Liverpool FC Forum

[Scottbot]

[quote=Benny The Noon,April

I could go on but I am only wasting my breath. No guarantees mate, but a little bit of hope is better than NONE.

Hence why i think Rafa should be given next season to turn it around . Before this season we were on track - IMO we had a blip and now we need to recover - for me we dont just bin the manager after one poor season - we gotta give him the chance .

Just my opinion off ofcurse[/quote]
But that makes it sound as if the club/team had been making steady progress year on year, culminating in last year's title push. But that is so far from the truth. There's no denying Rafa has been materful in Europe, absolutely fantastic record, one win, two finals, a semi-final, a quarter-final and a last 16 in 5 years. But in the league we've been poor mate, there was progress in year two when we looked a good side but even then we were out of it by January. You call this season a blip, and in Europe I agree completely. But in the league? While this season is worse in that it's only the 2nd time we've struggled to make the Champions League places. However, it is the 5th time in 6 seasons that we have been completely out of the title race by January. And that's not my opinion, it's a fact, and there's no getting away from it, at least not for me. So in that respect, our league form this season is actually closer to the norm than it is to be being a blip.

[Scottbot]

Scott he's on about me mate not you you daft bugger

You sure!? Sure it was me! 

[Emerald Red]

Sacking Rafa is not the magic solution to solving our clubs problems.

No, its just the first step in our recovery

Recovery from what, S@int. For four years we were the most feared team in Europe under him bar one shocking season. Previous to that we were a joke and not just in Europe either. I'll stick down any amount of money on it that sacking the manager now is not the cure to our ills at the moment. It hasn't been in the past 20 years or so and never will be until this football club sorts it out at a boardroom first, from top filtering to the bottom. This club is a joke in the way it's been run and it's been our downfall for over a decade now, and it's only gotten worse since them two b@stards got a hold of us. It's no coincidence that since we've been lumped with debt and headline scandal over the past few seasons that we are now starting to reap what they've sown. We won't win the league with them two here. Simple as that. Oh, and with Dirk Kuyt playing as a winger 'n' all. For us to win the title we need new owners, better boardroom staff, better scouting system, oh, and a new f*cking stadium or at least an extension onto Anfield. The fact we're STILL in a 42,000+ stadium after dominating Europe and domestically for over two decades or more and being as big and as presitgious as we are is nothing short of a failure of our board on a epic scale and a complete and utter farce. With an extra 20-30k seats, think of how much more revenue that is going towards players, players that have been out of our spending reach for some time. Thinking of the players we've let go over the years and the players we could and should have had makes me sick.

You have to to start somewhere though mate. The owners will only leave when the right offer comes along or they are forced out. We have no idea if the new owners will be better or even WORSE than what we have now. Maybe we should keep H&G as they may turn it around next season 

I don't believe that Rafa did a wonderful job last season, I think there was more luck and circumstance than great manager about it. Similarly I don't believe he has done an awful job this season, I think there is more bad luck and circumstance than bad manager about it.

What I do believe is he makes too many mistakes and unless someone comes in with a couple of hundred million for transfer funds we will see the same decline as we did under Houllier. The players first stop believing in the manager...... then they stop playing for him mate.

We need a new manager , new hope, someone who can inspire the players to play to their potential and make the team perform greater than its individual parts.

Defensive football may work in Europe, but in the prem where you need to be winning not drawing, you need players with more creativity, and for me Rafa sacrifices creativity on the altar of hard work and "doing a job" for the team. 

I don't and have never believed its all about money, too many teams have spent fortunes only to fall short, yes you need good players, but more importantly you need those players on the pitch not sat watching from the stands in must win games.   

I think Rafa has taken us as far as he could, time to give someone else the chance. Then hopefully we can start working on all the other ills at the club.

