Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 8:52 pm

To see where are problems lie one has only to look at how many of the team that started last night have actually scored for Liverpool this season.

Gerrard
Alonso
Torres

Over half the season gone and we played 3 players that actually knew there was a goal at either end.

by **LittleHobo** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:19 pm

embarassing stat i heard earlier

rafa has never beaten a steve bruce managed team in the league since he has been manager of liverpool

by **zarababe** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:42 pm

Have we:

Blamed rotation;
Sacked Rafa;
killed off our season;
slit our wrists?

Good - bet good ol Lando Leone and Ciggy have been defending the boss, the record, stating the facts etec etc

gawd this place is like the suicide diaries after we DRAW !

by **Reg** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:03 am

roberto green wrote:I'd still love Robbie Keane he would be perfect for us.

Whatever rings your bell matey but y'know..... :eyebrow

by **heimdall** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:35 am

roberto green wrote:I have always said Benitez has had my backing when people have slagged him off but for the first time i am starting to seriously question his judgement,he is clearly a very good manager but there is seriously something missing and i am now stating to believe he will never win the league due to his rotation.

We need a creative player so much somene special who has that touch like a Litmanen or Mcallister type player who is cool and has a brain...

I'd still love Robbie Keane he would be perfect for us.

I'm getting a bit tired of people saying that Rafa is a great manager, what are you basing this on, putting on two strikers in the 83rd minute?? Yeah that is real genius!!

by **LFC2007** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:59 am

heimdall wrote:
roberto green wrote:I have always said Benitez has had my backing when people have slagged him off but for the first time i am starting to seriously question his judgement,he is clearly a very good manager but there is seriously something missing and i am now stating to believe he will never win the league due to his rotation.

We need a creative player so much somene special who has that touch like a Litmanen or Mcallister type player who is cool and has a brain...

I'd still love Robbie Keane he would be perfect for us.

I'm getting a bit tired of people saying that Rafa is a great manager, what are you basing this on, putting on two strikers in the 83rd minute?? Yeah that is real genius!!

Had the players maintained their focus, that would have been irrelevant. Wigan scored in the 80th minute. Rafa had no option but to throw two more strikers on at that particular point in the game.

by **teamleader1** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:18 am

roberto green wrote:I have always said Benitez has had my backing when people have slagged him off but for the first time i am starting to seriously question his judgement,he is clearly a very good manager but there is seriously something missing and i am now stating to believe he will never win the league due to his rotation.

We need a creative player so much somene special who has that touch like a Litmanen or Mcallister type player who is cool and has a brain...

I'd still love Robbie Keane he would be perfect for us.

This is just about where I am, and totally agree with keane.
its not just Rafas constant obsession with players getting tired as soon as the season starts, a well balanced rotation system can work well, problem is Rafas is not well balanced rotation system, he doesnt bring in like for like to keep the shape of the team, he totally changes the system for no apparent reason ie 5 man MF against Wigan, this to me is complete folly and unprofessional,
we've lost or drawn enough games due to this type of tinkering to realistically rule ourselves out of the race in Jan, its just shooting ourselves in the foot,does Any other top manager do this?
Its hard enough to contend with injuries, suspensions, dips in form etc, so WHY even consider making a rod for your own back?
we can make all the excuses we like about how good this or that player is, fact is,our squad is far superior than most in the prem, to many of our failings have come from Rafas poor judgement not the quality of player he has at his disposal,
hes had enough time and money, so why, once again, are we looking like the poor relations?
Im sorry to say, I just dont think Rafa can cut it with the big boys of the prem, hes showing no signs of changing.
I fkn despair for my club when I look at Rafa,the new owners and that pryk Parry.

Maybe Im just depressed :down:

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:57 am

You know, you'd get the impression reading this thread that Man U, Arsenal or Chelsea had never, ever played 4-3-3/4-5-1 before. It's used plenty by the very top teams in the league, folks, and it's not a negative formation just because it only uses one striker. Hell, it wasn't negative when we stuck four past Arsenal last season, with Crouch up top by himself!

Let's break it down a little. We went to Man City on Sunday and played 4-4-2 against a team that stuck 10 and at times 11 men behind the ball. We barely got a whiff of goal all game and came away with only a point. So, fast forward to last night and Wigan comes to town under Steve Bruce--the same Steve Bruce who knows a thing or two about parking the bus at Anfield and keeping a clean sheet. Do we just approach the game the same way we did Sunday or do we shake it up?

