Rafa. a victim of circumstance..... - Or has he fecked it up?

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Postby bigmick » Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:57 pm

I'm talking here about from the end of last season until now only.

Now if we take the second place and four points behind/record points total/playing some of the best football we've played for years etc etc as not a flash in the pan or a fluke, we must also give the manager credit for taking us there over five years. There's no question that that team, playing in that way, was a long way removed from the team which he had when he took over. In that sense, it is easy to make the argument that there had been "progression", and for the purposes of this thread, lets just assume it as a given.

So how did we get from there to here? Is it just one of those things, just an unexplainable bliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiip that will right itself given time? Is it simply that we've been a bit unlucky, what with balloongate, a couple of injuries to key players, Aquilani not actually being "ready in a month" etc? Is it perhaps that Rafa wasn't given enough money to spend in the Summer? We know he spent 38 million quid or thereabouts but pulled in 33, is it not his fault and the reason that we aren't doing better is simply because he wasn't given more cash? Did he think he was getting more and then had the plug pulled (the "plughole theory"), is it "fecking Purslow :angry:" and actually his fault?

Did we over invest on Johnson even though he's top notch, and would we have been better off getting a different right back, Gareth Barry instead of Aquilani perhaps? Is our decline the result of a gradual disillusionment with rafa's "coldness", his lack of "the arm around the shoulder" approach gradually wearing thin with players? Are we paying the price for too many of the squad being not up to it, too many "option and possibility" buys?

Lots of questions there. I'll open it up with the "Lucasgate" theory. I think it was a very poor piece of judgement to take a view that Lucas/Masherano could hold the fort until the more creative midfielder was available. I'm not necessarily blaming Lucas (although he isn't good enough to be fair to the lad) I'm blaming Rafa for thinking he could hack it initially, then even worse solving the problem by moving Gerrard back and then continually revisiting it to prove it doesn't work.

Quite simply, given our personel we shouldn't have bought Aquilani unless we were prepared to play Gerrard in central midfield. It was excusable just about for a game or two, but not to stick with it.
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Postby Kopite-Jud » Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:59 pm

I dont see the point in Lucas :)
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Postby Lando_Griffin » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:02 pm

Another Rafa-bashing thread.

How thoroughly original...
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Rafa Benitez - An unfinished Legend.
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Postby bigmick » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:05 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:Another Rafa-bashing thread.

How thoroughly original...

You may not be interested in talking about football, that's entirely your privialge and true to form. Others are though, and even think that's what the forum is actually for.

Now if you don't wish to talk about football, go away.
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Postby Reg » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:06 pm

Time for bed everyone, off you go.

Mick... you too mate, a few extra hours never hurt anyone. :laugh:
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Postby Dazzer » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:07 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:Another Rafa-bashing thread.

How thoroughly original...

Go back under the rock you came from under.

You only pop up when you getting some air from giving rafa head let the man say his peice he is always fair in his views if you bothered to ever read his posts with out spunk in ya eye ya soft prat you might see that.

He only asking the questions most of us are thinking about.  :nod
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Postby bigmick » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:10 pm

Reg wrote:Time for bed everyone, off you go.

Mick... you too mate, a few extra hours never hurt anyone. :laugh:

Feck me Reg I've just got up :( Oh Ok then, get me mug of Horlicks on the go and I'll grab me book and see if I drop off.
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Postby Dazzer » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:14 pm

Hey mick I think you pretty much spot on most points.I personal feel most years we would as fans take a Glen johnson type signing as a plus but this year losing a player like Alonso and missing that key player in the spine of team we really needed to replace like for like.On top of that buying a lad who is out for 2-3 months at start of season and expecting a brazilian 22 year old lad with only 2 years on and off experience as a key replacement is crazy if you ask me.But its one of those things if it works out I am sure most rafa lovers be saying rafa is a god as it stands it seems it has cost us the title once agian.
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Postby Gerrard30391 » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:15 pm

Lando doesnt know the meaning of football posting. Every post has to contain a swear word. I give him til Xmas. Ok he hasn't had the money but the team could challenge last year, so why not this?
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Postby bigmick » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:19 pm

