Liverpool FC Forum

by **Ben Patrick** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:03 am

nail on the head for me from Saint there.

Thats my main gripe with most fans that are still behind Rafa.
It appears to me that they think we are doing all we can and that whoever was manager this season would have been the same.
To me thats ludicrous, someone else could come in and get more from these players.
Christ sake Rafa won the champions league with houlliers failing team.
Sometimes a change is needed.

by **Benny The Noon** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:06 am

s@int wrote:
Benny The Noon wrote:yet in fagans first year we won the league and euro cup saint plus league cup and the year before kenny took over we were second in league and runners up in euro cup- the team wasnt much different that next season , they just had a poor season .so kenny took over a very successful team

No mate they just lost Souness! Thats why they won nothing.

Dalglish took over a side that finished 13 points behind Everton and won the league and cup with it.

it has no bearing to what is happening now saint - we were established back then with an outstanding squad and that season the players just didnt play well and Fagan never wanted to be manager in the first place and only wanted to do it until they found someone more sutible - he just followed Bobs methods .

You cant keep comparing what happened in the 80s to what is happening now

by **Scottbot** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:06 am

Benny The Noon wrote:and in your situation you say every time the team has a poor season we must change the manager and not give him time to tun it around

And on the face of it that would seem a bit unfair and I would agree entirely IF the previous 4 seasons had been barnstorming successes but let's be honest here....they weren't.

by **Igor Zidane** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:07 am

s@int wrote:
Igor Zidane wrote:
s@int wrote:Not all mate , he has bought a fair bit of cr@p, but I am pretty sure with the right manager they will be performing above and beyond the call of duty and the cups will come rolling in.

Ok i'll play along saint . Say rafa gets sacked or resigns and we get whichever manager you want . Do you think with the financial restraints the new manager will still have , and the squad he will still have playing probably in the uefa cup . That said manager (whomever he is ) will have the cups coming rolling in? I'm not talking about Rafa here or his good and bad points . I'm talking about the new man in charge . How is he going to rebuild a squad to challenge for the league , a squad which is obviously not good enough at the minute (rafa's fault or not ) . He will not be able to go and get villa unless he sells torres or messi unless he sells torres and gerrard . Any manager coming in is on a loser from the off if the fans expect him to compete in all comps like we have been before this season .

This is were I disagree with the Rafa supporters Igor. I think we have a good team that is not performing anywhere near to its potential. We have 5 world class players, Englands best right back, a couple of excellent cb's a £20million pound midfield player, and a few decent squad players. A pretty good basis for ANY manager.

The problem we have is we are not getting anything like the best out of these players, and I believe that we need them all to be playing to their potential if we are going to see the cups rolling in. (Either that or a couple of £100million)

We won NOTHING the year before Dalglish took over, we won the league and cup double in his first season. He bought only one player yet still managed to turn things around.

If we had the money , maybe we could afford to wait and see if Rafa could turn things around( however unlikely), we don't have the money so we can't wait and do nothing, we need to bring in a manager that can inspire the players and get more out of them.

Its either that or just accepting that we can't compete and the inevitable slide to midtable obscurity.

I believe that when Rafa came he inspired a lot of underperforming players who no longer believed in the manager, I think we need a new manager capable of doing the very same thing now.

Your argument is like saying Crouch only scored 14 goals from the chances we created...... why should Torres score any more than that?

That wasn't a pro rafa post mate . What i'm trying to get at ( i've already come to terms that rafa's going ) is who ever we get as rafa's replacement be it mourinho , hiddink whoever .Will have to work with what he has got and to buy better players than he's got i.e kuyt lucas and insua he's going to have to get the money from somewhere . He will have to sell to buy , or use the players he's got now . Not forgetting that certain star players have already intimated that they will be off if there is no investment . IMO we will never be challenging again whilst we have the owners we have whoever the manager is . People had better get used to it if there not willing to help get rid of the owners and roll over and let G+H sh!t all over them (not you like lash ) . There are squad players that need replacing and i don't know where the dosh is coming from . I think our strongest 11 can compete , but will they still be here and if they are who can we afford that's better than what we've got as back up . That's the reality we and the new manager is looking at i'm afraid .

by **Benny The Noon** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:10 am

Ben Patrick wrote:nail on the head for me from Saint there.

Thats my main gripe with most fans that are still behind Rafa.
It appears to me that they think we are doing all we can and that whoever was manager this season would have been the same.
To me thats ludicrous, someone else could come in and get more from these players.
Christ sake Rafa won the champions league with houlliers failing team.
Sometimes a change is needed.

Maybe the players have just lost motivation with the way the season has gone as opposed to the man in charge - if they cant give 100% for the club because of the guy in charge then they need to take a big hard look at themsleves and ask if they deserve they massive amount of money given to them

People think bringing someone new in would all of a sudden turn things around and watch us win the league etc ?

What happens when it doesnt next season with a new manager ?

Demand another new one ? then the same with the next season

by **Scottbot** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:12 am

Anyways, was good to spend a bit of time in a quality thread without the debate getting into abuse. The best hour stint i've had on Newkit in absolutely ages.

