Liverpool FC Forum

[112-1077774096]

you mean the sort of chances we got at the end of both the city and liege game which he got on the end of to score to win the game

or like the stoke game where is stupidity in trying to get a contact on a free kick which was already going in cost us two points

The very same game where Kuyt had the sense to get to the byline and try create chances that way rather than hoof the ball to the towers known as the stoke defence like the rest of the team. 

oh so now he was the only sensible player on the pitch   

he cost us a goal early on in a game that we should have won, as for his late goals,  maybe we wouldnt have needed them if we had a footballer on the right as oppossed to a hard worker.

next you will be telling is he is s good as dalglish (i know it wasnt you who said this mate, you are not that daft)

[112-1077774096]

bam and igor, sorry guys i am not joking, he had no need to stray into an offside position and attack a ball that was already going in, this is just an example at his all round lack of awareness.

[Kharhaz]

No, but he was one of the ones who tried to make something happen and during that match was one of the better performers. You mention the freekick, Kuyt wasnt actually offside so that proved to be a bad decision by the officials. There are many cases you could mention, the amount of times keane has blocked goalward shots by torres, gerrard having off shots (stoke especially), alonso with the games he is getting he has had a few quiet games, but when it comes to kuyt the arguments are constant. The guy really can do no right. He is the bad guy. If we lose its kuyts fault, thats it. There is no arguments against other players, its kuyts fault. Hes not good enough. He really is the clubs scapegoat. Gerrard can have a stinker, but kuyt will get the blame. But when Kuyt comes good, only the kuyt supporters will praise him, the rest just wait for another poor team performance when kuyt, once again, can be blamed.

[LFC2007]

I don't recall Kuyt being at fault for the disallowed free-kick against Stoke, although I do recall Kuyt setting up Keane who missed a very good chance, and who therefore arguably also 'cost us two points'.

[Igor Zidane]

bam and igor, sorry guys i am not joking, he had no need to stray into an offside position and attack a ball that was already going in, this is just an example at his all round lack of awareness.

It was a free kick not a shot at goal and he had every right to attack it  like every other liverpool player in the area. He was not offside ,the goal was wrongly disallowed.

[Jimmy the Weasel]

No, but he was one of the ones who tried to make something happen and during that match was one of the better performers. You mention the freekick, Kuyt wasnt actually offside so that proved to be a bad decision by the officials. There are many cases you could mention, the amount of times keane has blocked goalward shots by torres, gerrard having off shots (stoke especially), alonso with the games he is getting he has had a few quiet games, but when it comes to kuyt the arguments are constant. The guy really can do no right. He is the bad guy. If we lose its kuyts fault, thats it. There is no arguments against other players, its kuyts fault. Hes not good enough. He really is the clubs scapegoat. Gerrard can have a stinker, but kuyt will get the blame. But when Kuyt comes good, only the kuyt supporters will praise him, the rest just wait for another poor team performance when kuyt, once again, can be blamed.

I don't buy the scapegoat argument at all, and it's a cheap response to criticism of Kuyt most of the time. I do think some of the criticism is over the top, but I also think a lot of it is justified and reasoned. Why do you think the guy gets scrutiny? There is a reason - it's because a lot of people see his shortcomings and have done from the start.

The likes of Gerrard are in 'credit' as far as most people are concerned - because for all the things he does wrong, he does a hell of a lot more right and then some.

I don't feel the same can be said about Kuyt. He is a limited footballer and in my eyes does a lot of things poorly - so the ratio is the other way around for me.

I don't agree that Kuyt "cost us two points" against Stoke but until he is consistently playing well and doing the fundamental things you expect of a top level footballer, he has plenty of work to do before those sort of weak comparisons stand up.

[Kharhaz]

No, but he was one of the ones who tried to make something happen and during that match was one of the better performers. You mention the freekick, Kuyt wasnt actually offside so that proved to be a bad decision by the officials. There are many cases you could mention, the amount of times keane has blocked goalward shots by torres, gerrard having off shots (stoke especially), alonso with the games he is getting he has had a few quiet games, but when it comes to kuyt the arguments are constant. The guy really can do no right. He is the bad guy. If we lose its kuyts fault, thats it. There is no arguments against other players, its kuyts fault. Hes not good enough. He really is the clubs scapegoat. Gerrard can have a stinker, but kuyt will get the blame. But when Kuyt comes good, only the kuyt supporters will praise him, the rest just wait for another poor team performance when kuyt, once again, can be blamed.

I don't buy the scapegoat argument at all, and it's a cheap response to criticism of Kuyt most of the time. I do think some of the criticism is over the top, but I also think a lot of it is justified and reasoned. Why do you think the guy gets scrutiny? There is a reason - it's because a lot of people see his shortcomings and have done from the start.

The likes of Gerrard are in 'credit' as far as most people are concerned - because for all the things he does wrong, he does a hell of a lot more right and then some.