I'll offer up a "pro Rafa" reason as well in the interests of balance. Carragher is fairly obviously not anywhere near what he was last season, and nobody could have forsaw his decline would be so steep. I think Rafa has been caught out by that, but I wouldn't necessarily blame him to be honest.
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Postby Dazzer » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:22 pm

bigmick wrote:I'll offer up a "pro Rafa" reason as well in the interests of balance. Carragher is fairly obviously not anywhere near what he was last season, and nobody could have forsaw his decline would be so steep. I think Rafa has been caught out by that, but I wouldn't necessarily blame him to be honest.

I seen it mick I just wouldn't have dared say it here with out getting death threats.  :laugh:

Just joking I was kinda hoping it was just a dodgy spell tbh but really way we hold onto ball atm really isn't helping carra atm tho tbph and fair.
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Postby tonyeh » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:24 pm

Because the team rode it's luck A LOT last year and had the benefit of the "others" not performing too well on occasion.

Bar a few weeks of truly spectacular football, the majority of last season was pretty rubbish and if Arsenal, Chelsea and Utd were on top of their games all season, we would have been nowhere near 2nd spot.

This year the luck has well and truly deserted us and it seems that we just cannot rely of the "team" to do the business.
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Postby Greavesie » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:24 pm

and so the football discussion begins :D
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Postby Not Too Xabi » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:27 pm

Broadly speaking, we can no longer control a game.

Last season, we had a relatively tight defence and a midfield partnership in Alonso and Mascherano that had a balance and an ability to control the midfield better than almost every team we faced. Control the midfield and you control the game (if you don't leak silly goals).

We have lost the ability to defend for some reason, particularly at set pieces, and Lucas and Mascherano (in this form) aren't controlling the midfield. We are therefore losing games - in fact, every game we've played anyone half decent.

Like most things in life the blame isn't clear. In theory, we should arguably be better defensively. Johnson is a definate improvement over Arbeloa. Carra's and Skrtle's form have both been very poor which probably couldn't have been predicted. I can't really blame Rafa too much here in terms of planning. Team selection issues have largely been taken out of his hands by injury (Agger and Aurelio).

The midfield situation is more damning for Rafa IMO. I pretty much agree with Mick here. Alonso is a huge loss and the gamble of Aquilani hasn't paid off (Rafa's poor man management has to be called in to question here too). Lucas hasn't done enough although he isn't as bad as is often made out. He just can't influence the game enough. Gerrard should've been played there. As this is the main area IMO that is causing our poor showing of late - Rafa has to bear the brunt of the criticism.

We needed to buy a forward too. We didn't and I don't think we know enough about the financial constraints to easily lay blame for that. We did spend a fair amount of money in the summer but we'll never know what was promised or possible deals that didn't work out etc... I suspect Rafa did want to improve the forward options but saw his priorites elsewhere. Dubious in hindsight.   

In summary, the defensive frailties we are showing are unfortunate for Rafa but the blame for the midfield and attacking problems have to lie with him one way or another.
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Postby LFC2007 » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:30 pm

bigmick wrote:Lots of questions there. I'll open it up with the "Lucasgate" theory. I think it was a very poor piece of judgement to take a view that Lucas/Masherano could hold the fort until the more creative midfielder was available. I'm not necessarily blaming Lucas (although he isn't good enough to be fair to the lad) I'm blaming Rafa for thinking he could hack it initially, then even worse solving the problem by moving Gerrard back and then continually revisiting it to prove it doesn't work.

Quite simply, given our personel we shouldn't have bought Aquilani unless we were prepared to play Gerrard in central midfield. It was excusable just about for a game or two, but not to stick with it.

I'm a little surprised by this. I seem to recall a time in pre-season when you advocated Lucas playing alongside Masch in midfield at the start of the season. Indeed, IIRC, you even argued for his inclusion alongside Masch after the Spurs and Stoke games and before the Villa game.

Commence the criticism from a later date by all means.
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