I can respect most of your post, S@int, as most of it makes sense without being inflammatory to the contrary. I suppose we all just have to wait and see what the summer yeilds, as I think we could all be reading some surprising revelations come the next two months or so. If a new manager comes to us and isn't given a penny for transfers, then I think we can expect another dismal season or possibly worse. For me, attention will be on what the Yank do and say in the summer rather than our manager, and if Rafa does end up staying (which I think he will) then his activity in the transfer market should give a indication of whether or not we're in for another rocky season with him.

[LFC2007]

You also as I said earlier get to dangle the carrot of potential glory in front of any new buyer, all of which would assume that a change of manager simply must make us inprove. If you support the owners support the manager.

By that reasoning, if Rafa is making the club a more attractive proposition for any future buyers out there, then that would hasten the departure of the current owners. Therefore, if you support Rafa you aren't supporting the owners.

[Emerald Red]

I have absolutely no doubts whatsoever that the owners would love to keep Rafa in place. For sheisters such as them, he is the perfect manager. He is almost an identikit fit of what you want running the team if a) you want to deflect some criticism from the fans b) you don't want to spend any money in the transfer market and don't want any criticism off fans (because most don't blame you for not giving Benitez any more to waste) or off the manager (because he doesn't want to lose his hefty contract). Given you aren't going to spend much money, you probably won't win the league and you know with Rafa he'll not waste too much energy in that direction anyhow. Neither will he waste time and effort contesting the domestic cups, you'll be out of those long before fatigue has set in. What you will get though is exposure in Europe from a man who will play the home and away European ties like a master.

You also as I said earlier get to dangle the carrot of potential glory in front of any new buyer, all of which would assume that a change of manager simply must make us inprove. If you support the owners support the manager. A new and volotile opponent for Hicks and Gillette is the absolute last thing they need.

See, all of this would make a modicum of sense but for one glaring contradiction in that the owners wanted to oust Rafa for a certain German who loved to dive at the ground and possibly at their very feet, whereas Rafa cast taunts at them in media and practically exposed the snakes in their bed of lies in which they'd settled very cozily into since conning their way in.

[Scottbot]

I have absolutely no doubts whatsoever that the owners would love to keep Rafa in place.

I disagree mate. I personally think they'd love to move him on the summer but it seems they are hamstrung by the big contract they gave him last summer. Gillette in particular has had a few choice comments re: Rafa to the press over the last couple of years. Also, I think they are (would be) fearful of doing such a thing because of the potential backlash from the fans. Much of the anti-Hicks/Gillette feeling manifested itself in support for Rafa when it all kicked off 18 months ago (and rightly so) and I don't think they'd risk it again. I imagine they would wait to see fans booing in the stadium and making their feelings known that way before they felt confident enough to act. Of course that isn't the Liverpool way (something i'll always be proud of).

It's a complete clusterf..u...c...k isn't it? going into next season, It seems they can't afford to sack him and they can't afford to back him. Even if they can free up some transfer money from somewhere, are they gonna give it to Rafa to spend after the Keane and Aquilani buys? I can't see it. Basicly it looks pretty shi.....t no matter how you look at it   

[bigmick]

You also as I said earlier get to dangle the carrot of potential glory in front of any new buyer, all of which would assume that a change of manager simply must make us inprove. If you support the owners support the manager.

By that reasoning, if Rafa is making the club a more attractive proposition for any buyers our there, then that would hasten the departure of the current owners. Therefore, if you support Rafa you aren't supporting the owners.

No I don't agree mate. By supporting the manager you are aiding and abetting the owners attempts to run the club while putting in the minimum amount of capital. FWIW I think we are stuck with the owners for the forseeable, as I think buyers for a business such as Liverpool are in extreme short supply at the moment, even allowing for the fairly obvious upside a new manager would bring.

The owners get it all ways with Rafa, but that doesn't mean their scheme will work and I don't think it will. Keeping Rafa though will allow them to trundle on, putting the minimum into the club and having a tame manager who won't rock the boat, as well as fans who have unbelieveably low expectations upon him and the team. You've already got some of them describing this season as being a "blip", when last season was the first time in six seasons which we challenged for the title. We are competing with the likes of Everton and Birmingham, and many fans think that given the circumstances its fair enough.

