Liverpool FC Forum

bigmick wrote:In truth, the problem is not Dirk Kuyt and his obvious shortcomings. The problem is that apart from the captain, he is still our best option dowqn the right. Despite the lack of pace, the miscontrols, the lack of awareness and vision, he's still our best option. I don't think even his detractors would disagree with that, and ultimately it's not Dirks fault. By and large, when he plays you know what you are going to get, lots of effort, the occasional goal off various parts of his anatomy etc etc.

He doesn't let anyone down, he pretty much plays the same in every game. The challenge is to buy somebody who can contribute more, but slagging off the fella for doing what he does can be done cheaply every game I suppose.

It's a good point, Mick.  Some will no doubt suggest Pennant would be a better option down the right but when was the last time Pennant ever got a killer knee on a ball at the back stick?

LegBarnes wrote:

Bad Bob wrote:

bigmick wrote:In truth, the problem is not Dirk Kuyt and his obvious shortcomings. The problem is that apart from the captain, he is still our best option dowqn the right. Despite the lack of pace, the miscontrols, the lack of awareness and vision, he's still our best option. I don't think even his detractors would disagree with that, and ultimately it's not Dirks fault. By and large, when he plays you know what you are going to get, lots of effort, the occasional goal off various parts of his anatomy etc etc.

He doesn't let anyone down, he pretty much plays the same in every game. The challenge is to buy somebody who can contribute more, but slagging off the fella for doing what he does can be done cheaply every game I suppose.

It's a good point, Mick.  Some will no doubt suggest Pennant would be a better option down the right but when was the last time Pennant ever got a killer knee on a ball at the back stick?

I dunno i remember him hitting one on volly 30 yards out into top corner.

I have a great idea for a tactic with dirk and torres.

Ok play dirk first half and get him to run the 2 center halfs into ground with his dog like work and if he scores bonus.

Bring torres on half time to play vrs a tierd back 4 and run past them with no problems.

LegBarnes wrote:

Bad Bob wrote:

bigmick wrote:In truth, the problem is not Dirk Kuyt and his obvious shortcomings. The problem is that apart from the captain, he is still our best option dowqn the right. Despite the lack of pace, the miscontrols, the lack of awareness and vision, he's still our best option. I don't think even his detractors would disagree with that, and ultimately it's not Dirks fault. By and large, when he plays you know what you are going to get, lots of effort, the occasional goal off various parts of his anatomy etc etc.

He doesn't let anyone down, he pretty much plays the same in every game. The challenge is to buy somebody who can contribute more, but slagging off the fella for doing what he does can be done cheaply every game I suppose.

It's a good point, Mick.  Some will no doubt suggest Pennant would be a better option down the right but when was the last time Pennant ever got a killer knee on a ball at the back stick?

I dunno i remember him hitting one on volly 30 yards out into top corner.

I have a great idea for a tactic with dirk and torres.

Ok play dirk first half and get him to run the 2 center halfs into ground with his dog like work and if he scores bonus.

Bring torres on half time to play vrs a tierd back 4 and run past them with no problems.

tonyeh wrote:I tend not to like some of the stick that Kuyt gets, but I think Liverpool fans have to be honest at the end of the day. Kuyt may get the odd goal (some of which are very important like last night), but he is a liability. The simple fact is, is that Dirk Kuyt gives the ball to the opposition far too often, not just over a few matches...but in a single game. His ball control and passing (even over very short distance) are very weak. Probably the weakest on the side. This means that attacks involving him break down with depressing ease and allows the other team to spark off a counter attack, which if the team are of any quality, could cause some serious problems.

Last night Dirk Kuyt either gave away the ball or passed it back 95% of the time. In fact, I believe Gerrard gave him a bollocking at one point in the 2nd half for giving the ball away so easilly. The commentators on RTE television said "...he was a nightmare."

The bottom line is and will remain that Dirk Kuyt is an average player, who plays with an absolute 100% committment to the team and he is certainly to be commended for that. But his limitations (especially in the position he has been forced to adopt ) are actually painful to watch.

The fact also remains that until a credible alternative can be found for the right wing, Rafa will continue to play him there...warts'n'all, even with Pennant (Liverpool's only real RWM) in the side.

But Kuyt is not Liverpool's only problem, there are many (both players and tactics) and I'll put my opinion out here now and say that...

Liverpool are NOT going to win the Premiership, in fact, based on the past few games, I doubt that they'll finish 4th this year unless something radical is done to change the current playing form.

