Liverpool FC Forum

by **Owzat** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:16 am

This board normally goes for "faithometers" which somewhat varied options that do and don't assess the manager. But how highly do you rate Rafa in terms of some of the more obvious 'skills', or things he needs to get right, we normally associate with managers?

SCALE 1-5

1= Poor
2 = Disappointing
3 = Average
4 = Good
5 = Excellent

SKILLS

SIGNINGS - taking into account money available, quality, quantity, whether they are bargains or rip-offs. Does he focus enough on signings for the here and now, or too much on future "stars" that may never come to fruition?

SQUAD - linked in with signings and tactics. Is the squad balanced? Is it strong?

TACTICS - does he get formations right? Do they suit the team we are playing against? Do you always rate the selections? Is he too defensive? Is he able to change them effectively to counter problems or if things aren't going as planned? Does zonal marking work? Do players get given long enough?

SUBSTITUTIONS - timing and effectiveness, choices coming on and going off.

PRIORITISATION - too much focus on the Champions League? Too little focus on the domestic cups? Does he think one game at a time or can you see a bit too much awareness of other forthcoming games? (in selections and substitutions)

MEDIA RELATIONS - how do you rate him on what he says to the media, does he say too much in "Rafa rants" ? Does he come out of interviews and conferences looking clever or stupid?

So scale is 1-5, the 'skills' are below with some of the subcategories included so you can copy and paste

SIGNINGS
Value
Quality
Balance (youth vs experience)
Longevity
SQUAD
Balance
Strength
TACTICS
Starting formation
Team selection
In-game-management
Balance (attack/defence)
Marking system
SUBSTITUTIONS
Timing
Effectiveness
PRIORITISATION

MEDIA RELATIONS

I've left out man management because that would mainly be speculation, but if you want to rate him on that then go for it. You may feel media relations is not really something you care if he's any good at, it certainly is low in my consideration since it is what happens on the pitch that matters and that largely shapes what goes on with the media and also determines success.

I could put in success, but that can be made up of a number of factors which are the skills The reason I came up with this thread was to assess how good a manager we think he is, whether he has the skills that will shape said success. We had a good win in Europe in 2004/05, but that was far from convincing and with predominantly Houllier's team. Now Rafa has his own team the cup finals have dried up. Coincidence? Whether he stays or goes should be based on whether he has the management skills to win the league, with or without a shedload of £££ to spend.

10 of the players used in the 2005 CL final were Houllier signings, just two were Rafa signings.

In the 2006 FA Cup final, six Houllier signings played, two on the bench and six Rafa signings.

In the 2007 CL final nine of the players used in the final were Rafa signings of whom five have gone already (as have two of the Rafa signings on the bench)

You could argue none of Rafa's teams have won a trophy, even the 2006 FA Cup winning side was only half Rafa's. Yes he was in charge of the team, but was it his input that won the game or that of the players? That said he didn't win the CL final or FA Cup final, they were decided on penalties. All three of his biggest trophies were won aet, the scorers were Gerrard (x3), Cisse (x3), Alonso, Smicer and Luis Garcia - Rafa signed just two of those players.

by **kazza** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:32 am

I see where this would give more information, but I question the timing of the thread. We got none of these type threads when we were playing well last year.

by **Ciggy** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:43 am

kazza wrote:I see where this would give more information, but I question the timing of the thread. We got none of these type threads when we were playing well last year.

People should get a card for starting more Rafa topics, I am fucking sick of them, repeated old sh!te, going round in circles.

Zonal marking, Rotation, players bought & sold, clubs he used to manage, what colour undies does he wear, what did he have for his tea last night?

You get my drift.

Not only have we got every single journo under the sun sticking the boot in, we have a lot of our fan base doing exactly the same thing.

Its not fucking on, if you want him gone/sacked well use the Sack him topic instead of adding to the other 2000 Rafa topics that already exsist on here.