Imagine if we brought a manager in who got us up there and challenging before walking out on the eve of a big match because the owners had gone back on a promise. That's the last thing they need, so they'll be hoping Rafa stays and everything remains tickety boo.

[NANNY RED]

I dont argue with anyone who wants rid ,thats there choice ,there opinion there view and ill respect that , the same way i have my choice, Yep most will think im off me head for still standing by him ,even i think am sometimes but i just cant help it , theres something that tells me inside that he will come good and this season has been a blimp. A big blimp i might add, I admit i was on Geds well before his demise case but i just cant bring myself to do this with Rafa , Maybe it is as Saint has said im letting my heart rule my head ,ive gone over that a thousand times , Balanced the pro an cons argued the whys an whynots , called him allsorts , but the feeling is still there for me that he will turn us around, I cant be any more honest than that, So yous will have to put up with me while he remains,

Oh and ive just got to add this bit in for Michael, please dont tell me that because i still support Rafa i am supporting the owners , NO NO sorry Michael im not having that ,no way

[Kharhaz]

Also, I think they are (would be) fearful of doing such a thing because of the potential backlash from the fans.

I dont think so. I think although a lot of fans are supporting rafa, as for now he is Liverpools manager, I also think many would say yes, time for a change. The booing when Torres went off. Its surprised me how this hasnt been taken into consideration. The booing was directly at the manager, and the reactions of Torres and Gerrard spoke volumes.

No I dont think the rafa leaving would be so much a problem, the big problem could be the replacement.

[bigmick]

Think about it, if you were Hicks and Gillette, who would you like to have as manager? Would you keep Rafa, already on a huge contract with all his mates in the backroom, someone who isn't going to rock the boat and is going to direct all his energies towards success and exposure in Europe? Or would you rather stump up sixteen million quid to get rid of Rafa, possibly have to pay compensation for a new manager, and have to give him transfer funds as well as run the risk of him telling it like it really is?

It's a no brainer. If you are Hicks and Gillette, you get yourself on the Kop and start up the Raffer, raff-eye-elle chants every week. Keeping him saves them sixteen million quid for a start. Having fans who are happy with an unsuccessful manager is a dream scenario for these c...s

[Kharhaz]

Think about it, if you were Hicks and Gillette, who would you like to have as manager? Would you keep Rafa, already on a huge contract with all his mates in the backroom, someone who isn't going to rock the boat and is going to direct all his energies towards success and exposure in Europe? Or would you rather stump up sixteen million quid to get rid of Rafa, possibly have to pay compensation for a new manager, and have to give him transfer funds as well as run the risk of him telling it like it really is?

It's a no brainer. If you are Hicks and Gillette, you get yourself on the Kop and start up the Raffer, raff-eye-elle chants every week. Keeping him saves them sixteen million quid for a start. Having fans who are happy with an unsuccessful manager is a dream scenario for these c...s

In the same breath, lack of success = lack of funds. As long as champions league football was there, a steady income was a nice welcome. Next season thats not going to happen. Is it worth the risk to keep rafa with even less funding to get us back on track next season?

I think there is a serious decision to be made at the end of the season, and most of it will be financial. If rafa is to be paid off will that be taken from the transfer funds? I dont know, I dont think its as black and white though. I can only imagine that discussions are already taking place so come the end of the season decisions can be made swiftly.

[Scottbot]

Think about it, if you were Hicks and Gillette, who would you like to have as manager? Would you keep Rafa, already on a huge contract with all his mates in the backroom, someone who isn't going to rock the boat and is going to direct all his energies towards success and exposure in Europe? Or would you rather stump up sixteen million quid to get rid of Rafa, possibly have to pay compensation for a new manager, and have to give him transfer funds as well as run the risk of him telling it like it really is?