Liverpool are NOT going to win the Champions League this year either and will be LUCKY to get out of the group, based on the same set of criteria. They came VERY CLOSE to being knocked out of the qualifying stages. In fact, Liege very UNLUCKY not to win the two legs 3-1. Liverpool now have to face PSV, Atletico and Marseille to get through. All teams that I rate as superior to Standard Liege, on paper anyway.

Yes, it's early in the season...and yes Liverpool have won each game (incredibly!), but we must remember, that they've struggled badly against opposition that they should have eased by.

Also, Liverpool could play 38 Prem games and score the winner in the last 15 minutes all the way through the season...but I don't think that will happen. The law of averages are very much against it. In saying that, I'll be feckin delighted if that was to happen.

Some people on here seem to be holding a torch for Dirk Kuyt (and that's fair enough), but I am forced to wonder, would they be of the same opinion if he played for another team?

Some others here are saying that as long as Liverpool have players of the quality of Dirk Kuyt on the team, that they will not win the Premiership...and I am inclined to agree.

To finish, I'd like to say that I do not wish Dirk Kuyt any ill will, in fact, I'd like to see the lad suddenly shine and force his detractors to eat their words. I'd wager they heard me shouting in Kerry last night when he knocked the ball in with his shin. But after a few seasons of watching him in a Liverpool side, I just cannot see that happening...unfortunately.



Tony

banana wrote:Last season was becoming a catastrophe in december/january but then we pulled together an amazing run towards the end of the season.

We will not be able to do that this season.

banana wrote:

tonyeh wrote:I tend not to like some of the stick that Kuyt gets, but I think Liverpool fans have to be honest at the end of the day. Kuyt may get the odd goal (some of which are very important like last night), but he is a liability. The simple fact is, is that Dirk Kuyt gives the ball to the opposition far too often, not just over a few matches...but in a single game. His ball control and passing (even over very short distance) are very weak. Probably the weakest on the side. This means that attacks involving him break down with depressing ease and allows the other team to spark off a counter attack, which if the team are of any quality, could cause some serious problems.

Last night Dirk Kuyt either gave away the ball or passed it back 95% of the time. In fact, I believe Gerrard gave him a bollocking at one point in the 2nd half for giving the ball away so easilly. The commentators on RTE television said "...he was a nightmare."

The bottom line is and will remain that Dirk Kuyt is an average player, who plays with an absolute 100% committment to the team and he is certainly to be commended for that. But his limitations (especially in the position he has been forced to adopt ) are actually painful to watch.

The fact also remains that until a credible alternative can be found for the right wing, Rafa will continue to play him there...warts'n'all, even with Pennant (Liverpool's only real RWM) in the side.

But Kuyt is not Liverpool's only problem, there are many (both players and tactics) and I'll put my opinion out here now and say that...

Liverpool are NOT going to win the Premiership, in fact, based on the past few games, I doubt that they'll finish 4th this year unless something radical is done to change the current playing form.

Liverpool are NOT going to win the Champions League this year either and will be LUCKY to get out of the group, based on the same set of criteria. They came VERY CLOSE to being knocked out of the qualifying stages. In fact, Liege very UNLUCKY not to win the two legs 3-1. Liverpool now have to face PSV, Atletico and Marseille to get through. All teams that I rate as superior to Standard Liege, on paper anyway.

Yes, it's early in the season...and yes Liverpool have won each game (incredibly!), but we must remember, that they've struggled badly against opposition that they should have eased by.

Also, Liverpool could play 38 Prem games and score the winner in the last 15 minutes all the way through the season...but I don't think that will happen. The law of averages are very much against it. In saying that, I'll be feckin delighted if that was to happen.

Some people on here seem to be holding a torch for Dirk Kuyt (and that's fair enough), but I am forced to wonder, would they be of the same opinion if he played for another team?

Some others here are saying that as long as Liverpool have players of the quality of Dirk Kuyt on the team, that they will not win the Premiership...and I am inclined to agree.

To finish, I'd like to say that I do not wish Dirk Kuyt any ill will, in fact, I'd like to see the lad suddenly shine and force his detractors to eat their words. I'd wager they heard me shouting in Kerry last night when he knocked the ball in with his shin. But after a few seasons of watching him in a Liverpool side, I just cannot see that happening...unfortunately.



Tony

good post man, I agree with you.

I also fear we've slipped.



Last season was becoming a catastrophe in december/january but then we pulled together an amazing run towards the end of the season.

We will not be able to do that this season.

I also think that the REAL problem could be the americans not providing money for wages, purchases not to mention a new stadium.

Liverpool may very soon end up mid table with the americans

Simari wrote:All-right.

