Liverpool FC Forum

by **tonyeh** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:43 pm

Owzat wrote:
burjennio wrote:tell you what if you single out kuyt for his performance against stoke you are totally scapegoating him, considering the 2 front men where absolutely shocking, xabi alonso will never get more time on the ball and couldnt make one chance creating pass and S gerrard hit every single row of the kop end with his shooting. for god sake hes doin a job on the right of midfield and FWIW, he would have buried both of keanes chances if hed been in the strikers position cause hed have blasted them, not tried to be cute with a side foot finish. some of you lot get right on my t1ts with your unashamed hatred of the dutchman

Well said. This witch hunt of Kuyt is past a joke, Keane does next to nothing and doesn't get half the flak. In fact he ran around chasing the ball "WORKING HARD" against the mancs, like Kuyt does, and gets more praise for that than Kuyt does for getting an assist or goal.

True, singling out Kuyt for criticism, when the whole team were bloody awful is unfair.

However, I have to be honest, he attempts on goal on Saturday were absolutely embarassing, especially his last go.

Keane may have gone missing from most of the game and his only real shot was tame, but was at least it was on target.

Torres just whizzed past the post and was, IMO, a little unlucky.

Out of everyone on the current Liverpool side, there is NO-ONE that makes me cringe and squirm as Dirk Kuyt when he has the ball.

I don't want to damn the lad, but as I said I have to be honest about him.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:49 pm

tonyeh wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
Effes wrote:Surely Babel is worth trying out on the right, especially at Everton where
they were cack at defending down their left side against Liege.

A lot of people are asking this question, mate, and I think it's worth a look too (perhaps tomorrow night). The thing is, I can't remember Rafa ever playing him over there since he's been with us. I can't understand why a naturally right-footed player has only played down the left (with a few cameos up top) for us. The only explanation I can think of is that he's so pants at crossing the ball, even with his strong foot, that Rafa prefers him to line up left so that he can cut infield and shoot with his right more effectively.

I've been thinking this too. Rafa must surely have tried him (and others) out on that weak right spot during training.

Perhaps he just didn't shine, or maybe you're correct and Rafa believes that the odd run and a crack at goal is what he wants Babel for.

The signing of Riera has left Babel in a bit of a 5th wheel situation though. I think taking Riera off and putting Babel on last weekend was absolute madness and I don't want that repeated.

I still believe Rafa should play Pennant on the right for a few games. He is a RWM after all and I think it's odd, to say the least that he never gets a game.

In my book there's not much to chose between Pennant and Kuyt (Kuyt puts more work in an dI reckon he's a better personality all round), but at least that area is Pennant's ground. There has to be something said for that.

The best mid we have to offer, I think, is

Riera Masch Gerrard Pennant/Babel

I think the problem Pennant has, is once a player is seen as surplus to requirements by Rafa, they don't seem to get much of a chance to prove him wrong. (Alonso being the exception to the rule).

I did notice after the game against the mancs last week that Rafa praised Mascherano in an interview, but never mentioned Alonso. Maybe he knew that Gerrard was praising Alonso, or maybe there is still a little problem with Alonso?

by **Fo Dne** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:21 pm

Its not singling out Kuyt at all.

Its being realistic, again the amount of moves that broke down through him was an embarresment. Its becoming a joke, he's not upto it, especially when played there. The reason supporters are annoyed and making him "a scapegoat" as the moron's like to say its because its not once in a while, its every week and its never a suprise. Everytime we lose, he's the worst player and everything breaks down through him. When we win everything still breaks down through him...

Are people really that stupid they can't see that?

Do you have any idea as a player how frustrating it is playing with a player that you know, everytime he has the ball will lose it or play the wrong pass?

It destroys you're confidence and concentration and stops you yourself getting any sort of rhythm. Its not even like he just picks the wrong pass, most of the time he actually loses the ball completely.

by **banana** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:58 pm

Fo Dne wrote:Its not singling out Kuyt at all.

Its being realistic, again the amount of moves that broke down through him was an embarresment. Its becoming a joke, he's not upto it, especially when played there. The reason supporters are annoyed and making him "a scapegoat" as the moron's like to say its because its not once in a while, its every week and its never a suprise. Everytime we lose, he's the worst player and everything breaks down through him. When we win everything still breaks down through him...

Are people really that stupid they can't see that?

