Liverpool FC Forum

by **Leonmc0708** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:13 am

bigmick wrote:
AB's Red Army wrote:
It's time for some rotation

How refreshing it is to see that the stories of people who live in America not understanding irony is actually not the case. Fair play to you AB for picking up on that one.

I did notice that later on in the thread you made the point about Kuyt's achievements in Holland being pretty much irrelevent when considering whether or not he has been or will be a success over here. I couldn't agree more to be perfectly honest. He would be by no means the first player to be very successful overseas but to not quite manage to transfer his form to the English Premier League. We all remember Morientes of course, but I hope and believe that Kuyt is not that bad and with a bit of refocus, could still make the grade at the club.

On the question of achievements/successes in overseas leagues being relevent or not to what goes on over here, I can't help but notice that you make something of an exception in the case of Rafa. Funny that.

Add to that picture Kezman, who was the same as Kuyt and Van NostrilHair in Holland and did the EXACT opposite of what old long face did.

However I am not sure Mick I buy the line about translating a maangers form in other leagues.

A managers role (back to early training for me) is to influence the performance of his team. Nothing more nothing less. How he does this, the methids he promotes and the hiring and firing are secondary to this.

Therefore success should be transfareable as any good manager should be able to manage a team of people once they grasp the concept of the sale.

by **bigmick** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:32 am

Leonmc0708 wrote:However I am not sure Mick I buy the line about translating a maangers form in other leagues.

A managers role (back to early training for me) is to influence the performance of his team. Nothing more nothing less. How he does this, the methids he promotes and the hiring and firing are secondary to this.

Therefore success should be transfareable as any good manager should be able to manage a team of people once they grasp the concept of the sale.

The line about transfering achievements from other leagues is really just a playful aside for those (of which you are probably one yourself Leon) who believe that as Rafa is far better qualified than any of us lot (no debate there obviously) it is disrespectful, fickle and frankly just plain daft to criticise him. Given the fact that he won the title twice with valencia (an unbelieveable achievement by all acounts) we shouldn't doubt that he has the knowledge to do the same here goes the jist of the argument.

Funnily enough I don't doubt that he has the pedigree, knowledge and talent to bring the title back to anfield. Where I differ from some though is that I believe that in order to achieve his and ultimately our goals, he is going to have to further modify his philosphy which he developed in Spain. He has undoubtedly made adjustments in playing style since he first came which he ought to be applauded for. Ultimately though, it's not by any means just a couple of boring old farts on here who think he may be wrong visa vis rotation, much of the football world outside of Anfield think that he overdoes it as well. Now blokes such as Alan Hansen maybe dinosaurs, so might Ferguson and Wenger, but they do it and call it differently to our manager.

My point in a nutshell is that just because Rafa was extremely successful in his Home league employing a particular method, like Kuyt, Cisse, Morientes and many before them, it doesn't necessarily mean those same methods will work over here.

You said yourself in an earlier post that Rafa is an innovator and undoubtedly he is. I'll start believing in this innovatio though when we do as well in the league as the quality of the team (which Rafa has assembled brilliantly) suggests we should.

by **AB's Red Army** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:35 pm

bigmick wrote:
AB's Red Army wrote:
It's time for some rotation

How refreshing it is to see that the stories of people who live in America not understanding irony is actually not the case. Fair play to you AB for picking up on that one.

I did notice that later on in the thread you made the point about Kuyt's achievements in Holland being pretty much irrelevent when considering whether or not he has been or will be a success over here. I couldn't agree more to be perfectly honest. He would be by no means the first player to be very successful overseas but to not quite manage to transfer his form to the English Premier League. We all remember Morientes of course, but I hope and believe that Kuyt is not that bad and with a bit of refocus, could still make the grade at the club.

On the question of achievements/successes in overseas leagues being relevent or not to what goes on over here, I can't help but notice that you make something of an exception in the case of Rafa. Funny that.

How have I made an exception for Benitez? I've yet to make a statement of ''He did it in Spain, he will do it here'' in any of these threads.

