Liverpool FC Forum

[felixsis]

Arda TURAN will be his hero!!!  Next season

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24zicTWcmGE

[Reg]

Judge Rafa on a five second video ? More bottle ? What the f'uck are you on about ?

Cards on the table, over the years we've ALL (and that includes you) have been baffled and p'issed off with some of Rafa's at times bizarre decisions. Many of us however despite our misgivings have stuck by him.

I'm not judging Rafa on a "five second video". As much as some of us have tried to brush it under the carpet the question of how much some of the players are in "tune" with Rafa's tactics has been a question that for some years now has been raised time and again in this forum.

The sight of Gerrard publicly scratching his head at Rafa's decision to substitute Torres speaks volumes. For me Gerrards head scratching goes far deeper than just a reaction to the actual substitution, imo it's a sign that Gerrard (and probably many others) are (and have been for some time) exasperated with many of Rafa's decisions.

With this in mind, I don't believe that Gerrard or Torres will want to spend the next couple of seasons under Rafa,

disclaimer. I have to evidence to support this belief, just call it a gut feeling .

Woof, 9 months doesnt change a man from what he was last season to an ogre this season.

This forum has been terminally morose for months now because we cant mechanically churn out wins but its pretty par for the couse considering the backroom antics.

I´m not changing my views, the players are under great pressure having to ignore those antics whilst convincing themselves they´re championship contenders and the manager has to put on a mask to convince the lads to play their best.

No manager in the league put operate under the pressure Rafa´s under and have produced better results.

[lakes10]

???

Judge Rafa on a five second video ? More bottle ? What the f'uck are you on about ?

Cards on the table, over the years we've ALL (and that includes you) have been baffled and p'issed off with some of Rafa's at times bizarre decisions. Many of us however despite our misgivings have stuck by him.

I'm not judging Rafa on a "five second video". As much as some of us have tried to brush it under the carpet the question of how much some of the players are in "tune" with Rafa's tactics has been a question that for some years now has been raised time and again in this forum.

The sight of Gerrard publicly scratching his head at Rafa's decision to substitute Torres speaks volumes. For me Gerrards head scratching goes far deeper than just a reaction to the actual substitution, imo it's a sign that Gerrard (and probably many others) are (and have been for some time) exasperated with many of Rafa's decisions.

With this in mind, I don't believe that Gerrard or Torres will want to spend the next couple of seasons under Rafa,

disclaimer. I have to evidence to support this belief, just call it a gut feeling .

Woof, 9 months doesnt change a man from what he was last season to an ogre this season.

This forum has been terminally morose for months now because we cant mechanically churn out wins but its pretty par for the couse considering the backroom antics.

I´m not changing my views, the players are under great pressure having to ignore those antics whilst convincing themselves they´re championship contenders and the manager has to put on a mask to convince the lads to play their best.

No manager in the league put operate under the pressure Rafa´s under and have produced better results.

but in that case (sorry for stepoping in on the post) is it not even more reson that Rafa should be talking with the players, if it was only a few ex players that say he dont talk to the team i would put it dont to them being unhappy with being sold on, but it seems if you talk to any player they will end up saying something like he dont talk to the PLAYERS MUCH.
WITH ALL THATS GOING ON WITH THE OWNERS HE SHOULD BE THERE FOR THE PLAYERS..

HE can not just blame the owners , he has taken backroom stuff and gone in front of the press with it, his contarct and the time he said, about his job was just to workon the next game (or something like that).
if he was trying to sheald the players from stuff like this then he has not dont a very good job.

[Emerald Red]

Sacking Rafa is not the magic solution to solving our clubs problems.

No, its just the first step in our recovery

Recovery from what, S@int. For four years we were the most feared team in Europe under him bar one shocking season. Previous to that we were a joke and not just in Europe either. I'll stick down any amount of money on it that sacking the manager now is not the cure to our ills at the moment. It hasn't been in the past 20 years or so and never will be until this football club sorts it out at a boardroom first, from top filtering to the bottom. This club is a joke in the way it's been run and it's been our downfall for over a decade now, and it's only gotten worse since them two b@stards got a hold of us. It's no coincidence that since we've been lumped with debt and headline scandal over the past few seasons that we are now starting to reap what they've sown. We won't win the league with them two here. Simple as that. Oh, and with Dirk Kuyt playing as a winger 'n' all. For us to win the title we need new owners, better boardroom staff, better scouting system, oh, and a new f*cking stadium or at least an extension onto Anfield. The fact we're STILL in a 42,000+ stadium after dominating Europe and domestically for over two decades or more and being as big and as presitgious as we are is nothing short of a failure of our board on a epic scale and a complete and utter farce. With an extra 20-30k seats, think of how much more revenue that is going towards players, players that have been out of our spending reach for some time. Thinking of the players we've let go over the years and the players we could and should have had makes me sick.