Do you have any idea as a player how frustrating it is playing with a player that you know, everytime he has the ball will lose it or play the wrong pass?

It destroys you're confidence and concentration and stops you yourself getting any sort of rhythm. Its not even like he just picks the wrong pass, most of the time he actually loses the ball completely.

And also Stu. If he was a good player this debate would never have happened.

I can't see a thread named: Mascherano, peace everyone

or

Torres, peace everyone.

Kuyt is awful. For me it looks like we could be facing a VERY VERY VERY difficult time qualifying for Champions league next year. I think Man City will only improve and come the january transfer window thay will have 5 new star players. And then there is Chelsea, Man U and Arsenal.

I can't see us going anywhere with Kuyt and Keane in our team.

by **burjennio** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:37 am

Fo Dne Posted on Sep. 22 2008,19:21
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Its not singling out Kuyt at all.

Its being realistic, again the amount of moves that broke down through him was an embarresment. Its becoming a joke, he's not upto it, especially when played there. The reason supporters are annoyed and making him "a scapegoat" as the moron's like to say its because its not once in a while, its every week and its never a suprise. Everytime we lose, he's the worst player and everything breaks down through him. When we win everything still breaks down through him...

Are people really that stupid they can't see that?

Do you have any idea as a player how frustrating it is playing with a player that you know, everytime he has the ball will lose it or play the wrong pass?

It destroys you're confidence and concentration and stops you yourself getting any sort of rhythm. Its not even like he just picks the wrong pass, most of the time he actually loses the ball completely.

That is totally untrue, every time he has the ball he will lose it? Il agree that he should not be playin right mid in a 442 but come on, if the players thought he was as bad as some of you they would show it (think Gerrards reactions to Traore or Voronin whenever they fecked up) the guys a DUTCH INTERNATIONAL ffs, so clearly you are in the minority in your opinions

by **heimdall** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:29 am

burjennio wrote:
Fo Dne Posted on Sep. 22 2008,19:21
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Its not singling out Kuyt at all.

Its being realistic, again the amount of moves that broke down through him was an embarresment. Its becoming a joke, he's not upto it, especially when played there. The reason supporters are annoyed and making him "a scapegoat" as the moron's like to say its because its not once in a while, its every week and its never a suprise. Everytime we lose, he's the worst player and everything breaks down through him. When we win everything still breaks down through him...

Are people really that stupid they can't see that?

Do you have any idea as a player how frustrating it is playing with a player that you know, everytime he has the ball will lose it or play the wrong pass?

It destroys you're confidence and concentration and stops you yourself getting any sort of rhythm. Its not even like he just picks the wrong pass, most of the time he actually loses the ball completely.

That is totally untrue, every time he has the ball he will lose it? Il agree that he should not be playin right mid in a 442 but come on, if the players thought he was as bad as some of you they would show it (think Gerrards reactions to Traore or Voronin whenever they fecked up) the guys a DUTCH INTERNATIONAL ffs, so clearly you are in the minority in your opinions

Yes well judging by your sig you are clearly completely unbiased on this matter aren't you, tell me what you like best about Kuyt then, is it his pin point passes, imaginative and creative playing style or his incredible shots at goal?? :no

by **puroresu** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:16 pm

Does Kuyt need to even start v stoke. I would of preferred to see Reira and Babel out wide

by **Ace Ventura** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:34 pm

puroresu wrote:Does Kuyt need to even start v stoke. I would of preferred to see Reira and Babel out wide

This is also my problem at the moment.
Since his first season - when he did ok.
He struggled as a centre forward of 2 in a 4-4-2 and Rafa persisted with him, knocking every last bit of confidence out of him. He then changed to the formation in the last third of last season with Kuyt wide of a three man attack and he played well.
Not oustanding put well enough to justify his inclusion not forgetting his vital goals in the champions league.
But this season he has played him wide right in 4-4-2, that is clearly never going to work unless you just want him to work hard and try and stop the opposing full back play.
To play him there at home to Stoke when we know we will have all the ball and need someone with pace, craft and guile is bemusing and worrying.
We should of played either Babel, Pennant or El Zahr who had played well in midweek for the reserves.
All are not ideal but would have stretched the opposition far far more.
Its not fair on Kuyt to play him wide right, its making him look even worse and damaging his confidence further.

by **burjennio** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:35 pm

heimdall Posted on Sep. 23 2008,11:29
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote (burjennio @ Sep. 23 2008,10:37)
Quote
Fo Dne Posted on Sep. 22 2008,19:21
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Its not singling out Kuyt at all.