It really is starting to get on my t!ts !!!!!!!!

http://www.liverpoolfc-newkit.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=27082

http://www.liverpoolfc-newkit.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=27215

http://www.liverpoolfc-newkit.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=27185&start=160&hilit=new

http://www.liverpoolfc-newkit.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=27203

http://www.liverpoolfc-newkit.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=26998

http://www.liverpoolfc-newkit.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=27182

http://www.liverpoolfc-newkit.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=27154

http://www.liverpoolfc-newkit.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=3646

http://www.liverpoolfc-newkit.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=27081

by **Festy** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:47 am

SACK HIM. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. :angry:

by **The_Rock** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:49 am

yeah........performance appraisal time. My fav time of the year........

SIGNINGS - 2.5
Border line pass grade. He has done well with the spine of the team with Reina, Skertel, Agger, Mash, Gerrard, Torres... but the other signing in the range of 5 to 10 million have been horrondous...

SQUAD - 2
Not balanced at all.........Every season we have some deficiency in the squad. If it wasn't a right winger one season, it was centreback another season. Now in his 6th year....we still have a short fall of a real right winger, don't really have a commanding centreback who is good in the air..... No real back up for torres.... I mean Benitez fixes one part of the team....and another part of the team falls apart.

TACTICS - 3 in the premierleague. 4.5 in the champions league

SUBSTITUTIONS - 2.5 a pass grade

PRIORITISATION - 3

MEDIA RELATIONS - 1 - The media hates benitez....guess why ? they ask him a question and he gives a totally nonrelevant answer. Why do you think they media loves it when benitez makes a mistake ?

by **Judge** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:54 am

aritcle from this is anfield site

WHETHER you love or hate Rafa Benitez, put yourself in the Spaniard’s shoes for a moment.

After a lifetime living and working in Spain, after guiding Valencia to the most successful period in their history with a first title in 31 years followed up by a La Liga and UEFA Cup double, you choose to leave your home country behind to come to England and manage Liverpool.

You make that decision despite other, more lucrative offers lying on the table back in June 2004 – from Spurs, Inter Milan and Besiktas.

But you plump for Liverpool, drawn by its standing and heritage, inheriting an underachieving, average squad which looked certain to lose two of its best players in Michael Owen and Steven Gerrard.

For five years you live and work in a foreign country, putting your heart and soul into the manager’s job at a football club where resources don’t match the expectations.

You master a new language, work up to 22-hour days, change players’ diets and training methods and even enjoy an infamous drink in Germany with Liverpool fans.

You left one job where directors refused to sign players you wanted and interfered with transfer dealings (sparking your infamous “I asked the club for a sofa and they bought me a lampshade” quote) and walked into another one with similar problems.

You were told by co-owner George Gillett you could sign “Snoogy Doogy” if that’s who you wanted – but then you were told you couldn’t sign Simao, Gareth Barry, Michael Dawson, David Villa, David Silva, Kenwyne Jones, Ryan Shawcross and countless others.

You had a club co-owner open talks with Jurgen Klinsmann about succeeding you as manager – and found out about it through the newspapers.

You signed Xabi Alonso, Fernando Torres, Pepe Reina, Javier Mascherano, Luis Garcia, Yossi Benayoun, Dirk Kuyt, Glen Johnson, Emiliano Inusa, Momo Sissoko, Alvaro Arbeloa, Daniel Agger and Peter Crouch – then people kept saying you have a terrible record in the transfer market.

In your first season, despite a poor squad, you won the Champions League in one of the most thrilling matches in football history. Key to the run to the final was your ability to squeeze out quality performances from limited players, most notably Igor Biscan.

You also reached the League Cup final in that first season, losing to Chelsea 3-2 after extra time, and finished fifth in the league.

The following season you won the FA Cup, beating Manchester United and Chelsea on the way to the final, when West Ham were edged out on penalties. In the league you guided Liverpool to third, missing out on the runners-up spot by just one point.

That FA Cup success in Cardiff made you the only manager in the history of Liverpool Football Club to win major trophies in both of the first two seasons at the club.

