Liverpool FC Forum

by **LegBarnes** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:51 pm

GYBS wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:
GYBS wrote:
Ciggy wrote:
GYBS wrote:kuyt was one of the main reasons we hit the top spot last year .

I think you will find that it was the reappearance of Xabi Alonso contributed to our winning streak.

yes he was also another one of the main reasons ciggy - hence why i didnt say kuyt was the main reason .

No ciggy meens the main reason was alonso kuyt hit a few lucky shots all his goals are luck he really has no shooting skill its hit and hope with him.

400 shots to get 20 goals is kuyt.

I bet my house that babel takes less shots to get goals.

oh jesus christ now your just being silly now arent you . the guy has scored goals all over the place and now your saying every single one is lucky ?!?!?

Ok to prove my point how many goals has kuyt placed into the net ?

None that I can remember thats a sign of a player with finishing.

hit and hope is no skill and mostly luck.

As a player If i 1v1 I try to place it but if keeper has good position I have to hit harder and then there is some luck.

But kuyt just hits them as hard as he can every time thus leaving it to ladie luck.

No one can hit the ball that hard and control where it goes 100%

by **GYBS** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:52 pm

LegBarnes wrote:
GYBS wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:
GYBS wrote:
Ciggy wrote:
GYBS wrote:kuyt was one of the main reasons we hit the top spot last year .

I think you will find that it was the reappearance of Xabi Alonso contributed to our winning streak.

yes he was also another one of the main reasons ciggy - hence why i didnt say kuyt was the main reason .

No ciggy meens the main reason was alonso kuyt hit a few lucky shots all his goals are luck he really has no shooting skill its hit and hope with him.

400 shots to get 20 goals is kuyt.

I bet my house that babel takes less shots to get goals.

oh jesus christ now your just being silly now arent you . the guy has scored goals all over the place and now your saying every single one is lucky ?!?!?

Ok to prove my point how many goals has kuyt placed into the net ?

None that I can remember thats a sign of a player with finishing.

hit and hope is no skill and mostly luck.

As a player If i 1v1 I try to place it but if keeper has good position I have to hit harder and then there is some luck.

But kuyt just hits them as hard as he can every time thus leaving it to ladie luck.

No one can hit the ball that hard and control where it goes 100%

and you know exactly what goes through his mind every time he hits a shot ? did you know that most of shearers shots were hit with power and lots of power . if you are using the fact that kuyt hits his shots with power then you have failed in a massive way .

by **LegBarnes** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:58 pm

GYBS wrote:and you know exactly what goes through his mind every time he hits a shot ? did you know that most of shearers shots were hit with power and lots of power .

Nope they wasn't I remember even his pens he used to place top right hand corner untill he hit his early 31s onwards where he pref the bottom corner , maybe just due to age and not having the control for it any more.

Tbh tho talk to any pro and he tell you the same thing harder you hit the ball less control you have over it and more lcuk plays its parts.

Ronaldos free kicks awesome when they go in but how many do not many.

Then you have beckham who places his free kicks less power but he is 70% on target say ronaldo is around 50 maybe even 40%.

But don't get me wrong shearer did score some screamers in his time but even he would say there was some luck to play in those shots.

by **GYBS** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:10 pm

then you need to go watch vids of shearer all over again

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:18 pm

LegBarnes wrote:Bob I know you got problem with me due to every post I make you pop up to blow some hot air on it , is it because like the player babel or is it just I know a little more about football.

Nah, mate, I've got no problems with you whatsoever. You make me laugh, is all. Every once in a while you come bounding in here with some new statistic 'proving' that most of us were completely wrong all along and that Babel is in fact the dog's bollox. Naturally, I get curious and check the stats out to see. As sure as the sun rises in the east each morning, though, you've mucked something up. Whether it's the number of games he's started, the number of times he's played up top, the number of rap clips he has on youtube or what have you, it's usually some very basic detail that you've misquoted, misremembered or misapprehended. As it happens, it's usually the detail that forms the foundation for your whole argument. But the best part usually comes when I point such flaws out because that's when you--the guy who started in with the Babel stats to begin with--throw a little tantrum about the fallacy of stats and that we should all just use our eyes and recognize that Babel's the business. Not long after comes the inevitable posturing about knowing more about football than me...which could well be true but, feck me fella, you've got the weirdest way of demonstrating it.