Night All :cool:

PS. City and Villa both fooked it up tonight! That 4th spot isn't completely out of reach yet!

by **Igor Zidane** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:13 am

Night scott , .

by **Benny The Noon** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:13 am

Catch you later Scott and agree its been good to just talk about football for a change without the insults flying about

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:14 am

Igor Zidane wrote:
s@int wrote:
Igor Zidane wrote:
s@int wrote:Not all mate , he has bought a fair bit of cr@p, but I am pretty sure with the right manager they will be performing above and beyond the call of duty and the cups will come rolling in.

Ok i'll play along saint . Say rafa gets sacked or resigns and we get whichever manager you want . Do you think with the financial restraints the new manager will still have , and the squad he will still have playing probably in the uefa cup . That said manager (whomever he is ) will have the cups coming rolling in? I'm not talking about Rafa here or his good and bad points . I'm talking about the new man in charge . How is he going to rebuild a squad to challenge for the league , a squad which is obviously not good enough at the minute (rafa's fault or not ) . He will not be able to go and get villa unless he sells torres or messi unless he sells torres and gerrard . Any manager coming in is on a loser from the off if the fans expect him to compete in all comps like we have been before this season .

This is were I disagree with the Rafa supporters Igor. I think we have a good team that is not performing anywhere near to its potential. We have 5 world class players, Englands best right back, a couple of excellent cb's a £20million pound midfield player, and a few decent squad players. A pretty good basis for ANY manager.

The problem we have is we are not getting anything like the best out of these players, and I believe that we need them all to be playing to their potential if we are going to see the cups rolling in. (Either that or a couple of £100million)

We won NOTHING the year before Dalglish took over, we won the league and cup double in his first season. He bought only one player yet still managed to turn things around.

If we had the money , maybe we could afford to wait and see if Rafa could turn things around( however unlikely), we don't have the money so we can't wait and do nothing, we need to bring in a manager that can inspire the players and get more out of them.

Its either that or just accepting that we can't compete and the inevitable slide to midtable obscurity.

I believe that when Rafa came he inspired a lot of underperforming players who no longer believed in the manager, I think we need a new manager capable of doing the very same thing now.

Your argument is like saying Crouch only scored 14 goals from the chances we created...... why should Torres score any more than that?

That wasn't a pro rafa post mate . What i'm trying to get at ( i've already come to terms that rafa's going ) is who ever we get as rafa's replacement be it mourinho , hiddink whoever .Will have to work with what he has got and to buy better players than he's got i.e kuyt lucas and insua he's going to have to get the money from somewhere . He will have to sell to buy , or use the players he's got now . Not forgetting that certain star players have already intimated that they will be off if there is no investment . IMO we will never be challenging again whilst we have the owners we have whoever the manager is . People had better get used to it if there not willing to help get rid of the owners and roll over and let G+H sh!t all over them (not you like lash ) . There are squad players that need replacing and i don't know where the dosh is coming from . I think our strongest 11 can compete , but will they still be here and if they are who can we afford that's better than what we've got as back up . That's the reality we and the new manager is looking at i'm afraid .

Good post mate. I agree that our main problem whoever the manager is has to be the owners. The truth is that unless or until they go money is going to be in short supply, surely then the only option is to try to get the best out of what we have, rather than moaning about what we won't get.

Fighting to get the owners out shouldn't mean that we have to accept that the team can do no better mate.

by **shawnk** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:18 am

stmichael wrote:The thing is, it's far more likely, given our owners, that whoever comes in will take us even further back than move us forward.

When you haven't got the resources to compete for the first team players you want and pay the extortionate wages they command these days, when you look at Chelsea, Utd and City's spending power, then you have to find other ways to compete. Unfortunately for us that means being patient with the youth players or getting extremely lucky with bargain buys.

Sad times

Gotta disagree with this. We have lost to the likes of Portsmouth and Reading this season just to name two most significant losses, not to mention 10 total loses in the Premiership. This has got NOTHING to do with the owner as the current squad can beat the sh!t out of those team if the right players/formation/strategy were picked correctly. And we cant blame it on luck too, it was a bad performance.

by **Benny The Noon** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:19 am

s@int wrote:Good post mate. I agree that our main problem whoever the manager is has to be the owners. The truth is that unless or until they go money is going to be in short supply, surely then the only option is to try to get the best out of what we have, rather than moaning about what we won't get.

Fighting to get the owners out shouldn't mean that we have to accept that the team can do no better mate.

The bit in bold mate is for me the main sticking point in why imo i dont think we would get someone like maureen etc .

We get bought out or loads of money then its a whole different ball game

im off as well cheers for a good debate

by **Igor Zidane** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:25 am

s@int wrote:
Igor Zidane wrote:
s@int wrote:
Igor Zidane wrote:
s@int wrote:Not all mate , he has bought a fair bit of cr@p, but I am pretty sure with the right manager they will be performing above and beyond the call of duty and the cups will come rolling in.

