Liverpool FC Forum

by **Thingy** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:58 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Kuyt as far as I'm concerned is a waste of space, the fella runs round like a headless chicken but that's all, if we want that we could of kept Bellamy or even put Momo up front and we'd have the same goalscoring problems as we do now. Kuyt just doesn't impress me at all.

Dont agree with a word of that mate. His work rate is top draw, he scored 14 goals in his first season, which okay maybe isnt as much as people would of liked but it aint bad for his first season. Hes a fantastic player.

by **Scottbot** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:04 am

stmichael wrote:In my opinion, Kuyt will be our top scorer this season.

He spent the majority of last season out of position playing more an AM/SS role than main striker. 16 times last season Kuyt played as main striker and he scored 12 goals in those games.

Kuyt seems to be the player who divides opinion the most amongst Reds going into this season. Some think he's a waste of space who doesn't carry a goal threat and many believe this will be a big year for him and that he will be playing as a proper striker this year rather than following orders.

From what i have seen of the pre-season fixtures so far he is still playing in a very deep role, dropping off, offering feet and linking play and not getting into the box all that often. As i said earlier in this thread, i don't think Kuyt was playing under orders last season, that was him playing his natural game for the most part. I expect him to get us 15 goals this coming season but have a feeling the 1st choice pairing will be Crouch and Torres by mid-season.

I'd be interested to hear what role everyone expects Kuyt to play next season (particularly Big Mick and St.Mick who think this will be his year)

- Was Kuyt playing under orders last season? Playing deep coz the manager told him to? If so, what makes you think that as can't really it myself?

- What sort of role/position do you expect Kuyt to take up this year and how many goals do you fancy him to score?

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:22 pm

I expect similar to last season from Kuyt unfortunately, perhaps a few more goals in the cups as hopefully we will make a strong challenge in all competitions. I hoped he would play further forward this season, but the signs are that he will still retreat into midfield too much.

Voronin and Torres have seemed much more alert than Kuyt up to now in pre-season and much more of a goal threat, even if Torres has yet to open his account. Hopefully Kuyt will prove me wrong but I can see him being 4th choice striker if he doesnt improve on his performances last season.

A tremendously hard working player, with a great charactor and attitude, but we need more of a goal threat than he is providing.

by **RedBlood** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:39 pm

i fancy all our strikers to hit between 15 and 20 goals this season in all competitions, whitch for me is a success

cant expect a striker to score 25/30 goals the way rafa rotates them (this is not a criticism of rafa )

by **aCe'** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:56 pm

many many forwards who are better than kuyt out there... above average finishing and excellent work rate and everything else is just ordinary.
personally.. id rather see someone better playing alongside torres... id probably go as far as sayin id rather have crouch out there before kuyt but dont get me wrong... kuyt is not a waste of space... hes a good plyer but i think we can and should do better...
he'll probably have more of an impact next season...im not talking about goals because if it was only about the scoring record cisse would still be a liverpool player... hope he links up well with torres if rafa goes for the partnership... personally fancy torres to score way more than kuyt will next season...

by **Penguins** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:09 pm

I agree with Ace.

I rank Torres, Crouch ahead of Kuyt and by the looks of it Voronin maybe as well.

Kuyt has excellent work rate but you need ability as well.
He has a decent shot and decent intelligence.

But he is very slow, has a poor 1st touch, average technique and is a average header of the ball.
Don't get me wrong, Kuyt would get a fair amount of goals if he just stayed in the box but I feel he is lacking in many areas. Only reason Kuyt might be top scorer next season is cause he seems to be one of Rafa's favourites, unlike Crouch.
More than 15 goals in the PL and I'd be surprised.

by **66-1112520797** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:41 pm

Scottbot wrote:
stmichael wrote:In my opinion, Kuyt will be our top scorer this season.

He spent the majority of last season out of position playing more an AM/SS role than main striker. 16 times last season Kuyt played as main striker and he scored 12 goals in those games.

Kuyt seems to be the player who divides opinion the most amongst Reds going into this season. Some think he's a waste of space who doesn't carry a goal threat and many believe this will be a big year for him and that he will be playing as a proper striker this year rather than following orders.