Kuyt frustrates me as a footballer, since he does tend to touch the ball more than any other player on the team in every game he plays. He never disappears and is always willing to receive the ball, find team-mates and even attempt the pass. In my view, it is because he touches the ball so often and doesn't make as much as we would hope - that he seems to get singled out. I am just as culpible as the rest in doing so.

However, I'd like to make an interesting comparison in terms of his role in the team. Please refrain from comparing the footballing ability bit since this is about the "workhorse".

Wayne Rooney.

Rooney has been "sub-par" and unselfish according to pundits and managers, including Fergie. But he does one thing well for the team in every game he plays. He is a work-horse. You will find him all over the pitch, defending, passing, tackling. He doesn't score as many goals as he is capable of (hasn't done that for the Mancs for 2 years now). He may not turn the ball over as much as Kuyt, but the work-horse role he plays is very, very important for the Mancs.

Kuyt does that for us.

While it is frustrating watching him play, I'd be surprised if we could find someone to easily replace him. Gutierrez for the Toons  appears to be another player of the same mould. You need players like this in the team. Their engine helps the team continue to tick especially during bad spells.

While this won't stop me from commenting on my frustrations seeing him lose the ball so often during games - Kuyt, more than anyone on the team shows that certain hunger for the football that I wish a number of our current stars could pick up on.

Bamaga man wrote:

Also, for the "our strikers don't thrive with crosses" -- I cannot remember the exact words. Even if that's true, having that option will make us more difficult to defend, will allow Gerrard have more space, and will allow more Alonso shots from range. It's always handy to have a player than can reach.

I brought that up in the match thread, the "thing about crosses" as I've read Micks and Stu's post in the past completey rule out the idea of having wide players who can whip in some decent crosses. Because merely our stikers dont thrive on them. Thats IMO, stikers albeit Tony Cascarino or Fernando Torres need service, whether it be from the wings, through the middle of the park its needed. No, Nando and keane may not be the most prolific stirkers in world when it comes to heading, kneeing are ankleing a ball in from a cross. But just because their not the best and "thrive" from crosses, does that mean we completely disreguard a decent crosser of the ball ? Of course it doesnt ! And the point I was making from that game was that cross that Babel whipped in was the only decent cross we got in from the by-line alnight. Stu responded to the defender not doing his job properly, but hang on a minute, thats what happens 50% of the time when a striker or midfielder scores from a cross, the defender lapses in his duties and a goal is scored. The main point though is, we'd never know how threatening we are from crosses unless we knocked them in the box, so to simply disreguard a player who is able to not only "run rings" around a full back and score, but to get in some crosses from the wing is pretty naive IMHO.

Simari wrote:

peewee wrote:

Simari wrote:All-right.

Kuyt frustrates me as a footballer, since he does tend to touch the ball more than any other player on the team in every game he plays. He never disappears and is always willing to receive the ball, find team-mates and even attempt the pass. In my view, it is because he touches the ball so often and doesn't make as much as we would hope - that he seems to get singled out. I am just as culpible as the rest in doing so.

However, I'd like to make an interesting comparison in terms of his role in the team. Please refrain from comparing the footballing ability bit since this is about the "workhorse".

Wayne Rooney.

Rooney has been "sub-par" and unselfish according to pundits and managers, including Fergie. But he does one thing well for the team in every game he plays. He is a work-horse. You will find him all over the pitch, defending, passing, tackling. He doesn't score as many goals as he is capable of (hasn't done that for the Mancs for 2 years now). He may not turn the ball over as much as Kuyt, but the work-horse role he plays is very, very important for the Mancs.

Kuyt does that for us.

While it is frustrating watching him play, I'd be surprised if we could find someone to easily replace him. Gutierrez for the Toons  appears to be another player of the same mould. You need players like this in the team. Their engine helps the team continue to tick especially during bad spells.

While this won't stop me from commenting on my frustrations seeing him lose the ball so often during games - Kuyt, more than anyone on the team shows that certain hunger for the football that I wish a number of our current stars could pick up on.

i understand your point mate and i could go with the workhorse in a different position, but forgive me if i am wrong but right winger is not supposed to be a workhorse, we have that in mash in the centre, he is a workhorse who can also play, on the right we need some flair, not a guy who only brings hard work to the table

It isn't about the position of a right winger. Rooney plays a roaming attacking role, yet you will find him in defense, midfield all throughout the game - looking for the ball, trying to win it back. Masch will do that for us on defense - but not in the final third. Rooney does that for Mancs and Kuyt does that for us. Gutierrez (in the few games he's played for the Toons,has done that at both ends). Deco has offered Chelsea something very different - he may playing on the right side (as per starting formation), but he is involved in building up plays from the defense in the final third.