It's a no brainer. If you are Hicks and Gillette, you get yourself on the Kop and start up the Raffer, raff-eye-elle chants every week. Keeping him saves them sixteen million quid for a start. Having fans who are happy with an unsuccessful manager is a dream scenario for these c...s

i've always figure the ONLY way Rafa moves on is if one of Juve, Madrid or Milan (at least two of them will be looking) come calling for a new manager. If the owners gave permission for them to speak with Rafa I think it's unlikely he would stay with such a vote of no-confidence. They won't spend the money to sack, not a chance.

[NANNY RED]

Think about it, if you were Hicks and Gillette, who would you like to have as manager? Would you keep Rafa, already on a huge contract with all his mates in the backroom, someone who isn't going to rock the boat and is going to direct all his energies towards success and exposure in Europe? Or would you rather stump up sixteen million quid to get rid of Rafa, possibly have to pay compensation for a new manager, and have to give him transfer funds as well as run the risk of him telling it like it really is?

It's a no brainer. If you are Hicks and Gillette, you get yourself on the Kop and start up the Raffer, raff-eye-elle chants every week. Keeping him saves them sixteen million quid for a start. Having fans who are happy with an unsuccessful manager is a dream scenario for these c...s

Ive thought about it Mick and im sorry but that post is absolutly laughable an i dont mean that in a horrible way but that is what id call a post from a no brainer as you like to  say

[LFC2007]

No I don't agree mate. By supporting the manager you are aiding and abetting the owners attempts to run the club while putting in the minimum amount of capital. FWIW I think we are stuck with the owners for the forseeable, as I think buyers for a business such as Liverpool are in extreme short supply at the moment, even allowing for the fairly obvious upside a new manager would bring.

The owners get it all ways with Rafa, but that doesn't mean their scheme will work and I don't think it will. Keeping Rafa though will allow them to trundle on, putting the minimum into the club and having a tame manager who won't rock the boat, as well as fans who have unbelieveably low expectations upon him and the team. You've already got some of them describing this season as being a "blip", when last season was the first time in six seasons which we challenged for the title. We are competing with the likes of Everton and Birmingham, and many fans think that given the circumstances its fair enough.

Imagine if we brought a manager in who got us up there and challenging before walking out on the eve of a big match because the owners had gone back on a promise. That's the last thing they need, so they'll be hoping Rafa stays and everything remains tickety boo.

The ideal scenario for the owners is to sell up for a price acceptable to them as soon as possible. Otherwise their strategy is to pay off the loans they took out to buy the club through the profits the club make in order that they then sell the club on for a healthy profit. If it is true then that Rafa's mismanagement would 'dangle the carrot of potential' glory to a prospective buyer, then his presence makes the first scenario more likely (i.e. the irony of 'supporting failure'). If that doesn't materialise then they are stuck with a manager who - it is presumed - would constrain the club's earnings potential, for instance, by his failure to steer the team to Champions League qualification, which in turn makes the second scenario less likely (if the repayment of the debt is an open question now, what will it be if we miss out on £25m UCL money?).

I'm not for a moment saying they're obviously more likely to favour a change of manager, merely that there are good arguments both ways and on that basis I don't think it's reasonable to argue that by supporting the manager you are 'aiding and abetting' the owners.

[shawnk]

Sacking Rafa is not the magic solution to solving our clubs problems.

No, its just the first step in our recovery

Is there any guarentee it would be thou ?

There are no guarantees in football mate, just ask Rafa about his!

You make your choice based on what you see, I see a team that is playing poorly with no heart and no spirit for a large part of the season, with players baffled and bewildered by the managers decisions, £20million pound players sat on the bench with questions being asked about their mental state, a team that couldn't beat Reading in two goes, that has only won 4 away games all season scoring only 14 goals (less than Wigan), struggling to get 4th place.

I could go on but I am only wasting my breath. No guarantees mate, but a little bit of hope is better than NONE.

Exactly, it's silly to ask for guarantee. Can we guarantee things will improve under Rafa? No.