From what i have seen of the pre-season fixtures so far he is still playing in a very deep role, dropping off, offering feet and linking play and not getting into the box all that often. As i said earlier in this thread, i don't think Kuyt was playing under orders last season, that was him playing his natural game for the most part. I expect him to get us 15 goals this coming season but have a feeling the 1st choice pairing will be Crouch and Torres by mid-season.

I'd be interested to hear what role everyone expects Kuyt to play next season (particularly Big Mick and St.Mick who think this will be his year)

- Was Kuyt playing under orders last season? Playing deep coz the manager told him to? If so, what makes you think that as can't really it myself?

- What sort of role/position do you expect Kuyt to take up this year and how many goals do you fancy him to score?

For me if Kuyt plays in the similar type of role as he did last season he may aswell not be on the pitch. Harsh ... yes but true IMO too, the role he played last season was very ineffective.

As Stu said if you need to defend a one goal lead, Kuyt would be the perfect striker to defend from the front. He was one of the main ingredients IMHO for a very bland Liverpool side last year.

In critisising him though I do remember it was his first season with us, and he showed good character. Through work rate alone he deserves the chance to prove he can be more effective as a striker in the Prem next year. Hopefully he can score more goals and set the Prem alight this season coming, if not I'd be looking to get rid of him the season after.

Just quickly while I'm on the subject of Kuyt, its typical of Rafa to sign a player like this. Rafa likes hard working players and versatility in them, i.e playing on either wing or being asked to do a different job now and again, and I for one am not keen on this approach he uses. Rafa never really picks a specialist, maybe he did with Garcia. But as far as forwards go Voronin seems versitile and can play in numerous positions, same with Babel for whom of which a lot of money was paid. When players like Queresama and Mancini were a bit more in price but seemingly more skillful in style and specialised in one role, Rafa again opted for versatility in Babel who can play in these various positions I believe.
I'm not saying the signing of the Dutchman is bad, as I havent even seen him play. But it certainly is obvious Rafa likes versitility and work rate in his players which when you have a team full of them or more or less can become quite boring as a whole, it just doesnt seem as there isnt any room in Rafa's teams for individualality.

by **redsince2001** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:44 pm

will bang in 20goals in the league this season !!
:buttrock

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:51 am

I'm not a huge fan of Kuyt, for me he gives the ball away far too often. But this year I think will give me a clearer idea of Dirk Kuyt. If he's the same as last year, I'd be happy to see him sold personally, on the other hand if he controls a ball and his passing to fellow Liverpool team-mates is up to scratch, I think we could have a decent player on our hands. His goals for me last year wasn't the main problem, 12 in the league was the best from any of our players so like I said, goals wasn't my criticism of him last year. It was simpelly basic skills i.e. controlling a football, he just couldn't do it. Has to improve his basic skills dramatically for me.

by **lio** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:06 am

My expectation will be Kuyt’s to get abundance of supply to finish it all if he’s given the task to hang around the 6yd box this coming season and not falling deep to waste precious energy we seen in the last.

With the likes of Torres, Babel, Yossi, Voronin, Lucas or Gerard/Alonso being all capable providers, the prospect of Kuyt being top scorer is just coming.

:buttrock

by **SoppMeister** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:18 am

Am I in a minority here in saying that I don't take anything from the form shown in pre-season matches?

Everyone's opinions on Kuyt seem to have got worse from the end of last season and the only matches we've played since then are these half hearted friendlys.

I'm not holding out for anything special from Kuyt myself, I think he'll do better than last year and I think he'll be our top scorer but as a few have said he lacks some of the basic skills and often looks a bit heavy on his feet.

However, the amount of criticism he's got has risen a noticeable amount lately and I think anything taken from the past few games will become totally void come the first game of the season.

by **bigmick** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 4:03 am

Well we'll soon know with Kuyt that's for sure. For my part, I think he's a good player who was played out of position last season, not a workhorse who chose to drop deep but we'll see.