A year later you guided Liverpool to another Champions League final, again knocking out Chelsea on the way. This time it wasn’t to be, but you could be forgiven for thinking people may recognise that it is no mean feat to get that far – and no disgrace to lose to AC Milan.

In the league, you took us to third place again.

But 2007-8 was a poor year for you. You only reached the semi-finals of the Champions League and finished fourth in the league. Your job was offered to Klinsmann though, so maybe you could be forgiven for taking your eye off the ball.

And so to last season. Quarter-finals of the Champions League, runners-up in the league with 86 points. The only team in English top-flight history to lose so few games and not be crowned champions.

The best points total since 1988, but also the highest of any side in a 20-team league not to win the championship.

Fair to say, you were unlucky. You took us so close to the much-coveted number 19.

And let’s not forget, you’ve won 57 per cent of your games in charge of Liverpool, the same as Bob Paisley.

So with all that in mind, you deserve some respect, right? You’ve done a great job in trying circumstances. You’ve proved you are what they said you were when you arrived from Valencia – a world-class manager.

But it’s not enough. You’ve lost four games out of nine this season. You’ve sold a player, Xabi Alonso, who wanted to leave the club, for a huge profit to the biggest club in his home country.

You might think your excellent record buys you some time in the job at Anfield and some patience from the fans, just like it does for Arsene Wenger, trophyless with Arsenal since 2005.

Well not for some people. They’ve had enough. They want Jose Mourinho. A man in a job at Inter Milan, with a huge salary. A man who would cost a lot of money in compensation and in wages. Oh and we’d have to pay you off too, Rafa. But hang on, there’s no money…

What’s that Rafa? You’re resigning? You don’t feel appreciated? You’ve had enough of fickle fans on phone-ins and internet forums sniping and moaning? Had enough of media men calling you “cold”, slagging off your tactics, harping on about zonal marking and questioning the timing of your substitutions?

Hypothetical, of course. But it could happen. And it would be a huge problem for Liverpool if it did.

Mourinho, Guus Hiddink, Fabio Capello…all top managers that trigger-happy fans have been mentioning as they debate Rafa’s replacement.

But why would any of them come to Anfield? No money to spend, owners that hate each other, sky-high expectations and a demand for immediate results…

Hardly the dream job is it?

When Benitez was trying to renegotiate his contract at Valencia in 2004 he said: “My ideal scenario was continue the work I had started at Valencia.

“But the managing director said to me, ‘If I give you two more years on your contract and then you lose three matches it is going to be my problem!” If that was how much respect my three years of work had earned, then it seemed obvious to me that they had little interest in me staying.”

He later said: “It appears that I’m valued more outside the club than I am at Valencia itself.”

Deja vu?

It’s clear he likes to be loved. And for his record at Liverpool, he deserves to be. But if people turn against him so quickly, whose to say he won’t pack it in? It’s not like he would struggle to get another job.

In the first post-Benitez year at Valencia, the club finished seventh, 26 points behind La Liga champions Barcelona.

If Benitez resigns, or, as unlikely as it is given the financial situation, is sacked, Liverpool could go backwards too.

I wonder what Alan Curbishley is doing these days…

by **Reg** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:01 pm

I bet Rafa wishes he could nuke the internet.

by **Fauxy** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:08 pm

SIGNINGS - 3 I want to put four because he has made some really great signings: torres, reina, agger, alonso etc but the bad signings he has made bring it down. Saying that there has been no signing that I have ever really questioned Keane looked like a good one, as did Babel, Dossena, Pennant .. they just somehow didnt work though. Lucas is coming good so im not going to add him to that list.

SQUAD - 2 There are versatile players on the bench which is always god to have. But it is not balanced and doesnt have depth.

TACTICS - 4 I think Rafa is a genius with tactics, he has pulled some amazing things off, especially in the champions league. He does have the midfield too defensive against lower opposition though but i guess thats more down to his squad selection.