Ok i'll play along saint . Say rafa gets sacked or resigns and we get whichever manager you want . Do you think with the financial restraints the new manager will still have , and the squad he will still have playing probably in the uefa cup . That said manager (whomever he is ) will have the cups coming rolling in? I'm not talking about Rafa here or his good and bad points . I'm talking about the new man in charge . How is he going to rebuild a squad to challenge for the league , a squad which is obviously not good enough at the minute (rafa's fault or not ) . He will not be able to go and get villa unless he sells torres or messi unless he sells torres and gerrard . Any manager coming in is on a loser from the off if the fans expect him to compete in all comps like we have been before this season .

This is were I disagree with the Rafa supporters Igor. I think we have a good team that is not performing anywhere near to its potential. We have 5 world class players, Englands best right back, a couple of excellent cb's a £20million pound midfield player, and a few decent squad players. A pretty good basis for ANY manager.

The problem we have is we are not getting anything like the best out of these players, and I believe that we need them all to be playing to their potential if we are going to see the cups rolling in. (Either that or a couple of £100million)

We won NOTHING the year before Dalglish took over, we won the league and cup double in his first season. He bought only one player yet still managed to turn things around.

If we had the money , maybe we could afford to wait and see if Rafa could turn things around( however unlikely), we don't have the money so we can't wait and do nothing, we need to bring in a manager that can inspire the players and get more out of them.

Its either that or just accepting that we can't compete and the inevitable slide to midtable obscurity.

I believe that when Rafa came he inspired a lot of underperforming players who no longer believed in the manager, I think we need a new manager capable of doing the very same thing now.

Your argument is like saying Crouch only scored 14 goals from the chances we created...... why should Torres score any more than that?

That wasn't a pro rafa post mate . What i'm trying to get at ( i've already come to terms that rafa's going ) is who ever we get as rafa's replacement be it mourinho , hiddink whoever .Will have to work with what he has got and to buy better players than he's got i.e kuyt lucas and insua he's going to have to get the money from somewhere . He will have to sell to buy , or use the players he's got now . Not forgetting that certain star players have already intimated that they will be off if there is no investment . IMO we will never be challenging again whilst we have the owners we have whoever the manager is . People had better get used to it if there not willing to help get rid of the owners and roll over and let G+H sh!t all over them (not you like lash ) . There are squad players that need replacing and i don't know where the dosh is coming from . I think our strongest 11 can compete , but will they still be here and if they are who can we afford that's better than what we've got as back up . That's the reality we and the new manager is looking at i'm afraid .

Good post mate. I agree that our main problem whoever the manager is has to be the owners. The truth is that unless or until they go money is going to be in short supply, surely then the only option is to try to get the best out of what we have, rather than moaning about what we won't get.

Fighting to get the owners out shouldn't mean that we have to accept that the team can do no better mate.

I agree the team may do better ,but in all honesty i can't see us competeing . Spurs , villa , city are all being backed now and we have to try and stay with them . I just can't see where it's coming from . No manger and i mean no manager can make money . appear out of thin air . We do need investment to compete mate ,otherwise it's a visious circle and we'll be going around and around until we get another manager and another.

by **bigmick** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:52 am

In a strange way getting rid of rafa may help in the fight to get rid of the owners. I do think on occasions he dilutes the vitriol they may get, with some punters (such as me for instance) thinking getting rid of him is the number one priority if the football club is to have any success.

by **tubby** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:12 am

bigmick wrote:In a strange way getting rid of rafa may help in the fight to get rid of the owners. I do think on occasions he dilutes the vitriol they may get, with some punters (such as me for instance) thinking getting rid of him is the number one priority if the football club is to have any success.

Doesn't really make any difference for me mate as the owners are still here.

Yes Rafas position maybe need to be looked at but we have our best players saying they will be off if we don't bring in more players of similar quality. Rafa going now or in the summer isn't going to make any differnce as we are still waiting for investment or a takeover.

by **Penguins** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:53 am

That's the main problem. I believe there are other managers with a different philosophy and view on football who could do a better job than Rafa. BUT...

What I mean by better job isn't challenging for the title but putting up a better fight getting 3rd or 4th with maybe 7-8 losses in the season. No manager will be able to come in, and if lucky being allowed to keep what we have but not improve the squad, and all of a sudden make us world beaters.
We will most likely stand still in the player department while Spurs, City, Villa will most likely invest and improve further on their squads.

With the situation we are in now I can see a Hodgson type of manger come in and at best get us 3rd-4th the 1st season. And if nothing changes the following season(s) with no investment we would really drop out of the top 4 indefinitely.
The squad isn't good enough in some departments and we are overly depandant on a few players producing the goods.

It's not like Rafa is some kind of huge boulder stopping us from filling up the trophy cabinet as there will be no more trophies if owners doesn't invest in the team. But there are probably managers who could do better than Rafa right now.
Getting rid of him will not be some kind of miracle cure though where all will be well and we will go a winning spree just cause a new manger comes in with no money to spend, no matter if it is Mourinho or Steve Bruce.

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