So, just a little tip LB, if you want to bring stats into the discussion make sure you've got all the details straight first and that they actually support rather than hinder your argument.

Oh and in response to the idea that I've contradicted myself about getting some decent money for Babel despite the fact that he's not good enough....you may not have noticed, mate, but there's a fair few clubs out there at the moment with more money than brains queuing up to pay well over the odds for mediocre players. All I'm suggesting is that we might knock up one of those youtube clips of Babel's undoubted but FAR too fleeting moments of quality and shoot them an email link. Surely we could dupe Man City or Spurs into making a tasty bid?

(Anyway, back on to the topic of Dirk. A lovely lad, works hard, honest professional yada yada yada but we really could do with someone just a bit better if we have aspirations of winning a title. That someone, it should go without saying, is not Ryan Babel, IMO.)

by **GYBS** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:28 pm

cant argue with that post . and agree about kuyt - if we could get someone better than him then great - but that someone is not at the club at present so unfortunatly for the anti kuyt brigade they will have to put up with kuyt playing his heart out for the club .

by **DanAn** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:33 pm

Bad Bob wrote:Oh and in response to the idea that I've contradicted myself about getting some decent money for Babel despite the fact that he's not good enough....you may not have noticed, mate, but there's a fair few clubs out there at the moment with more money than brains queuing up to pay well over the odds for mediocre players. All I'm suggesting is that we might knock up one of those youtube clips of Babel's undoubted but FAR too fleeting moments of quality and shoot them an email link. Surely we could dupe Man City or Spurs into making a tasty bid?

(Anyway, back on to the topic of Dirk. A lovely lad, works hard, honest professional yada yada yada but we really could do with someone just a bit better if we have aspirations of winning a title. That someone, it should go without saying, is not Ryan Babel, IMO.)

I think your being a little hard on both Babel a Kuyt. He's having a rough patch for sure but I think he's still a quality player and your having a slightly knee jerk reaction to a bad year. Not everyone can cut it at liverpool. I think a team like Juventus will take a punt on him for around 12m and at that price I don't think it's a case of duping them.

Regarding Kuyt in a perfect world, sure we'd have someone better but I think we have bigger problems. I'd rather Rafa foucs on fullbacks, a left winger and getting a striker to perform. Kuyt although not a star is genrally reliable and far from our biggest problem.

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:42 pm

DanAn wrote:Not everyone can cut it at liverpool.

Exactly my point and I'm convinced Babel's one of them. I'm sure he'll rebound to offer something to the next team he plays for. Who knows, someone might get the best out of him and he'll really start looking the part of a footballer? I can't see it happening at Liverpool, though. As for duping other teams, I primarily mean his transfer fee because, based on the form he's shown this year, anyone worth their salt at negotiating would try and get him at a cut-rate price: he's clearly not central to Rafa's plans and his form means we can't value him all that highly in the transfer market.

by **GYBS** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:45 pm

Think Babel could do really well in Italy or Spain . more time on the ball .

by **Zidane** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:48 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
DanAn wrote:Not everyone can cut it at liverpool.

Exactly my point and I'm convinced Babel's one of them. I'm sure he'll rebound to offer something to the next team he plays for. Who knows, someone might get the best out of him and he'll really start looking the part of a footballer? I can't see it happening at Liverpool, though. As for duping other teams, I primarily mean his transfer fee because, based on the form he's shown this year, anyone worth their salt at negotiating would try and get him at a cut-rate price: he's clearly not central to Rafa's plans and his form means we can't value him all that highly in the transfer market.

I'm not convinced it's Liverpool that they can't cut it with, it is more like Rafa. I think a lot of players struggle under him at first then slowly adjust or they just can't handle it and say f this. Pennant and Babel are two examples, I think Pennant can still do well but he doesn't give a sht here because he probably doesn't like Rafa's managing style. Under another manager I think both would have done better.