Let's look at the personnel. Scharner and Bramble are big, strong lads who are quite good in the air, whereas their fullbacks consist of a mediocre player past his prime and a converted mediocre midfielder past his prime. Why not play two out and out wide men in support of Torres? Ideally, Kewell and Pennant would allow us to stretch the play, pull the fullbacks out to the touchlines and create space for Torres to operate in and for Gerrard to bomb into from a deeper position. Alonso sits a little deeper and is responsible for switching play and keeping the fullbacks pinned back. Mascherano mops up, whilst Aurelio and Finnan provide attacking support down the flanks on the overlap to maintain width when the wingers cut in field. Tactically, it makes a lot of sense and it wasn't working half-bad either.

It wasn't the system that let us down last night--it was poor finishing (again) and a costly defensive mistake late on.

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:31 am

Bad Bob wrote:You know, you'd get the impression reading this thread that Man U, Arsenal or Chelsea had never, ever played 4-3-3/4-5-1 before. It's used plenty by the very top teams in the league, folks, and it's not a negative formation just because it only uses one striker. Hell, it wasn't negative when we stuck four past Arsenal last season, with Crouch up top by himself!

Let's break it down a little. We went to Man City on Sunday and played 4-4-2 against a team that stuck 10 and at times 11 men behind the ball. We barely got a whiff of goal all game and came away with only a point. So, fast forward to last night and Wigan comes to town under Steve Bruce--the same Steve Bruce who knows a thing or two about parking the bus at Anfield and keeping a clean sheet. Do we just approach the game the same way we did Sunday or do we shake it up?

Let's look at the personnel. Scharner and Bramble are big, strong lads who are quite good in the air, whereas their fullbacks consist of a mediocre player past his prime and a converted mediocre midfielder past his prime. Why not play two out and out wide men in support of Torres? Ideally, Kewell and Pennant would allow us to stretch the play, pull the fullbacks out to the touchlines and create space for Torres to operate in and for Gerrard to bomb into from a deeper position. Alonso sits a little deeper and is responsible for switching play and keeping the fullbacks pinned back. Mascherano mops up, whilst Aurelio and Finnan provide attacking support down the flanks on the overlap to maintain width when the wingers cut in field. Tactically, it makes a lot of sense and it wasn't working half-bad either.

It wasn't the system that let us down last night--it was poor finishing (again) and a costly defensive mistake late on.

If you remember the Arsenal game Bob we brought Kuyt on just after half time mate.

So lets think of the other great game where we have played with one striker. CL final against Milan - Dominated play but couldnt score so we lost. Ring any bells?

Liverpool have never played well when we have played with one striker, he always becomes isolated and we struggle to score, before resorting to either the long ball (when its Crouch) or the ball over the top (fast striker). Probably Baros is our only real success in that role, he was fast mobile worked the channels well, and we never "really" expected him to score did we

Lets really look at the Wigan back line they have Titus Bramble, possibly the biggest liability in football and we allowed him to have an easy game because he didn't have to mark anyone. As against City they could use two players to mark Torres because Gerrard just couldn't get close enough to give him any support. (Kuyt played so deep against City he was virtually a midfielder for half the game)

Pennant throws the ball into the box at the earliest opportunity whether anyone is there or not. Torres challenges for the header when on the odd occasion the ball is not overhit or 3 yards behind him, gets the flick on but no-one is there, because Gerrard is still trying to make up ground.

It was a bad formation that could be excused away from home at a top club where a 0-0 draw or 1-0 hard fought win would be acceptable. At home against a bottom club it was totally wrong, with no balance, no creativity, and even the wrong players selected for that formation.

If you are going to play with a lone striker and two attacking wingers, the wingers have to vary their play. Sometimes coming inside and playing it short or threatning to shoot , sometimes going past the fullback, drawing the CB out of position and crossing. Pennant did neither, with Kewell not much better.

Our midfield was an absolute shambles Gerrard and Alonso were in each others way most of the game, with Mascherano running about like a bluear$ed fly tackling anything that moved and a few things that didn't (he tackled Kewell once)

Yes poor finishing cost us but how many times are we going to hear that excuse this season. Maybe if we had played a system that suits the way WE PLAY rather than the opposition we might get a few more chances and actually stick 3 or 4 of them away.