I don't feel the same can be said about Kuyt. He is a limited footballer and in my eyes does a lot of things poorly - so the ratio is the other way around for me.

I don't agree that Kuyt "cost us two points" against Stoke but until he is consistently playing well and doing the fundamental things you expect of a top level footballer, he has plenty of work to do before those sort of weak comparisons stand up.

You could argue the same against Gerrard. He is club captain, he is on a massive wage, he is expected to perform EVERY match. He is the highest paid player in the team, but we can "forgive" him for the odd stinker because now and again he does perform. Thats my point, Kuyt works every match for his wage, not every player does, not even the so called "star" players.

[Jimmy the Weasel]

You could argue the same against Gerrard. He is club captain, he is on a massive wage, he is expected to perform EVERY match. He is the highest paid player in the team, but we can "forgive" him for the odd stinker because now and again he does perform. Thats my point, Kuyt works every match for his wage, not every player does, not even the so called "star" players.

The star players don't appear to have to work as hard because they're simply just better players.

Earning your wage as a footballer isn't just about work rate and team play I'm afraid, it's more than that. Personally I'd prefer a player who worked about 80% of what Kuyt does, but who was a better footballer.

Most of the time I feel Kuyt's performances are pretty much the same - plenty of endeavour and not an awful lot more. I refer again to the Man City match, where he was inept for 92 minutes on the field. But because he scored, the Kuyt fans think we should all dismiss his poor overall performance (calling him a scapegoat, for example) whereas I think that he deserves credit for the goal, but criticism for the fact that frankly, he hindered our attacking play on the right side for the entire game.

[Kharhaz]

You could argue the same against Gerrard. He is club captain, he is on a massive wage, he is expected to perform EVERY match. He is the highest paid player in the team, but we can "forgive" him for the odd stinker because now and again he does perform. Thats my point, Kuyt works every match for his wage, not every player does, not even the so called "star" players.

The star players don't appear to have to work as hard because they're simply just better players.

Earning your wage as a footballer isn't just about work rate and team play I'm afraid, it's more than that. Personally I'd prefer a player who worked about 80% of what Kuyt does, but who was a better footballer.

Most of the time I feel Kuyt's performances are pretty much the same - plenty of endeavour and not an awful lot more. I refer again to the Man City match, where he was inept for 92 minutes on the field. But because he scored, the Kuyt fans think we should all dismiss his poor overall performance (calling him a scapegoat, for example) whereas I think that he deserves credit for the goal, but criticism for the fact that frankly, he hindered our attacking play on the right side for the entire game.

True. But you also have to look at the entire team. There have been a few games where Gerrard has been absent, so has Torres. With torres the arguments of he isnt match fit, and the same given to gerrard. If there not match fit, why did rafa pick them?

No there is no doubt in my mind at all, kuyt is a scapegoat, to prove my point perfectly, watch the stoke match then read this forum Liverpool v Stoke. The fact that kuyt has his own topic (and many have been raised) proves my point.

[Fo Dne]

No, but he was one of the ones who tried to make something happen and during that match was one of the better performers. You mention the freekick, Kuyt wasnt actually offside so that proved to be a bad decision by the officials. There are many cases you could mention, the amount of times keane has blocked goalward shots by torres, gerrard having off shots (stoke especially), alonso with the games he is getting he has had a few quiet games, but when it comes to kuyt the arguments are constant. The guy really can do no right. He is the bad guy. If we lose its kuyts fault, thats it. There is no arguments against other players, its kuyts fault. Hes not good enough. He really is the clubs scapegoat. Gerrard can have a stinker, but kuyt will get the blame. But when Kuyt comes good, only the kuyt supporters will praise him, the rest just wait for another poor team performance when kuyt, once again, can be blamed.

I don't buy the scapegoat argument at all, and it's a cheap response to criticism of Kuyt most of the time. I do think some of the criticism is over the top, but I also think a lot of it is justified and reasoned. Why do you think the guy gets scrutiny? There is a reason - it's because a lot of people see his shortcomings and have done from the start.

The likes of Gerrard are in 'credit' as far as most people are concerned - because for all the things he does wrong, he does a hell of a lot more right and then some.

I don't feel the same can be said about Kuyt. He is a limited footballer and in my eyes does a lot of things poorly - so the ratio is the other way around for me.

I don't agree that Kuyt "cost us two points" against Stoke but until he is consistently playing well and doing the fundamental things you expect of a top level footballer, he has plenty of work to do before those sort of weak comparisons stand up.

Very good post.

[Fo Dne]

You could argue the same against Gerrard. He is club captain, he is on a massive wage, he is expected to perform EVERY match. He is the highest paid player in the team, but we can "forgive" him for the odd stinker because now and again he does perform. Thats my point, Kuyt works every match for his wage, not every player does, not even the so called "star" players.

The star players don't appear to have to work as hard because they're simply just better players.