[Ciggy]

Woof, 9 months doesnt change a man from what he was last season to an ogre this season.

I think what Woof means is since Rafa arrived he has made some bizzare decisions from his first season in charge and made one on sunday.  We have forgiven him in the past because he has put things right in the next game, but the facts remain we have won 4 times away from home this season and sunday we really needed them 3 points and as we all know Rafa just loves European games and for that reason alone Torres was hauled off because he was being saved for thursday.

These last few games we have to play to get a CL place well IMO there is no time for bizzare irrational decisions yet he goes and does it again, and I cannot defend him no more.

[account deleted by request]

Sacking Rafa is not the magic solution to solving our clubs problems.

No, its just the first step in our recovery

Recovery from what, S@int. For four years we were the most feared team in Europe under him bar one shocking season. Previous to that we were a joke and not just in Europe either. I'll stick down any amount of money on it that sacking the manager now is not the cure to our ills at the moment. It hasn't been in the past 20 years or so and never will be until this football club sorts it out at a boardroom first, from top filtering to the bottom. This club is a joke in the way it's been run and it's been our downfall for over a decade now, and it's only gotten worse since them two b@stards got a hold of us. It's no coincidence that since we've been lumped with debt and headline scandal over the past few seasons that we are now starting to reap what they've sown. We won't win the league with them two here. Simple as that. Oh, and with Dirk Kuyt playing as a winger 'n' all. For us to win the title we need new owners, better boardroom staff, better scouting system, oh, and a new f*cking stadium or at least an extension onto Anfield. The fact we're STILL in a 42,000+ stadium after dominating Europe and domestically for over two decades or more and being as big and as presitgious as we are is nothing short of a failure of our board on a epic scale and a complete and utter farce. With an extra 20-30k seats, think of how much more revenue that is going towards players, players that have been out of our spending reach for some time. Thinking of the players we've let go over the years and the players we could and should have had makes me sick.

You have to to start somewhere though mate. The owners will only leave when the right offer comes along or they are forced out. We have no idea if the new owners will be better or even WORSE than what we have now. Maybe we should keep H&G as they may turn it around next season 

I don't believe that Rafa did a wonderful job last season, I think there was more luck and circumstance than great manager about it. Similarly I don't believe he has done an awful job this season, I think there is more bad luck and circumstance than bad manager about it.

What I do believe is he makes too many mistakes and unless someone comes in with a couple of hundred million for transfer funds we will see the same decline as we did under Houllier. The players first stop believing in the manager...... then they stop playing for him mate.

We need a new manager , new hope, someone who can inspire the players to play to their potential and make the team perform greater than its individual parts.

Defensive football may work in Europe, but in the prem where you need to be winning not drawing, you need players with more creativity, and for me Rafa sacrifices creativity on the altar of hard work and "doing a job" for the team. 

I don't and have never believed its all about money, too many teams have spent fortunes only to fall short, yes you need good players, but more importantly you need those players on the pitch not sat watching from the stands in must win games.   

I think Rafa has taken us as far as he could, time to give someone else the chance. Then hopefully we can start working on all the other ills at the club.

[lakes10]

I think in all what this year shows is that you need more that 4 good players in your team and you need a manager that can work well with the players he has. get any of that wrong then you have a problem.

even if we had Lionel Messi  up front as a 2nd striker if he is let down by the back 4 you will still find it hard to win games.

[lakes10]

Emerald without talking about the owners can you list me Rafa's good points,
this is not a joke i would like to see what you think ther are.
he is just too hot too cold for me.

[Ciggy]

even if we had Lionel Messi 

Rafa would play him at leftback *runs away* 

[lakes10]

even if we had Lionel Messi 

Rafa would play him at leftback *runs away* 

pmsl 

[7_Kewell]

If Messi played for us i would suspect that Rafa would DROP him for the next 3 matches and play Kuyt instead.

[Scottbot]

It's also interesting how not a single one of you is yet to name a viable suitor that is up to the task of running this rat infested ship; one that will require little to no funds to land the title, or even to usurp the current top four, not to mention the likes of City who will be intent on spending at least another 100 million come the summer.

Emerald it's just as interesting to me how not one of you (hate to use pro/anti terminology) seems to EVER be willing to acknowledge any of the mistakes (see below) Rafa has made over the course of this season. It's like you (and a few others) are happy to gloss over them NO MATTER WHAT. Yesterday's substitution of Torres is a prime example. Depsite the exasperation on the faces of our two best players, despite the fact we drew a game we desperately needed to win and despite the fact it was Torres's replacement (Ngog) who missed three golden chances, I still have to read how 'we played much better once the sub was made', and 'Torres body language was all wrong from the start'.