First thing to be said and understood when looking at his performances is to qualify exactly what we are looking for. I don't buy all this nonsense about strikers working for the team, a players player and all that old tripe. They used to say that (probably still do) about Emile Heskey and he was and is, garbage. Strikers must either score or make goals. That's what they're there for, and all the other stuff is nice but it doesn't make a striker. We don't say "ah but he's good at commanding his area", or "he's got a great throw though" about goalkeepers who are rubbish, who get beat at the near post etc. Just like a goalies job is to save it, be it with his hands, his head, his erse or whatever, strikers must score and make goals. At worst, they must look like they maybe will score and make goals at some point during the game, they must posess what we commonly call "a goal threat".

So those are the parameters for me. Clearly last season, Kuyt didn't do enough. My feeling is though that he has it in him, given firstly the freedom to get into the box and get himself open regularly, and secondly if he plays in a team which doesn't have two central midfielders who rarely get near the oppositions box and insist on standing within five yards of each other. Now given the signings Rafa has made, I assume he is going to address the second problem by moving Gerrard inside. Even allowing for the inevitable baffling selections the squad and fans will have to deal with on a game by game basis, I still expect we won't see such negative set-ups as alst season and therefore I expect Kuyt will have the opportunity to prosper.

As for the first problem, whether or not he chose to drop deep last season or whether it was under orders, he will probably have to play higher up next term to allow Torres space to play. Given this set of circumstances, the Dutchman can little excuse. I think he'll do very well, but if he doesn't after four or five games, I'd bring Crouch in and be very confident that he will score regularly. I suppose then we could wait until Crouch is really banging them in again and then drop him to the bench like we did last season.

by **112-1077774096** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 4:03 am

kuyt is frustrating as we need a player who can score 20 every season in the league, he didnt do that last year so we look at him as failing, but then none of our forwards scored 20 in the league so why do we get at kuyt?

its simple really, he isnt a threat to the goal as he is invariably nowehere near the goal, its a crime that he got more chances last season than crouch and bellamy, and even fowler.

its all very well for a player to work hard, but added to the hard work they need to have something else and as far as i can see kuyt just doesnt offer anything else, no pace, no skill, no threat.

like i said after athens the aging milan defenders must have been very happy when they saw kuyt on the pitch rather than crouch and bellamy, the one player they could control easily.

if he doesnt do it this season then get rid, it wont be any loss

by **bigmick** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 4:17 am

Yes it seems that there is just about agreement on what Kuyt achieved last season, it's what he could do which provides the talking point. If what we saw last season is the pinnacle of his capabilities, I wouldn't wait I'd be getting shut about now to be honest.

I don't think that's all there is to him though to be honest. He showed in cameo's some real quality, particularly when he first arrived and I for one am prepared to wait for the footballer to come out. We aren't talking about a Mark Gonzales or a Morientes here, we did see a fair bit from Kuyt last season and hopefully it was the classic settling in period. Truth is though if we are going to play 4-4-2 (which we are) and have pretensions about launching some sort of title challenge (by that I mean we are in some sort of contention by Christmas which surely we do) then we are going to need our two front players to provide a goal threat, get in the box, challenge for headers, God forbid have a shot now and then.

My kind of rotation woould be I'd sit the four strikers down and tell Kuyt and Torres that they are in posession, the number one pairing. I'd tell Crouch and Voronin that they'd better work their erses off to get into the team. I'd use them as subs and as soon as I suspected that the two in posession weren't doing it, one or both would be swapping places. Score regularly and heavily, or provide regualr assists and you stay in, don't and you don't its as simple as that. Run around, close down, make yourself busy by all means but don't do it at the expence of what you get paid for.

You know we used to have another striker who closed down all the time, defended from the front, ran his b0ll0cks off every game. "A players player" and all that. He was very similar to Morientes and Kuyt in that respect. The difference was though he scored regualrly, heavily and ALWAYS provided a goal threat. Ian Rush was his name. You never know, if they fish around on the old E-bay one of the current lads might be able to find a video of him and give it a watch.

by **112-1077774096** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 4:24 am

just a side issue, i read yesterday that john wark scored 42 goals for us in 108 games, thats for a midfielder, thats some scoring rate,

in 85-86 season he scored 27 goals

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