Tactically it was p!sspoor and made no sense Bob. We were playing Wigan not Inter Milan!

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:48 am

s@int wrote:If you remember the Arsenal game Bob we brought Kuyt on just after half time mate.

So lets think of the other great game where we have played with one striker. CL final against Milan - Dominated play but couldnt score so we lost. Ring any bells?

Liverpool have never played well when we have played with one striker, he always becomes isolated and we struggle to score, before resorting to either the long ball (when its Crouch) or the ball over the top (fast striker). Probably Baros is our only real success in that role, he was fast mobile worked the channels well, and we never "really" expected him to score did we

Lets really look at the Wigan back line they have Titus Bramble, possibly the biggest liability in football and we allowed him to have an easy game because he didn't have to mark anyone. As against City they could use two players to mark Torres because Gerrard just couldn't get close enough to give him any support. (Kuyt played so deep against City he was virtually a midfielder for half the game)

Pennant throws the ball into the box at the earliest opportunity whether anyone is there or not. Torres challenges for the header when on the odd occasion the ball is not overhit or 3 yards behind him, gets the flick on but no-one is there, because Gerrard is still trying to make up ground.

It was a bad formation that could be excused away from home at a top club where a 0-0 draw or 1-0 hard fought win would be acceptable. At home against a bottom club it was totally wrong, with no balance, no creativity, and even the wrong players selected for that formation.

If you are going to play with a lone striker and two attacking wingers, the wingers have to vary their play. Sometimes coming inside and playing it short or threatning to shoot , sometimes going past the fullback, drawing the CB out of position and crossing. Pennant did neither, with Kewell not much better.

Our midfield was an absolute shambles Gerrard and Alonso were in each others way most of the game, with Mascherano running about like a bluear$ed fly tackling anything that moved and a few things that didn't (he tackled Kewell once)

Yes poor finishing cost us but how many times are we going to hear that excuse this season. Maybe if we had played a system that suits the way WE PLAY rather than the opposition we might get a few more chances and actually stick 3 or 4 of them away.

Tactically it was p!sspoor and made no sense Bob. We were playing Wigan not Inter Milan!

Hi Saint!

Perhaps I watched a completely different game from most because from where I was sat, we had them pinned deep in their own half all game with plenty of red shirts swarming around. Torres had much more freedom to operate than he ever did at City when he had another striker "in support" and Gerrard was in the box enough to spurn at least 3 good scoring chances that he might ordinarily be expected to bury. FFS, Mascherano was unmarked in the box after a good move and our fullback set up a sidefoot tap-in after a surging run deep into their area. I'd hardly say we were static, uncreative and lacked bodies in support of Torres!

Would we have created more chances with Crouch on the pitch? Possibly but I somehow doubt it. I am convinced we wouldn't have with Kuyt or Voronin on the pitch. Bottom line, we did create more than enough chances to win playing that formation and we simply didn't take them. I can't help it if that criticism stays relevant match to match, can I?

And, for the record, we were 2-0 up to Arsenal before Kuyt came on. Besides, you've said it yourself dozens of times, we are basically playing with a single striker anytime he's on the pitch anyway!

by **holylamb2006** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:11 am

I think we should forget this game and get behind our manager and team :buttrock

by **Santa** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:32 am

Can someone please answer me this question...FFS why do we need to change our formation so as to "match" a fecked-up bottom 3 team such as Wigan at home at Anfield? If we're confident about our own players ability, our superiority and our team's strength, and if we were to have any ambition to win the league title, shouldn't we slice them up from the get go, end the game before half-time then rest the key players (like what an Arsenal or ManU will do) and let the little teams to worry about us and park their bus in front of their goal? What are we coming to now when we have to chop and change our formation to suit our opponents especially when we play at home against smaller teams and what's on earth is happening when our manager is being out-thought by a 3rd rated Premiership manager? Make no mistake, we definately have more serious quality than we did in recent years but something is not right and I am sick and tired of seeing this kind of fuck-up happened every season and then some smart-ass will say we have to win our remaining games etc etc. How the fuck could that happen when we can't get past the likes of Birmingham, Reading or a Wigan of this world?

