Liverpool FC Forum

s@int wrote:

Leonmc0708 wrote:

s@int wrote:

Leonmc0708 wrote:In my personal first eleven, Torres is up front on his JAck Jones, and KEane is on the bench.

I agree Leon. I have always prefered 4-4-2, but I think with the players we have now 4-2-3-1 is definitely our strongest formation, and best team. 

Still not too sure if Gerrard can do it from that position against the big teams, but certainly against the rest anyway.

Gerrard is best when not shackled with the responsibilities of playing with discipline. He is the kidn of player you just have to allow licence to express himself.

Mascherano and Alonso is equally an absolute DREAM pairing in midfield, and Torres is arguably best when up top alone.

Whisper it, but we do have what looks like a strong side.

While we seem to have a shortage of top quality replacements for our 14 or 15 man squad (I honestly don't think the rest are up to it at the moment.) I think we can use all 4 players (Keane/Gerrard/Alonso and Masch)resting one and changing between 4-4-2 and 4-3-2-1 depending on circumstances and opponents, without greatly reducing the strength of the side.

The surprising thing for me this season is how quickly Riera AND Kuyt have become key players for us, and how quickly Babel ,Pennant and Benayoun (to an extent)seem to have become poor second choice bit part players.

I don't want to get into the whole rotation argument, but for me playing a more settled side has certainly helped to make it clear that some of our squad players just arn't up to the job. Alternatively maybe we arn't rotating as much because we HAVE better players, or at least players that are playing much better (Kuyt/Alonso).

If we can avoid injuries and maybe strengthen a couple of places at Christmas(even if its just with better squad players) , I think we are in with half a chance.

Babel has looked quite effective as a supersub in the past, but Rafa has a fetish for taking Riera off and I'm not convinced Babel is as effective playing wide.

I'm sure in the case of Benayoun it must be frustrating to have got to the best club he has ever played for, and is likely to, only to be benched. It doesn't excuse some of his poor ball retention and lack of vision at times, but he's also being stuck out wide and used where a role needs filling - another Rafa fetish, playing players out of position!

Pennant is just cr@p. Unfortunately we've spent a lot of money on players barely good enough to be in the squad and Rafa has arguably wasted nearly as much money on squad players and over-priced players as he has quality.

Squad/Overpriced/Cr@p players : Keane £20.3m, Babel £11.5m, Benayoun £5m, Lucas £5m, Plessis ?, N'Gog £1.5m, Dossena £7m, Cavalieri £3m, Leto £1.85m, Pennant £6.7m, Voronin, Degen, Itandje. (plus Hyypia signed by Houllier)

TOTAL : £61.85m

Quality/1st Team : Torres £21m, Arbeloa £2.6m, Kuyt £10m, Alonso £10.5m, Mascherano £18.6m, Riera £8m, Skrtel £6m, Agger £5.8m, Aurelio, Reina £6m (plus Gerrard and Carragher not signed)

TOTAL : £88.5m

At one stage Kuyt would have fallen in the other category, Hyypia wasn't signed by Rafa but even so that shows that Rafa does throw a lot of money at players and isn't necessarily the best in the transfer market. Even so a lot of fans want him to have even more money in January, I wonder who he'd sell and which category the subsequent signings would fall under............. So far only Riera of the summer signings has proved worthwhile, and we paid £38m+ for the lot of them when the one worthwhile signing cost £8m

Owzat wrote:

tonyeh wrote:Well, I'm suggesting that Rafa needs to stop fücking around with Robbie Keane. This business of taking him off on the hour every game cannot be doing him any good at all. It's getting to the point where Keane knows that when the hour's up, he's off. Even when a hat-trick is on the cards like last week.

Before the Torres injury, himself and Keane were looking quite good and they were beginning to gel somewhat and I think it's time to re-engineer that again.

Keane's movement was good today and bar the admitedly awful miss (and he wasn't alone in that today), he was doing well. But it doesn't seem how bad or well he does, he gets subbed!

