is done.

yeas mate, not read   


as for the negativity mate, i think people are just reflecting what they see on the pitch

Rush Job wrote:

peewee wrote:i have read the past pages but i am sure they are full of 'we are unbeaten' bollox and the usual 'rafa is god' tripe

I presume you mean have not read?
If so you should, you`d be pleased because its just moan after winge after fkin moan, you`ll fit right in, hell you might even make a friend.   ( joke mate )
The board has become overrun with negativity.
Fall out Peewee your job is done.

ConnO'var wrote:The way we played yesterday was UTTER rubbish... and having restrained myself for the 1st 5 games, but after the performance yesterday, I cannot keep this inside anymore.

The way the team was set up was bizarre. We sign a 20 million quid striker and put him out in the left of midfield when we had a natural left footed defender/midfielder in in Aurelio. Played 3 central midfielders without an ounce of creativity between them, though to be fair, Xabi has it but hasn't showed it for yonks.

No width, no heart, no fecking ideas.

Substitutions were nothing short of bizarre against a team we should be attempting to win against rather than play for a draw. If we carry on like this against the big 3, heaven help us....

Last year's excuses are already being drawn up to explain away this utter tripe we're passing off as football. (5 games and still unbeaten, the team is gelling, our best players not playing, the other big 3 are also dropping points..... etc, fecking etc)

After shelling out god only knows how much money, on new players and persisting with this tactical genius for years with no tangible, quantifiable improvements in the league, there is NO way we can justifiably say that the man is deserving of a "beyond reproach" status.

This is now his team.... only Gerrard and Carra are left of Houllier's legacy. So all this "players aren't good enough" bull sh!te doesn't wash either. He bloody well bought them and he's molded them into a team playing with his defensive tactics.

He'd BETTER JOLLY WELLget them to play like a team whose remotely interested in playing for LFC.

We fans pour our hearts and souls into the team and this is how we're repaid? With dross and heartless and clueless performance?

In Rafa We trust? Me @rse.....

peewee wrote:

Rush Job wrote:

peewee wrote:i have read the past pages but i am sure they are full of 'we are unbeaten' bollox and the usual 'rafa is god' tripe

I presume you mean have not read?
If so you should, you`d be pleased because its just moan after winge after fkin moan, you`ll fit right in, hell you might even make a friend.   ( joke mate )
The board has become overrun with negativity.
Fall out Peewee your job is done.

yeas mate, not read   


as for the negativity mate, i think people are just reflecting what they see on the pitch

LiverpoolMadman wrote:

ruskiy playmaker wrote:Some people need to calm down.  Once we sign Riera, I'm sure that Keane's not going to play on the wings.

If that's happen ... Good news but what happen he's injure or he's "sucks" ...

Scottbot wrote:My take on the game;

Positives

- I would have taken the draw at the start of the game and the draw wasn't a bad result missing our 2 best players

- Dossena had his best game for us. I've given him quite a bit of stick already but the lad put in a few excellent balls and was generally solid all-around today.

- Masch was back with a bang. Comfortably our best player in the first half. We've really missed his energy and agression and it was good to see us competing for the 2nd ball again.

- Carra was excellent. How the fook did Laursen win MOM!?!? He had to mark the woeful Ngog for 80 mins while Carra dealt with Carew alll by himself. Real Captains performance

Negatives

- Tactics killed the game in many ways. We came to spoil and so did Villa. We got a decent point but lose against the mancs in the next game and it won't look so good.

- Rafa's subs. Brought on Ngog and the lad looked completely and utterly out of his depth. I quite liked what i saw of this kid in pre-season but today proves how irrelevent the pre-season really is. Took off our only goal threat (Keane) for Yossi and left Babel on the bench all game. Left me a bit baffled.

- Torres. Please get fit lad, please.......

Pretty much sums things up for me as well, Scott.  A draw's not the worst result in the world but that's all we came to get, despite Villa looking dire and very beatable.

I was completely baffled by the way Rafa set us up today, with Keane wide left for much of the first half.  As Rushie has said, the obvious switch when Torres came off was to move Keane central and bring Babel on but no...he persisted with Keane on the left for what felt like ages.  He finally moved him central and stuck Lucas out there (sort of) and, presto, we looked much better.  Of course, that was until he hauled him off for Benayoun.  Completely and utterly baffling tactics from Rafa and it leaves a sour taste. 