Its being realistic, again the amount of moves that broke down through him was an embarresment. Its becoming a joke, he's not upto it, especially when played there. The reason supporters are annoyed and making him "a scapegoat" as the moron's like to say its because its not once in a while, its every week and its never a suprise. Everytime we lose, he's the worst player and everything breaks down through him. When we win everything still breaks down through him...

Are people really that stupid they can't see that?

Do you have any idea as a player how frustrating it is playing with a player that you know, everytime he has the ball will lose it or play the wrong pass?

It destroys you're confidence and concentration and stops you yourself getting any sort of rhythm. Its not even like he just picks the wrong pass, most of the time he actually loses the ball completely.

That is totally untrue, every time he has the ball he will lose it? Il agree that he should not be playin right mid in a 442 but come on, if the players thought he was as bad as some of you they would show it (think Gerrards reactions to Traore or Voronin whenever they fecked up) the guys a DUTCH INTERNATIONAL ffs, so clearly you are in the minority in your opinions

Yes well judging by your sig you are clearly completely unbiased on this matter aren't you, tell me what you like best about Kuyt then, is it his pin point passes, imaginative and creative playing style or his incredible shots at goal??

biased. OMG im biased for sticking up for and seeing the plus side of a player playing in a LIVERPOOL SHIRT. if you look back thru this thread ive highlighted Kuyts qualities several times, and shot down all the stupid, groundless and at times downright spiteful remarks with cold hard FACTS.

As for my sig, i created it last year when Kuyt was in fact playing BADLY, tongue in cheek, and on as few occasions stated that I thought he wasn't good enough. I however, unlike some admitted when his form drastically improved from February onwards that I had been far to quick to judge a player especially around a time when the club as a whole was in disarray and the man had just lost his father, who he admitted had been the biggest influece on his life. The sig is now a reminder to me and all others that we can all be far to quick to judge and damn, especially on a subject we all overvalue are own opinions on, football.

I'l add this to any previous arguments Ive made about Kuyt. If you are of the opinion that Dirk Kuyt has been LFCs worst player this season, continually damning him and blaming him for dropped points and bad performances then you are definately, definately making a biased remark and a scapegoat because there are currently many performers on that teamsheet that are playing far below the level expected of them, and they ARE playing in their favoured positions.

by **Jimmy the Weasel** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:45 pm

Anyone like to venture a guess as to when Dirk's next league goal might occur?

We're kicking on for a year since his last one I think...

by **JamCar05** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:53 pm

burjennio wrote:
heimdall Posted on Sep. 23 2008,11:29
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote (burjennio @ Sep. 23 2008,10:37)
Quote
Fo Dne Posted on Sep. 22 2008,19:21
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Its not singling out Kuyt at all.

Its being realistic, again the amount of moves that broke down through him was an embarresment. Its becoming a joke, he's not upto it, especially when played there. The reason supporters are annoyed and making him "a scapegoat" as the moron's like to say its because its not once in a while, its every week and its never a suprise. Everytime we lose, he's the worst player and everything breaks down through him. When we win everything still breaks down through him...

Are people really that stupid they can't see that?

Do you have any idea as a player how frustrating it is playing with a player that you know, everytime he has the ball will lose it or play the wrong pass?

It destroys you're confidence and concentration and stops you yourself getting any sort of rhythm. Its not even like he just picks the wrong pass, most of the time he actually loses the ball completely.

That is totally untrue, every time he has the ball he will lose it? Il agree that he should not be playin right mid in a 442 but come on, if the players thought he was as bad as some of you they would show it (think Gerrards reactions to Traore or Voronin whenever they fecked up) the guys a DUTCH INTERNATIONAL ffs, so clearly you are in the minority in your opinions

Yes well judging by your sig you are clearly completely unbiased on this matter aren't you, tell me what you like best about Kuyt then, is it his pin point passes, imaginative and creative playing style or his incredible shots at goal??

biased. OMG im biased for sticking up for and seeing the plus side of a player playing in a LIVERPOOL SHIRT. if you look back thru this thread ive highlighted Kuyts qualities several times, and shot down all the stupid, groundless and at times downright spiteful remarks with cold hard FACTS.