Earning your wage as a footballer isn't just about work rate and team play I'm afraid, it's more than that. Personally I'd prefer a player who worked about 80% of what Kuyt does, but who was a better footballer.

Most of the time I feel Kuyt's performances are pretty much the same - plenty of endeavour and not an awful lot more. I refer again to the Man City match, where he was inept for 92 minutes on the field. But because he scored, the Kuyt fans think we should all dismiss his poor overall performance (calling him a scapegoat, for example) whereas I think that he deserves credit for the goal, but criticism for the fact that frankly, he hindered our attacking play on the right side for the entire game.

Another very good post.

[Fo Dne]

You could argue the same against Gerrard. He is club captain, he is on a massive wage, he is expected to perform EVERY match. He is the highest paid player in the team, but we can "forgive" him for the odd stinker because now and again he does perform. Thats my point, Kuyt works every match for his wage, not every player does, not even the so called "star" players.

The star players don't appear to have to work as hard because they're simply just better players.

Earning your wage as a footballer isn't just about work rate and team play I'm afraid, it's more than that. Personally I'd prefer a player who worked about 80% of what Kuyt does, but who was a better footballer.

Most of the time I feel Kuyt's performances are pretty much the same - plenty of endeavour and not an awful lot more. I refer again to the Man City match, where he was inept for 92 minutes on the field. But because he scored, the Kuyt fans think we should all dismiss his poor overall performance (calling him a scapegoat, for example) whereas I think that he deserves credit for the goal, but criticism for the fact that frankly, he hindered our attacking play on the right side for the entire game.

True. But you also have to look at the entire team. There have been a few games where Gerrard has been absent, so has Torres. With torres the arguments of he isnt match fit, and the same given to gerrard. If there not match fit, why did rafa pick them?

No there is no doubt in my mind at all, kuyt is a scapegoat, to prove my point perfectly, watch the stoke match then read this forum Liverpool v Stoke. The fact that kuyt has his own topic (and many have been raised) proves my point.

The fact Gerrard and Torres only have threads saying how good they are says it all really. The fact the Kuyt thread is a 66 page arguement about how bad or how great he is says it all.

Kuyt would be a decent back up as a fourth or maybe third choice striker. Nothing more, nothing less. He's not good enough to start every week. He works hard, his attitudes fantastic, his stamina's amazing but nearly every other attribute he has is that of a championship player or relegation class premiership player. There's hundreds of players better than him in the league who would contribute in other ways and ways in which he can only dream of.

[Jimmy the Weasel]

You could argue the same against Gerrard. He is club captain, he is on a massive wage, he is expected to perform EVERY match. He is the highest paid player in the team, but we can "forgive" him for the odd stinker because now and again he does perform. Thats my point, Kuyt works every match for his wage, not every player does, not even the so called "star" players.

The star players don't appear to have to work as hard because they're simply just better players.

Earning your wage as a footballer isn't just about work rate and team play I'm afraid, it's more than that. Personally I'd prefer a player who worked about 80% of what Kuyt does, but who was a better footballer.

Most of the time I feel Kuyt's performances are pretty much the same - plenty of endeavour and not an awful lot more. I refer again to the Man City match, where he was inept for 92 minutes on the field. But because he scored, the Kuyt fans think we should all dismiss his poor overall performance (calling him a scapegoat, for example) whereas I think that he deserves credit for the goal, but criticism for the fact that frankly, he hindered our attacking play on the right side for the entire game.

True. But you also have to look at the entire team. There have been a few games where Gerrard has been absent, so has Torres. With torres the arguments of he isnt match fit, and the same given to gerrard. If there not match fit, why did rafa pick them?

No there is no doubt in my mind at all, kuyt is a scapegoat, to prove my point perfectly, watch the stoke match then read this forum Liverpool v Stoke. The fact that kuyt has his own topic (and many have been raised) proves my point.

It doesn't prove your point at all I don't think. All it proves is that Kuyt divides fans like no other player does.

I'm as critical as anyone of him, and I don't consider myself as making him a scapegoat. I judge on what I see.

With regard to your points about Gerrard and Torres, I answered that suggestion in a previous post (not quoted just to avoid an on going trail of replies) but I basically think that they are in 'credit' with fans, in my opinion. So for all the times they're ineffective, there are a hell of a lot more games when they're the ones who boss it and determine the way it goes.

I can only recall a small handful of matches where I can say Kuyt has significantly influenced the flow of a game. He has a lot more to do before those comparisons stand up.

[Bam]

The fact Gerrard and Torres only have threads saying how good they are says it all really

So what about the Alonso thread then Stu ?

[Fo Dne]

So what about the Alonso thread then Stu ?

What about it?

As far as I'm aware thats not there to discuss whether Xabi's a great player or not, its simply whether he deserves a place over Mascherano. Anyone who doesn't think Alonso's a good player know's nothing about the sport. End of.