Forget the owners and the money and the other stuff you would normally shift the debate towards for a moment. I'm not belittling them but I'd love it if you (and Benny, Lando + anyone else who still feels Rafa is the man for the job) would please address the following areas in debate. To be honest I think the failure to even acknowledge Rafa's failings in terms of selection of personnel (based on what he has), tactics on match days, substitutions and perhaps most of all, our depressing style of football this season by some of the posters on this board is as much to blame for the arguments that go on as anything else you could point your finger at.

1/ Rafa's substitutions. Always so late in the game, often he has failed to use them all in matches this season despite the fact we have desperately needed to win them. How many times has he brought on a skill player with 6-7 minutes left in a game we need to win? I mean what's the point? It's nonsensical at times.

2/ Sticking with players who are so clearly struggling for form. Usual suspects Lucas, Insua and Kuyt spring to mind but Ngog played a long stretch this season as an impotent replacement for Torres while Babel sat on the bench chewing his finger nails.

3/ A complete reluctance to try something different. We've plodded on ALL SEASON with the same ideas. The two defensive midfielders, playing Gerrard in the hole despite the fact it only seems to work for him there when TORRES IS PLAYING AHEAD OF HIM. Playing one up front 95% of the time when we are struggling to score goals, unwilling to give a youngster like Pachecho a game when all else seems to be failing.

4/ Injuries - This one does my head in the most. Please comment on the injury problems suffered by our rivals this season. The mancs played a Champions League game earlier this season with no centre-halves (they won the game 3-0), they have lost Vidic and Ferdinand for much pretty much a whole season between them, Hargreaves hasn't played, Rafael has struggled and Owen is lost for the season + Van De Sar has missed chunks. Arsenal have just lost Gallas and Fabregas (who has been in and out all year), Van Persie has missed most of the year, Eduardo has been out, Rosicky has missed time, same goes Almunia and there only fit forward for a few weeks was Arshavin, they have been so desperate Sol Campbell has been playing centre-half! Chelsea have lost Essien for the season, had the African Nations Cup to contend with, Carvallho has missed time, Ashley Cole is out and Joe Cole hasn't been on it all year. TELL ME OUR SITUATION HAS BEEN ANY WORSE THAN ANYBODY ELSE'S. IT HASN'T.

5/ Last point. Aquilani. Need I say anymore.

Scott this is a brilliant post mate, and you are absolutely on the money with your assertion that the refusal of some parties to accept even the glaringly obvious has destroyed the board as a decent way to spend a few minutes. Not only will some of them not accept what is as plain as the nose on their face, but they abuse people while they're denying it.

All your points are salient, but I definately wouldn't hold your breath on getting any answers or any concessions. I sense some frustration in your posts. You'll get used to it are the only words of comfort I can offer  .

It was a very good post but you destroyed it by accusing the people who support Rafa of destroying the board - i think maybe you should take a look in the mirror on the odd occasions and have a little look at yourself and the way you post towards people as a pointer towards why things havent been great on here lately .

Your being as bad as the people your accusing

Oh behave yourself Benny, what are you talking about lad? I don't at any stage of this post 'accuse people who support Rafa of destroying the board'. There seems to be a perception on here the ant's (or whatever you wanna call em) are responsible for this place being miserable, argumentative, inflammatory etc. I only said that the failure to acknowledge/address some of the many problems we have had this season by posters (who are still 100% behind the manager) "is as much to blame for the arguments that go on as anything else you could point your finger at". The point I was making is this failure to acknowledge Rafa's mistakes this season gets other posters (generally those who want the manager out) goats up. Was all I was saying.

As for my behaviour/tone recently? i'm not sure what you're talking about mate. I might call Big Niall a miserable tosspot from time to time (sorry Niall but you're a miserable bugger!) but that aside, I don't know what you're getting at?

All said and done I'd love to hear any comments on the 5 areas i've listed dude.

[bigmick]

I have absolutely no doubts whatsoever that the owners would love to keep Rafa in place. For sheisters such as them, he is the perfect manager. He is almost an identikit fit of what you want running the team if a) you want to deflect some criticism from the fans b) you don't want to spend any money in the transfer market and don't want any criticism off fans (because most don't blame you for not giving Benitez any more to waste) or off the manager (because he doesn't want to lose his hefty contract). Given you aren't going to spend much money, you probably won't win the league and you know with Rafa he'll not waste too much energy in that direction anyhow. Neither will he waste time and effort contesting the domestic cups, you'll be out of those long before fatigue has set in. What you will get though is exposure in Europe from a man who will play the home and away European ties like a master.

You also as I said earlier get to dangle the carrot of potential glory in front of any new buyer, all of which would assume that a change of manager simply must make us inprove. If you support the owners support the manager. A new and volotile opponent for Hicks and Gillette is the absolute last thing they need.

[bigmick]

Scott he's on about me mate not you you daft bugger

[Ben Patrick]

I know what you mean Scott.

It would be interesting for some of the people behind the manager to offer their opinion on the areas you pointed out.