As for my sig, i created it last year when Kuyt was in fact playing BADLY, tongue in cheek, and on as few occasions stated that I thought he wasn't good enough. I however, unlike some admitted when his form drastically improved from February onwards that I had been far to quick to judge a player especially around a time when the club as a whole was in disarray and the man had just lost his father, who he admitted had been the biggest influece on his life. The sig is now a reminder to me and all others that we can all be far to quick to judge and damn, especially on a subject we all overvalue are own opinions on, football.

I'l add this to any previous arguments Ive made about Kuyt. If you are of the opinion that Dirk Kuyt has been LFCs worst player this season, continually damning him and blaming him for dropped points and bad performances then you are definately, definately making a biased remark and a scapegoat because there are currently many performers on that teamsheet that are playing far below the level expected of them, and they ARE playing in their favoured positions.

Well put across Burjennio (especially the last paragraph). I agree Kuyt is taking WAY too much flak everytime something goes wrong. I'm not claiming he's a world beater either though (far from it), but standing up for Kuyt doesn't mean that either (like some Kuyt-haters seem to think). We could DEFINITELY do with a better player on the right, and I too would probably like to see El Zhar or Pennant given the chance once in a while, but Kuyt does infact add something to our team, which he has quite often shown against above average opponents.

by **Owzat** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:23 pm

burjennio wrote:
Fo Dne Posted on Sep. 22 2008,19:21
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Its not singling out Kuyt at all.

Its being realistic, again the amount of moves that broke down through him was an embarresment. Its becoming a joke, he's not upto it, especially when played there. The reason supporters are annoyed and making him "a scapegoat" as the moron's like to say its because its not once in a while, its every week and its never a suprise. Everytime we lose, he's the worst player and everything breaks down through him. When we win everything still breaks down through him...

Are people really that stupid they can't see that?

Do you have any idea as a player how frustrating it is playing with a player that you know, everytime he has the ball will lose it or play the wrong pass?

It destroys you're confidence and concentration and stops you yourself getting any sort of rhythm. Its not even like he just picks the wrong pass, most of the time he actually loses the ball completely.

That is totally untrue, every time he has the ball he will lose it? Il agree that he should not be playin right mid in a 442 but come on, if the players thought he was as bad as some of you they would show it (think Gerrards reactions to Traore or Voronin whenever they fecked up) the guys a DUTCH INTERNATIONAL ffs, so clearly you are in the minority in your opinions

It is singling Kuyt out, no two ways about it. He hardly gets any praise from certain members, a sure sign that they're just waiting for the team to do badly and blame him. He isn't the worst player on the pitch most of the time, especially not when Keane is on the pitch doing nothing. The only goal Torres has scored this season was with Keane taken off, take those minutes (70 I believe) Kuyt scores the crucial goal in the Champions League qualifier, sets up the winner against the mancs and apparently "does nothing". If only some of the other players contributed the same "nothing" then maybe Liverpool wouldn't look so bad and Kuyt get the blame.

Fo Dne - are you so stupid as to believe what you said? Absolute nonsense from start to finish. I have to seriously doubt you watch much of Liverpool basing comments as sweepingly as that, not to mention you must think Rafa is stupid if Kuyt is as bad as you CLAIM and yet Rafa picks him. How about the continued presence of Keane, his 'efforts' on goal have been embarrassing and had Kuyt had his shot on Saturday then we'd never hear the end of it. But because we paid £20.3m he's getting the Crouch special treatment, people willing him on and to score, giving him credit where none is due and talking out of their backsides.

I admire Kuyt's work and defend him mainly because the :censored:

aimed at him from quarters of this forum is unjustified. He should score more, do better and is as blameworthy as others in some games. But to suggest he is the worst player on the pitch every game lacks credibility, to such an extent the Kuyt bashers seriously lack any full-stop. Kuyt does better than any option on the right bar maybe Gerrard and the impression I get overall from debates over Gerrard playing there is that we don't want him there. What makes me laugh is Kuyt's efforts aren't the best, but quite often he's getting in more shots than the rest of the team put together so he must be doing something right.

Pah, don't know why I bother. The Kuyt bashers made up their minds long ago and they closed their minds back then too

by **Owzat** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:28 pm

banana wrote:And also Stu. If he was a good player this debate would never have happened.

I can't see a thread named: Mascherano, peace everyone

or

Torres, peace everyone.