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:24 pm

Zidane wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
DanAn wrote:Not everyone can cut it at liverpool.

Exactly my point and I'm convinced Babel's one of them. I'm sure he'll rebound to offer something to the next team he plays for. Who knows, someone might get the best out of him and he'll really start looking the part of a footballer? I can't see it happening at Liverpool, though. As for duping other teams, I primarily mean his transfer fee because, based on the form he's shown this year, anyone worth their salt at negotiating would try and get him at a cut-rate price: he's clearly not central to Rafa's plans and his form means we can't value him all that highly in the transfer market.

I'm not convinced it's Liverpool that they can't cut it with, it is more like Rafa. I think a lot of players struggle under him at first then slowly adjust or they just can't handle it and say f this. Pennant and Babel are two examples, I think Pennant can still do well but he doesn't give a sht here because he probably doesn't like Rafa's managing style. Under another manager I think both would have done better.

I agree that both players would have perhaps benefited more from 'an arm around the shoulder' type of manager but I don't think either would have become world beaters in Rafa's absence because, IMO, both lack the 'succeed at all costs' mentality that top players have. Having pace, a powerful shot, skill on the ball etc. counts for little if it's not properly allied with a winner's attitude and the mentality to always hone your natural gifts.

by **Madmax** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:28 pm

I have to admit kuyt does work hard and has a great rate at that but the guy is fairly shyte in my oppinion and cant even score if the goals were as big as the arctic ocean. But as we did not bother in the summer to sort out our right side mid position we are stuck with kuyt there. He does a decent job, nothing special. Still we need a replacement.
As for babel the guy looks like a skillful player full of great potential. I have to admit he does need more games but since i have been watching him i am not truly convinced. The guy looks lazy, doesnt want to get in a match. With kuyt atleast he runs like a dog unleashed to get his bone but with babel he seems like his not bothered. Sometimes i think to myslef i wonder what goes on in his head during games. :lookaround

by **bigmick** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:02 pm

Just to clarify where I stand since I've been quoted a few times. I don't think Ryan Babel is a right midfielder in any way shape or form. I think he is slightly better down the left, but that could be that he got a sustained run there last season.

The reason he did it seems was that after four years of meticulous planning, considering the tiniest of "details", we suddenly realised that we didn't have anybody else who could play there. Whether there was a "feck me we haven't got a left midfielder!" moment I guess we will never know, but Babel took advantage of the situation to make the position his own. In doing so he managed to kepp Yossi Benayoun (who of course isn't a left midfielder either) out of the team.

Now we've actually bought a left midfielder (definition-bloke who predominantly uses his left foot, who knows how to play left midfield) Babel's opportunities have been limited. Unless the said bloke gets injured and we once again have a "feck me we haven't got a left midfielder" moment, he isn't going to get many chances there. Obviously if Riera does get injured, he's in. That is unless he is doubly unlucky and the injury coincides with one of Aurelio's "windows", that is to say the three or four one month periods per season that he's fit. If one of those does come up, then I'd prefer the Brazillian (but maybe that's just me, Arf Arf

). Anyway, I digress.

Now I would have been all for giving Babel a go up front at some point during the last two seasons, just to see whether we have fully spunked our 11 million quid or not. I think you can take it as a certainty that should anybody buy him, they won't play him either left or right wing, they'll play him up top. There is a chance that he'll be a really good player. How big a chance? Well less chance than that bloke who is about 17 who plays up front for Barcelona has of being a top player, but more than Egg Nog I should think. Whatever anyway, I'd have given him a shot at some point over the last two seasons. By "a shot" I mean three or four games in a row. I know we'd have been running the risk of rendering him a physical wreck by putting such a workload on his young shoulders, but he strikes me as the sort of bloke who could probably run a round a bit without too much bother.

As it is, now definately isn't the time to be giving him a try given that we are in the midst of a title challenge. If we keep on playing like we are for two or three more weeks, we might be in a situation then when it's the ideal moment to give players like him a try (footballs funny like that) but until then he'll have to wait.