I will say that, there are not many better managers than Benitez that could come in for him [if he were to be sacked] and win the title straight away.

by **Graeme Noble** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:29 pm

Dirk is a good player and he scored countless amounts of goals in Holland when he played as an ouot-and-out striker. Why does Rafa not play him in that role for us? He's great in the air, clinical finisher and he works hard. The problem is, he seems to play in midfield more than up front. I do agree that the Kuyt/Vorinin partnership is a complete waste of time. We need Torres in there!!!

by **AB's Red Army** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:32 pm

Graeme Noble wrote:Dirk is a good player and he scored countless amounts of goals in Holland when he played as an ouot-and-out striker. Why does Rafa not play him in that role for us? He's great in the air, clinical finisher and he works hard. The problem is, he seems to play in midfield more than up front. I do agree that the Kuyt/Vorinin partnership is a complete waste of time. We need Torres in there!!!

Great in the air? Clinical finisher?

He's not either of those things, especially the latter.

by **Graeme Noble** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:35 pm

I think he is definitely great in the air. Remember his goals against Arsenal in FA Cup, AC Milan in Champions League final and then against Porto last week.

But maybe I did take it one step too far with the clinical finisher, but if he got into the box more then I think he would win more people round.

by **LittleHobo** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:47 pm

wouldnt call him a clinical finisher either

hes a blaster (watch his goal collections on you tube in holland, all his goals are whacked)

just hits it as hard as he can, like cisse

by **OneHotRed** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:55 pm

AB's Red Army wrote:
OneHotRed wrote:
AB's Red Army wrote:
OneHotRed wrote:All boils down to rotation and bad tactics again this surely?

Play Kuyt everygame, in his strongest position and he will be better, thats a fact

Does it feck.

This is getting tiresome.

YEP YOUR RIGHT!!!! YOU MUST BE!!!

Although it was an inferior league, Kuyt is more or less shocking since he came to LFC, dont get me wrong he runs round like mad, works harder than all / most of out players, at feyenord he didnt do this HALF as much, he was there to score goals, and he did, LOTS OF GOALS, so, there is my reasoning, played as a striker, where he likes it, he scored goals.

Played as a midfield headless chicken hes shocking.

And how about you stop "Landoing" (no offence Lando but its what your known for on here) and post something for discussion instead of a couple of one liners which argues your point very well.

We're playing our club football in England, not in Holland. What he's achieved in Holland [at Feyenoord] is much irrelevant when it comes to playing for this club. At Feyenoord he was the captain. The team was built to his strengths in particular, and part of his success there was down to Salomon Kolou believe it or not.

I've seen him play for Holland as well, he looked average there as well. In terms of goal-scoring ability, he's not a threat. He can be easily shut down. He's not a poacher in this league period.

His first touch is often heavy and takes him away from the ball completely, and at times slows down our build up.

I love his character off and on the pitch, but he's not a match winner ala Robbie Fowler.

But no doubt that you're in a better position the players strengths and weaknesses than that of a manager with pedigree.

There's your argument.

I do agree with some of the things you put there matey!

However i dont think i know better than the manager, but....play a player out of his position and dont get the full player, simple as that really, never said he was a fowler etc, would just be nice to see the team slightly more geared around a 20 goal per season striker, doesnt matter what anyone says, you dont get that tally by luck.

by **AB's Red Army** » Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:28 am

A team slightly geared around 20 goal per season striker makes the team dependent on that one player alone. Which is why Benitez has over the year consistently said that he would prefer four of his strikers getting 15 goals each than one striker getting 20 or 30.

Igor Biscan was played out of position, Dirk Kuyt isn't. He's playing as a centerforward, and he has to come deep to receive the ball [Just like Torres has in all the games he's gotten]. But Torres still makes runs into the box and dangerous ones at that where as Kuyt doesn't.

by **OneHotRed** » Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:41 pm

To be fair though they are two completely different style of player and I think with a decent amount of time would complement each other nicely, I can see Torres being a great supplier aswell as finisher.