SUBSTITUTIONS - 3 Most of the time i agree with the subs he makes, but sometimes he makes a random bizzare sub which leaves me puzzled.

PRIORITISATION - 4 I think he does a good job of prioritising. He doesnt really surprise me that much with team selections in any league or cup.
MEDIA RELATIONS - 2 He makes a lot of good points and criticizes fergie for all the right reasons. What gives him bad media relations is that he is very unclear on the answers he gives and doesnt stick to them like when asked about if keane was going to stay he said.. he will stay.

by **tonyeh** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:29 pm

SIGNINGS - 2 Very disapointed overall. Despite some truly good buys, Torres and Reina, the vast majority have been truly awful...Voronin, Babel, Lucas, Dossena, etc. In addition, his handling of some players once signed has been appaling, Crouch and keane being the obvious cases. John Giles said on Wednesday that a manager's job is probably 80% signings. If that's the case, then Benitez has been extremely poor in the department he should most focus on.

SQUAD - 2 Five years and Liverpool still look like the poor cousins to the others in the so-called Big 4. The squad is far too thin, despite having a huge number of players on the payrole.

TACTICS - 2.5 Generally negative. Some people think he's a "tactical genius". I think that's bunkum. He's far too restrictive IMO and plays not lose rather than to win. Besides two months of excellent football at the end of last season (when Benitez had effectively thrown in the towel re: the Premiership), the majority of Liverpool's football has been one of struggle. So much so, that ANY team is capable of beating them, or at least getting a draw. His constant use of a single striker has been one of my bugbears for a long time now, but I cannot see Benitez changing from his beloved 4-2-3-1 formation. I think Benitez is FAR too rigid in his tactical outlook. He'd rather beat that square peg into the round hole than simple moving it.

SUBSTITUTIONS - 1 Terrible. No subs til his usual post 60th minute. Too rigid. Some of his choices of subs have been incredible baffling, if not destructive and have drawn boos from the Anfield crowd. Some say he hasn't much choice on the bench...but then we're back to the damning indicment of the squad and signings, which are down to him. So, he only really has himself to blame.

PRIORITISATION - Ronnie Whelan said that Benitez focuses on the CL, because doing well in that competition increases his profile in Europe and that's where Benitez wants to be in teh future. I think he has something in that. If it's the case or not, it's clear to everyone that Benitez is far more motivated by the CL than he is by the Premiership. The problem is, that most Liverpool fans would trade a CL title for a Premiership title any day of the week.

MEDIA RELATIONS - 2.5 Most of the time, Benitez just gives the standard blurbs. Nothing against that, as most managers do it. Sometimes he just tells outright porkies (again he's not alone). The rant last season surly was one of the worst decisions he has ever made re: the media. However, it wasn't the reason for the subsequent bad run of games as some people have suggested.

by **Benny The Noon** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:11 pm

Is this just not another excuse to have a good old fashioned dig at our own manager ? That post that judge is spot on with regards this place.

p.s. Tonyeh - with regards subs - it was shown that last season liverpool turned round more games after making changes than anyone else did during the season - so im guessing his subs werent all bad.

Tactics - We for bunkum with a poor formation- he has managed to tatically out manouvere most of the best managers and teams in europe over the years as well as scoring goals for fun last season .

by **Reg** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:43 pm

I appreciate most posters enjoy living in a box and hate any notion of Rafa actually being any good at his job.... but.... the english speaking ESPN overseas commentators for the Lyon game gave Rafa great credit for their performance the other night in containing one of the best flowing sides in europe for teh full 90 minutes, they were completely stymied. Similarly the ESPN Brazilian commentators have been singing the guys praises for weeks over the startegies and performances LFC put in against more dangerous opposition - home and abroad.

I know its fashionable to slag the lad off, but its normally due to the mental limitations of the poster rather than the reality of the situation.