As for Kuyt, as a right midfielder in a 4-4-2 he is absolutely awful. By awful, I mean terrible, woeful, useless, chronic. As a right midfielder in a 4-5-1, as long as Gerrard and Alonso are there to provide creativity and quality, he does a job. He is the best at the club (with the obvious exception of the captain) as a right midfielder in a 4-5-1. If we play 4-4-2, then I just don't know.

The next time we go to play 4-4-2 we might get another "feck me we haven't got a ..." moment as regards right midfielders, we'll see. We haven't got one apart from Gerrard who is anywhere near the quality required for a 4-4-2, so coming back to Babel it looks like he ain't gonna get many starts short term as he isn't going to replace Torres as the 1.

Coming back to Kuyt briefly, I also think his success depends on having a proper right full back behind him. He needs someone who can compensate for his shortcomings with perceptive running, link play and overlaps. We've got a reasonable one ourselves in Arbeloa. Unfortunately it's been no surprise that as Arbeloa is unavailable, Kuyt's form has dipped. Maybe if we had another right fullback to replace Arbeloa, the effect wouldn't have been so dramatic. Unfortunately though, we haven't. Another "feck me we haven't got a ......" moment. You can't beat this meticulous planning lark.

by **LegBarnes** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:01 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:Bob I know you got problem with me due to every post I make you pop up to blow some hot air on it , is it because like the player babel or is it just I know a little more about football.

Nah, mate, I've got no problems with you whatsoever. You make me laugh, is all. Every once in a while you come bounding in here with some new statistic 'proving' that most of us were completely wrong all along and that Babel is in fact the dog's bollox. Naturally, I get curious and check the stats out to see. As sure as the sun rises in the east each morning, though, you've mucked something up. Whether it's the number of games he's started, the number of times he's played up top, the number of rap clips he has on youtube or what have you, it's usually some very basic detail that you've misquoted, misremembered or misapprehended. As it happens, it's usually the detail that forms the foundation for your whole argument. But the best part usually comes when I point such flaws out because that's when you--the guy who started in with the Babel stats to begin with--throw a little tantrum about the fallacy of stats and that we should all just use our eyes and recognize that Babel's the business. Not long after comes the inevitable posturing about knowing more about football than me...which could well be true but, feck me fella, you've got the weirdest way of demonstrating it.

So, just a little tip LB, if you want to bring stats into the discussion make sure you've got all the details straight first and that they actually support rather than hinder your argument.

Oh and in response to the idea that I've contradicted myself about getting some decent money for Babel despite the fact that he's not good enough....you may not have noticed, mate, but there's a fair few clubs out there at the moment with more money than brains queuing up to pay well over the odds for mediocre players. All I'm suggesting is that we might knock up one of those youtube clips of Babel's undoubted but FAR too fleeting moments of quality and shoot them an email link. Surely we could dupe Man City or Spurs into making a tasty bid?

(Anyway, back on to the topic of Dirk. A lovely lad, works hard, honest professional yada yada yada but we really could do with someone just a bit better if we have aspirations of winning a title. That someone, it should go without saying, is not Ryan Babel, IMO.)

well i got those stats of a site so don't shoot the messenger like. :laugh:

But stats don't really show footballing knowlage there just there to try and show what someone has been doing when they played(also a number of others things).

I was only using them in this case to show that maybe alot fo you are a little harsh with him.

Don't get me wrong I to feel when babel is not in the mood he looks dreadful no one can say different.

But you can't question when he is in the mood he can turn it on and be very effective.

Now isn't it the managers job to motivate the players and get them in the mood ?

I rest my case.

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:52 pm

LegBarnes wrote:Now isn't it the managers job to motivate the players and get them in the mood ?

I rest my case.

You cannot be serious? Do you think Torres or Gerrard or Carra or Reina or Alonso or Masch rely on Rafa to get them "in the mood"? If a professional football player cannot motivate himself to play for one of the best clubs in world football he's got no business playing the sport. :no

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