Another probelm is that his four strikers arent going to get 15 goals each, in fact i'd be suprised if they got 20 goals (excluding torres) between them therefore fuelling the argument of a regular partnership up front, which should be Kuyt and Torres IMO. I must admit, it is infuriating watching Kuyt sometimes, but I think given the right opportunities he will be a fine partner for Torres

by **Mystery Man** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:38 am

Peter C and Torres for the partnership - for me anyway!

by **AB's Red Army** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:59 am

Peter C has been quite :censored:

. Dirk Kuyt or Voronin ahead of him at the moment.

by **maguskwt** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:25 am

bigmick wrote:I did notice that later on in the thread you made the point about Kuyt's achievements in Holland being pretty much irrelevent when considering whether or not he has been or will be a success over here. I couldn't agree more to be perfectly honest. He would be by no means the first player to be very successful overseas but to not quite manage to transfer his form to the English Premier League. We all remember Morientes of course, but I hope and believe that Kuyt is not that bad and with a bit of refocus, could still make the grade at the club.

i think that the reason kuyt is not reproducing his goalscoring feat from holland is because he's doing too many things on the field right now. if he's focuses on just linking up with torres then maybe he'll score more goals... but that doesn't mean that it's only him that needs to be changed... basically our whole midfield needs to change the way they play and give more support for the 2 strikers up front so that kuyt won't have to do the midfield work... this means gerrard in an even more advanced position and masherano/alonso playing higher up... you can remember that's how man u used to play... scholes played even more higher up than gerrard is doing now and keane also pressed... basically their whole midfield line is in the opponent's half and that's how their so so strikers yorke and cole scored alot of goals...

but is that how rafa wants to play? I don't know...

by **bigmick** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:10 am

maguskwt wrote:... basically our whole midfield needs to change the way they play and give more support for the 2 strikers up front so that kuyt won't have to do the midfield work... this means gerrard in an even more advanced position and masherano/alonso playing higher up... you can remember that's how man u used to play... scholes played even more higher up than gerrard is doing now and keane also pressed... basically their whole midfield line is in the opponent's half and that's how their so so strikers yorke and cole scored alot of goals...

but is that how rafa wants to play? I don't know...

Well I'd be extremely surprised if that was how Rafa would want to play and I wouldn't blame him, I wouldn't play that way with our team either. In a nutshell the reasons why we couldn't play that way would be mstly because of a lack of similar qulaity and running power from the wide midfiled slots (if you remember they had Giggs and Beckham, who were both not only quality but covered miles of ground tracking back as well). They also as you say had Dwight Yorke dropping ino the hole, Sheringham when Yorke didn't play and I would venture both are better than Dirk based on what we have seen so far.

No, look we don't need to change the whole way we play in my opinion. Three weeks ago we were being talked about as being the best team in the division (totally justifiably in my view) so we don't need to become all expansive just because we've had a dodgy week. We need to get back to what we were doing when people were saying those nice things. We were confident and playing with our best players usually out on the park. We began the stabalisation process against Reading in the Carling Cup and we will continue it against Wigan I'm sure.

by **maguskwt** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:25 pm

bigmick wrote:
maguskwt wrote:... basically our whole midfield needs to change the way they play and give more support for the 2 strikers up front so that kuyt won't have to do the midfield work... this means gerrard in an even more advanced position and masherano/alonso playing higher up... you can remember that's how man u used to play... scholes played even more higher up than gerrard is doing now and keane also pressed... basically their whole midfield line is in the opponent's half and that's how their so so strikers yorke and cole scored alot of goals...

but is that how rafa wants to play? I don't know...

Well I'd be extremely surprised if that was how Rafa would want to play and I wouldn't blame him, I wouldn't play that way with our team either. In a nutshell the reasons why we couldn't play that way would be mstly because of a lack of similar qulaity and running power from the wide midfiled slots (if you remember they had Giggs and Beckham, who were both not only quality but covered miles of ground tracking back as well). They also as you say had Dwight Yorke dropping ino the hole, Sheringham when Yorke didn't play and I would venture both are better than Dirk based on what we have seen so far.

No, look we don't need to change the whole way we play in my opinion. Three weeks ago we were being talked about as being the best team in the division (totally justifiably in my view) so we don't need to become all expansive just because we've had a dodgy week. We need to get back to what we were doing when people were saying those nice things. We were confident and playing with our best players usually out on the park. We began the stabalisation process against Reading in the Carling Cup and we will continue it against Wigan I'm sure.

don't get me wrong bigmick, I'm not suggesting we play that way... it was just an observation regarding how dirk kuyt is playing right now born out of some people's complaints that he's not scoring as much as he was playing in holland...

I don't mind the way we play in our first few games... even though kuyt didn't score he linked up well with torres... and did alot of work to link up with the midfield as well... the reality is no one can basically do this and still score dozens of goals... it was just a hypothetical scenario that if we want both our strikers to score alot of goals our midfield needs to press more...

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