These types of players are extremely hard to come by.

I do wish that Kuyt had either one of these qualities - (a) More pace or (b) more skill. Not enough of either one is where I see the missing bit at.  With more pace, our attacks down the right wouldn't stall since the entire opposition would be well-in defending by the time Kuyt arrives. With more skill, he could maybe create a few more chances for the rest of our attacking formation. That said, he does score important goals for us.

But, if he were to go - I'd be hard-pressed to find a replacement that does the donkey work. Masch would have all of the responsibility - and that might be a bit too much, if we continue to play an inconsistent Yossi on either wing (just an example here).

You heard what Harry Redknapp said about Mancs when they played last week - every player on that team has an incredible work ethic on both offense and defense. The same holds true for Chelsea. Granted you can always make the exception for the super-star goalscorers (Drogba, Ronaldo and Torres for us). I'd absolutely love a right-sided midfielder. However, it's got to be someone who can cover defense on the right side also. All flair is a hit-miss thing. Flair-based wide players, in football as we know it these days , rarely perform at the rarified levels for an entire season. In fact, if they do perform for 50% of the games they play in - that would be a bonus.

Simari wrote:

peewee wrote:

Simari wrote:All-right.

Kuyt frustrates me as a footballer, since he does tend to touch the ball more than any other player on the team in every game he plays. He never disappears and is always willing to receive the ball, find team-mates and even attempt the pass. In my view, it is because he touches the ball so often and doesn't make as much as we would hope - that he seems to get singled out. I am just as culpible as the rest in doing so.

However, I'd like to make an interesting comparison in terms of his role in the team. Please refrain from comparing the footballing ability bit since this is about the "workhorse".

Wayne Rooney.

Rooney has been "sub-par" and unselfish according to pundits and managers, including Fergie. But he does one thing well for the team in every game he plays. He is a work-horse. You will find him all over the pitch, defending, passing, tackling. He doesn't score as many goals as he is capable of (hasn't done that for the Mancs for 2 years now). He may not turn the ball over as much as Kuyt, but the work-horse role he plays is very, very important for the Mancs.

Kuyt does that for us.

While it is frustrating watching him play, I'd be surprised if we could find someone to easily replace him. Gutierrez for the Toons  appears to be another player of the same mould. You need players like this in the team. Their engine helps the team continue to tick especially during bad spells.

While this won't stop me from commenting on my frustrations seeing him lose the ball so often during games - Kuyt, more than anyone on the team shows that certain hunger for the football that I wish a number of our current stars could pick up on.

i understand your point mate and i could go with the workhorse in a different position, but forgive me if i am wrong but right winger is not supposed to be a workhorse, we have that in mash in the centre, he is a workhorse who can also play, on the right we need some flair, not a guy who only brings hard work to the table

It isn't about the position of a right winger. Rooney plays a roaming attacking role, yet you will find him in defense, midfield all throughout the game - looking for the ball, trying to win it back. Masch will do that for us on defense - but not in the final third. Rooney does that for Mancs and Kuyt does that for us. Gutierrez (in the few games he's played for the Toons,has done that at both ends). Deco has offered Chelsea something very different - he may playing on the right side (as per starting formation), but he is involved in building up plays from the defense in the final third.

These types of players are extremely hard to come by.

I do wish that Kuyt had either one of these qualities - (a) More pace or (b) more skill. Not enough of either one is where I see the missing bit at.  With more pace, our attacks down the right wouldn't stall since the entire opposition would be well-in defending by the time Kuyt arrives. With more skill, he could maybe create a few more chances for the rest of our attacking formation. That said, he does score important goals for us.

But, if he were to go - I'd be hard-pressed to find a replacement that does the donkey work. Masch would have all of the responsibility - and that might be a bit too much, if we continue to play an inconsistent Yossi on either wing (just an example here).

You heard what Harry Redknapp said about Mancs when they played last week - every player on that team has an incredible work ethic on both offense and defense. The same holds true for Chelsea. Granted you can always make the exception for the super-star goalscorers (Drogba, Ronaldo and Torres for us). I'd absolutely love a right-sided midfielder. However, it's got to be someone who can cover defense on the right side also. All flair is a hit-miss thing. Flair-based wide players, in football as we know it these days , rarely perform at the rarified levels for an entire season. In fact, if they do perform for 50% of the games they play in - that would be a bonus.