I'll go start one shall I, what will it prove? Consensus of opinion never proved anything, most mancs thought they'd beat us as usual. All that a "Dirk Kuyt - Peace Everyone" thread proves is people will slate some players for no good reason as they want him out and refuse to give him a fair chance. It's a growing OPINION and myths spread faster than wildfire. Liverpool did not fail to beat Stoke because Dirk Kuyt had a stinker, there were NINE other outfield players and if they're so much better than Kuyt how come they didn't score either?

by **metalhead** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:37 pm

All I know is, either, drop keane play kuyt and torres strike force, or drop kuyt.

but DO NOT play Kuyt as a right winger, we aren't using his strengths there, and we have better players who can play on the right wing.

by **tonyeh** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:48 pm

burjennio wrote:
heimdall Posted on Sep. 23 2008,11:29
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote (burjennio @ Sep. 23 2008,10:37)
Quote
Fo Dne Posted on Sep. 22 2008,19:21
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Its not singling out Kuyt at all.

Its being realistic, again the amount of moves that broke down through him was an embarresment. Its becoming a joke, he's not upto it, especially when played there. The reason supporters are annoyed and making him "a scapegoat" as the moron's like to say its because its not once in a while, its every week and its never a suprise. Everytime we lose, he's the worst player and everything breaks down through him. When we win everything still breaks down through him...

Are people really that stupid they can't see that?

Do you have any idea as a player how frustrating it is playing with a player that you know, everytime he has the ball will lose it or play the wrong pass?

It destroys you're confidence and concentration and stops you yourself getting any sort of rhythm. Its not even like he just picks the wrong pass, most of the time he actually loses the ball completely.

That is totally untrue, every time he has the ball he will lose it? Il agree that he should not be playin right mid in a 442 but come on, if the players thought he was as bad as some of you they would show it (think Gerrards reactions to Traore or Voronin whenever they fecked up) the guys a DUTCH INTERNATIONAL ffs, so clearly you are in the minority in your opinions

Yes well judging by your sig you are clearly completely unbiased on this matter aren't you, tell me what you like best about Kuyt then, is it his pin point passes, imaginative and creative playing style or his incredible shots at goal??

biased. OMG im biased for sticking up for and seeing the plus side of a player playing in a LIVERPOOL SHIRT. if you look back thru this thread ive highlighted Kuyts qualities several times, and shot down all the stupid, groundless and at times downright spiteful remarks with cold hard FACTS.

As for my sig, i created it last year when Kuyt was in fact playing BADLY, tongue in cheek, and on as few occasions stated that I thought he wasn't good enough. I however, unlike some admitted when his form drastically improved from February onwards that I had been far to quick to judge a player especially around a time when the club as a whole was in disarray and the man had just lost his father, who he admitted had been the biggest influece on his life. The sig is now a reminder to me and all others that we can all be far to quick to judge and damn, especially on a subject we all overvalue are own opinions on, football.

I'l add this to any previous arguments Ive made about Kuyt. If you are of the opinion that Dirk Kuyt has been LFCs worst player this season, continually damning him and blaming him for dropped points and bad performances then you are definately, definately making a biased remark and a scapegoat because there are currently many performers on that teamsheet that are playing far below the level expected of them, and they ARE playing in their favoured positions.

It dosen't matter a damn whether he's in a Liverpool shirt, or an Everton or a Spurs one. Kuyt gets criticised because he draws the criticism from his generally poor play.

Blind support for someone just because they're in the right shade of red is ridiculous and does nothing for a clear argument. I've followed the team since they had Crown Paints written on their jerseys and over the years there have been players that I have disliked and criticised (Like Heskey, Kewell and Diouf) and the colour of their T-shirt didn't come into it...and shouldn't come into it.

If a player, with obvious limitations like Dirk Kuyt, draws a lot of flak, you have to ask why. It would be rare that a player would recieve so much "bad press" from their own team's fans for no reason at all.

Kuyt's work rate is very good (and that's quickly becoming a cliche), but often...far too often...the result of Kuyt's involvement is extremely poor. Does this deserve criticism? Yes...yes it does. The hachet jobs he may get sometimes (not just on here) may be OTT at times, but likewise, the blind flag waving for him just because he currently plays in a Liverpool shirt is just as absurd.

I'll be surprised if any of the people here sticking up for Kuyt (no matter what) will even spit on him when (and if) he's sold next year.

The colour of a players shirt shouldn't matter...it's the quality of the players football that matters.

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