Effes wrote:A good post on RAWK:

"I'm just going to throw this out there.......

... and say we haven't addressed our problems over the close season. At all.

We haven't had a genuine winger since McManaman - I know it, you know it, in fact there's probably people in Siberia who know it.

Now then, playing narrow in the midfield is acceptable if you have two quality, attacking full-backs, who are quick enough and good enough to bomb up and down the pitch for 90 minutes, twice a week. We don't have that. We don't have a Clichy - Sagna/Eboue combination. In fact, we don't even have an Evra - Neville, where one will push forward at every given opportunity and provide overlapping quality, whilst the other can put in a very good cross from almost anywhere in the opponents half. What we have instead is Dossena, who is willing to push forward but doesn't appear to cross a ball that well, and Arbeloa. When Arbeloa signed, I was confused - we had Finnan on the right who was doing Neville's job - putting in good crosses on a regular basis. Arbeloa was shifted to left back, and on the back of keeping Messi in a straightjacket at the Camp Nou, excelled there for a while. He looked adventurous, quick, and generally like a ball-playing, attacking full-back.

I don't know what's happened since those first few months, but his confidence seems to be completely drained - the amount of times he has space in front of him, or is in a good crossing position, only for him to turn back inside and play the safe option is hugely frustrating. With Finnan apparently resigned to the bench or available for a transfer, that makes Arbeloa our first-choice right-back. If that had have been the case after his first few months here then I'd have no problem with it whatsoever, but at the moment he's playing well within himself and that doesn't help anybody.

Going back to the midfield, and the lack of width - it's been our biggest problem for as long as I can remember, and we've not even come close to solving it over the past 5 years. We don't have anybody willing to beat a man on the outside and put a cross in. None of Benayoun, Babel, Aurelio, Kuyt, Gerrard or El Zhar are wingers, yet they're the guys filling our wide positions. Pennant is probably the closest we've got, but for whatever reasons he always seems to lack confidence - we know he can beat people and put a half-decent cross in, he just never does.

Today we started with two centre forwards out on the wings - and say what you like about Keane and Kuyt being 'versatile, clever, willing to play anywhere for the team', but they are both strikers. It's as simple as that. Neither of them are rapid, neither are fantastic at beating their man in a 1v1 situation, neither of them are great crossers of the ball. Yet today, they're expected to do the job of a winger. Confused yet? I certainly am. It's starting to feel like the good old days of having Heskey as a defensive centre-forward, playing out on the left hand side of a midfield of Murphy, Gerrard, Hamann, and McAllister - and it's frustrating to see. I don't want to get too deep into the Robbie Keane thing, firstly because it's a whole new can of worms, and secondly because I'm not quite sure why we actually signed him. But that's a completely different discussion.

Apparently the Riera deal is close to being finalised. I don't know much about the lad at all, so all I'm hoping for is that he is prepared to run down the outside of a full-back and put crosses in from the byline on a regular basis. We can but hope.

So moving on from the complete lack of width from both the defence and midfield, we are left with two problems that have been the cornerstone of the Benitez era - a complete lack of atacking fluidity and a dreadful approach to set-pieces.

Under Benitez, we've had two players capable of playing the old no10 role - Luis Garcia and Yossi Benayoun. Luis was fantastically frustrating, capable of both the sublime and the ridiculous, and Yossi isn't far short. The thing is though, they're both victims of a system that just doesn't suit them. Last year we had untold success with Gerrard playing behind Torres - the first time we've really tried the one-up-top with a supporting attacker free to roam. That position is made for players like Benayoun and Luis Garcia, but instead, too often they're asked to try and be wingers. It doesn't work. Yossi can change a game from the centre of the field, if you give him the ball. He's a clever player with an eye for a pass, but his crossing is woeful. I cringe whenever I see him line up out wide - we may as well play with 10 men, as he just isn't a threat. The game just passes him by. He needs to be in that free role that Gerrard utilised so brilliantly last season, floating around and going wherever he likes. The problem with that is, now we've switched back to a 4-4-2, there is no free role.