The fact that we let the donkey scored against us really rubs salt into my wound..speechless!!!

by **Santa** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:40 am

holylamb2006 wrote:I think we should forget this game and get behind our manager and team

yeah I'll get behind them and kick their ass since they do deserve it from time to time :veryangry

by **JoeTerp** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:08 am

Bob, the North American feed must have been different because I saw Kewell with some nifty passing and moving inside the box (still having trouble beating ppl though), Pennant did have some nice crosses or short passes back to Gerrard after the fullback committed to him and the CB were worried about Torres. Kewell did come in to have a pop that went just high. I WAS SHOCKED that they scored, and very frustrated that we did not get the 2nd goal. I think we deserved to win 2-0, considering our chances. Certianly we could have played better, and it wasn't like we deserved a 4-0, but other than the goal we created enough quality chances to have deserved a 2nd which would have been game over and they wouldn't have gotten one in the first place.

S@int might have a point with the lack of number of goal scorers we have in the team, becuase I never expected mascherano to convert that tap in when most midfielders should, but he just offers soo much to the team in other areas its difficult for me to fault him too much.

If other teams are going to play us at Anfield with different "park the bus" tactics, I don't see why we shouldn't adjust and play tow truck tactics that open up the spaces. I think Rafa is pretty clear with his aim for games like these, get an early goal to relieve the pressure, find a second goal, kill the game get a third late when they get desperate

by **bigmick** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:09 am

Well I would have liked to have seen us play with a 4-4-2, I think it suits us better but I'm not entirely convinced that the formation was necessarily our downfall. Neither do I buy the theory that Bruce "outwitted' Rafa, Liverpool really ought to have won the game and would have but for a freaky goal and some missed chances. I also think the presumption that Rafa can't motivate the players is almost certainly wide of the mark as well.

All that said, I don't think we played particularly well and once more it appears that it is taking us an inordinately long time to get over a dodgy little spell. Some will say that eight points over Christmas isn't too bad, (and it isn't in truth) but it ought to be remembered that only a huge slice of luck got us home against Derby and only in the Pompey game were we really convincing in any way.

Why that is could be any one of a number of reasons and probably is a combination of many, but my feeling is that two reasons will be above any others in terms of importance. Firstly I think it's quite simply down to pressure. Poor results (for whatever reason) earlier in the season have really put us under the gun in this patch. We very likely needed to win all four matches over the festive period to have any chance whatsoever, and the players played like they were fully aware of the fact. Once our rivals had all won the day before we played Birmingham, that pressure was cranked up a couple of notches and the truth is we cracked a bit. One up was good but then we got caught out trying to hang on, too many cooks in our own box spoilt the broth for their goal, and then anxiety prevented us from getting up a head of steam in the last ten minutes. Rafa in truth probably didn't help with his formational switch and bizarre substitutions (it's never a good sight to see your players falling over each other and tackling their teammates) but in this game at least, we were probably victims of circumstance. It's also a bit of a giveaway that despite the much debated rotation, our players have a very tired look about them and this is almost certainly due to the pressure of absolutely having to grind out a result every week or face being out of it.

The other main reason IMHO is that most weeks we are effectively playing with ten men, in that our second striker is totally inneffective. This is true to such an extent that we didn't even bother playing one this time, and Gerrard might be many things but he certainly ain't no second striker. In years to come I can't help thinking that Rafa's absolute refusal to give the Crouch/Torres partnership any chance whatsoever of being successful will be the one aspect of this season which baffles most fans. I have no doubts that Torres will continue to score many goals for Liverpool, nor do I doubt that Crouch will figure regularly on the scoresheet wherever he gets sold off to so quite why it just doesn't seem worth giving them a run of four or five games together to see if it might work is and will remain a mystery to me. You can hardly argue they are similar in the way they play after all.

Still what will be will be and the fact (or at least i think it's a fact anyway) that we have preferred to play a bloke who offers no discernable goal threat either in terms of scoring a goal himself or creating one for somebody else has greatly hindered us as an attacking force. It's worth remembering that Torres's excellent record has been achieved despite the factt hat he has played with a succession of no-mark partners, and definately not because of it. On the question of the pressure issue, now we are out of it and not under any real pressure it wouldn't be the biggest surprise in the World if we started playing well again fairly soon.

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