Needless to say I didnt know which 'I hate Rafa' thread to post this comment in so I randomnly chose this one. Tedious really.

by **tonyeh** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:38 pm

I know its fashionable to slag the lad off, but its normally due to the mental limitations of the poster rather than the reality of the situation.

Oh come on Reg, you're much better than this.

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:27 pm

As I was saying HERE, I've rejigged the title of this thread with the idea this will become THE thread on these boards that attempts to analyze and assess Rafa's management in an in-depth manner. I think Owzat's started the ball rolling quite nicely with his thread opener and hopefully people can move away from the polarized pro and anti camps and generate some good discussion in here.

This, then, is not the thread for venting frustrations, hurling insults, calling Rafa sh!te, calling players sh!te, calling fellow posters sh!te, trotting out the tried and true 'sack him, end of!' or 'best manager since Shankly. FACT.' or any of that old bollox. If that's what you like, get yourself over to the "Sack Him" thread and froth at the mouth to your heart's content (within reason, of course!

). I'll be keeping a close eye on this thread to make sure that proper discussion doesn't get crowded out or shouted down.

by **lakes10** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:07 pm

SIGNINGS overall the ones he has gpt right he got them very right, but when he got them wrong he got them very wrong.

Value 2 wasted a lot of money and time on the 67

Quality 3

Balance (youth vs experience) 3

Longevity 2

SQUAD
Balance 1
Strength 2
TACTICS
Starting formation 2
Team selection 1
In-game-management 2

Balance (attack/defence) 3
Marking system 2

SUBSTITUTIONS
Timing 1 65-67, teams know that now and it dont always give the players time to get the game back
Effectiveness 2 well thats a hard one, the ones that did not work tend to stand out more

PRIORITISATION 1 too much CL for me

MEDIA RELATIONS 1 very poor, he started to look a fool last year

by **Greavesie** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:28 pm

SIGNINGS
overall he hasn't been too bad, when he's had the money hes actually brought in decent players. Keane is a good player it just didn't work thats all (but he's the anomale in the expensive Rafa signings) - with a FULLY FIT squad we might actually have a very strong (potentially title winning) squad as well as a solid bench. Doesn't look like much is coming through the ranks however - 3

SQUAD
A lot of us were saying we could and should challenge for the title this season so a lot of us abviously believe the squad is good enough. Our lack of depth has shown a bit this season but with 10 potentials first teamers out I defy anyone to choose another team in the league where depth wouldnt be exposed. We dont have the wages to be able to pay players £100,000 a week to warm the bench, aint gonna happen. Theres also a lt of versatility in there - 3

TACTICS
well the 4-2-3-1 was to accomodate Xabi and Masch in the same formation, hopefully when Aqua gets in there the balance will appear. Till then none of us can really judge that. His team selections sometimes baffle and it doesn't always backfire. the substitutions thing p!sses me off a bit n all - generally though over the five year period he's been fairly solid IMO - 4

SUBSTITUTIONS
annoys me how late he leaves it but he's not all bad. I remember having 8 attacking players on the pitch against Wigan when chasing the gme and winning it eventually and obviously the Hamman for Finnan aaaaages ago (just wanted to get that in there lads

). It only ever comes under the microscope when it backfires which is pretty annoying. The Torres things getting blown WAY out of proportion. The number of comebacks we made last season was special - 2

PRIORITIES
After three years with nothing I can't really say he prioritises anything. I do think he PREFERS Europe because he's a foreign manager and success in Europe is a bit of a foreign ideal BUT we might want to give nando a slap n all beause he LOVES that competition as well

I really don't know how to answer this to be honest. Priority should be every trophy, not one. So no number from me then. I love the European nights tho and I defy anyone to say they don't.

MEDIA RELATIONS
He's had some funny ones IMO, the England manager thing

'I am focusing on training and managing my team', that was class. Sticking it to fergie last year, needed said by someone but Rafa? perhaps not but whats done is done. He's never lost his rag about anything and kept his cool all the time, even when doing 'the rant' - 3

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