With no free role, and a flat midfield four, comes defensive solidity. With defensive solidity rarely comes free-flowing attacking play. Our squad as a whole isn't quick enough to play a counter-attacking game, so we need to attack as a unit. When we play 4-4-2, the two central midfielders are defensive, even when Gerrard plays there. He spends more time in the centre circle than around the opposition box, which is no use to anyone as he's one of the best attacking midfielders in the world. So we have a four-man midfield, two of whom are playing as anchors, and the other two - who are now relied upon to provied creativity from the wings - who are either centre forwards, central midfielders, or full-backs being asked to play out wide. It's no wonder the team is so static. Today we started with two forwards out wide, who both naturally do their best work in and around the edge of the penalty area, and finished the game with a full-back and a central attacker out there. So, for the whole game today, we didn't have a single player at any given time who is naturally used to playing out wide - so more often than not, the team is static and moves break down.

I don't see why we've gone from the Gerrard-Torres through-the-middle combination that worked so well last year, back to a rigid 4-4-2, when we clearly don't have enough quality going forwards for it to work (or rather, I do see why we've changed, it's the Robbie Keane thing, but like I said that's a whole new discussion). The team is still too static, nobody moves to show for the ball, and there just aren't enough options and runners when Gerrard and Alonso pick up the ball in the middle of the park.

Is it starting to remind you of the Houllier era at all yet? Now don't get me wrong - I completely admire Rafa Benitez, and wouldn't want anybody else at all running the club, but I'd like to see more attacking gusto from him. Bringing on a full-back when we're after a goal isn't going to work. Playing said full-back on the wing certainly isn't. We've seen it over the past few years with Riise, I hope we don't start to see it as often with Aurelio too.

Talking of Fabio Aurelio, when he signed he was rumoured to have an immense left peg and a venomous free kick. What a crock of rubbish. Nobody at Liverpool Football Club has been able to strike a decent dead ball since the days of Berger and Redknapp. Hamann was a danger to whoever was in the wall, Riise was a danger to whoever was in row 32, and Gerrard's going to be in danger himself if he keeps taking free-kicks that haven't been teed up for him first. He's great at striking a moving ball, but striking direct free-kicks and corners? Give it up, you can't do it. Neither can Alonso, neither, apparently, can Aurelio. But that's OK, at least in terms of the corners - because we only have one player capable of attacking the ball in the air anyway. Step forward Mr Sami Hyypia. Take a bow. You can attack headers well. Messrs Carragher, Skrtel, Agger, Gerrard, Plessis, and also previously Crouch... go and watch videos of Sami. See how he starts at the edge of the box, then runs towards the goal? See how he jumps? See how he heads the top of the ball so it doesn't go flying over the crossbar? Good. Now, you go and try it. Please. Pretty please.

I'm not sure if the set-piece thing is down to the players or the coaching staff - players should surely be tought where to stand for a corner, who runs where, and where the delivery should go. It really isn't hard. That's why it's so frustrating to see a group of three or four players, all 6' tall, standing under the ball when it's crossed in from a set piece, watching it get cleared by a defender who's attacked it. It really is schoolboy stuff, and something which should've been addressed many, many years ago, but for some reason has been ignored.

The last sentence above, is the important one. We all know what our problems have been recently - no movement, no width, no wingers, no attacking threat from set-pieces... and if we know what the problems are, then the coaching staff do, too. They know much more than us, yet for me, they aren't doing enough to try and solve them.

So far this close-season, we've swapped our left-back for another one, brought in a reserve right back, and spent £20m on a centre-forward. We've spent the whole summer courting a central midfielder despite being blessed with a huge array of talent there, brought in a new backup keeper, and completely ignored the wings.

Did we bring in someone who will get round the outside of their full-back and put crosses in?

No.

Did we bring in anyone who can move between the lines of midfield and attack, make creative runs, and generally break other teams down?

No.

Did we address the dead-ball situation?

No.


Therefore, ladies and gentleman, we still have the same problems as the last few years - problems that buying a £20m centre forward will not fix. As depressing as it is, we're not going to win the league, and we all know why.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=227660.0
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You know what?  This is a great post and all who have praised it are spot on.  Makes you wonder, though, why we don't see more quality contributions like this on our own board?  I wonder if anyone from RAWK sneaks on here to borrow from our treasure-trove of one-liners?