Funnily enough it's about LIVERPOOL not Robbie Keane. Keane had plenty of time to complete his hat-trick, both his goals were first half and he was subbed around the usual time Rafa brings on subs which was all or the best part of HALF AN HOUR after his second goal. It's not like he scored his second and Rafa took him off immediately

I don't know how you work out that Keane and Torres were gelling :

- Keane's brace against WBA was scored BEFORE Torres came on

- Torres scored one before Keane came on against Citeh and the other shortly after

- Torres' winner against Sunderland was scored after Keane had come off

- Keane's goal against Atletico came while Torres was out injured

So only Keane's goal against the less than impressive PSV and Torres' brace against an equally unimpressive bitters side could really be used to show some kind of understanding or partnership and that's four goals out of their combined nine - bearing in mind Torres hasn't had much chance to play up front on his own so he should score more with both together since that is more common than Torres on his own.

tonyeh wrote:In addition, Liverpool need to start concentrating on playing with two strikers, after all that is what Rafa paid 20 mil for.

Robbie can't play up on his own, neither can any of the other options bar Torres (and even that's debatable this year). It's that simple, he needs another striker to play with. It's beneficial to Liverpool too as it creates more options in attack, which Liverpool can be sorely lacking in at times.

Rafa paid £20m to bolster the strikeforce, I've said before that just because he is the second most expensive player in the squad doesn't mean he has to start every game or we have to shape the team - potentially at it's detriment - to accommodate Keane.

You sure you support Liverpool for Liverpool or for Keane? Your arrival on here coincides way too much with his at Anfield. Keane has a lot of making up to do, I completely disagree that Torres can't play up front on his own. At the moment the best options are Torres on his own up front, THEN the two together and then Keane on his own. Keane hasn't shown much gelling at all with Torres, TWO of his four goals have come with Torres off the pitch and all Keane has shown so far is a horrible tendancy to miss chances he should score. Maybe that is pressure, but Keane wanted to sign for his "boyhood club" and did he expect there to be no pressure?

Keane's been given more opportunity than he deserves, because of his price tag. Crouch, Fowler, Bellamy, Morientes etc would be shipped out in January or the summer if they'd been in Keane's boots and missing like he too often does and scoring one in five as he is (one in four or even three if you go for the bigmick school of figure fiddling)[/quote]
Good post.

Owzat wrote:

s@int wrote:

Leonmc0708 wrote:

s@int wrote:

Leonmc0708 wrote:In my personal first eleven, Torres is up front on his JAck Jones, and KEane is on the bench.

I agree Leon. I have always prefered 4-4-2, but I think with the players we have now 4-2-3-1 is definitely our strongest formation, and best team. 

Still not too sure if Gerrard can do it from that position against the big teams, but certainly against the rest anyway.

Gerrard is best when not shackled with the responsibilities of playing with discipline. He is the kidn of player you just have to allow licence to express himself.

Mascherano and Alonso is equally an absolute DREAM pairing in midfield, and Torres is arguably best when up top alone.

Whisper it, but we do have what looks like a strong side.

While we seem to have a shortage of top quality replacements for our 14 or 15 man squad (I honestly don't think the rest are up to it at the moment.) I think we can use all 4 players (Keane/Gerrard/Alonso and Masch)resting one and changing between 4-4-2 and 4-3-2-1 depending on circumstances and opponents, without greatly reducing the strength of the side.

The surprising thing for me this season is how quickly Riera AND Kuyt have become key players for us, and how quickly Babel ,Pennant and Benayoun (to an extent)seem to have become poor second choice bit part players.

I don't want to get into the whole rotation argument, but for me playing a more settled side has certainly helped to make it clear that some of our squad players just arn't up to the job. Alternatively maybe we arn't rotating as much because we HAVE better players, or at least players that are playing much better (Kuyt/Alonso).

If we can avoid injuries and maybe strengthen a couple of places at Christmas(even if its just with better squad players) , I think we are in with half a chance.

Babel has looked quite effective as a supersub in the past, but Rafa has a fetish for taking Riera off and I'm not convinced Babel is as effective playing wide.

I'm sure in the case of Benayoun it must be frustrating to have got to the best club he has ever played for, and is likely to, only to be benched. It doesn't excuse some of his poor ball retention and lack of vision at times, but he's also being stuck out wide and used where a role needs filling - another Rafa fetish, playing players out of position!

Pennant is just cr@p. Unfortunately we've spent a lot of money on players barely good enough to be in the squad and Rafa has arguably wasted nearly as much money on squad players and over-priced players as he has quality.

Squad/Overpriced/Cr@p players : Keane £20.3m, Babel £11.5m, Benayoun £5m, Lucas £5m, Plessis ?, N'Gog £1.5m, Dossena £7m, Cavalieri £3m, Leto £1.85m, Pennant £6.7m, Voronin, Degen, Itandje. (plus Hyypia signed by Houllier)

TOTAL : £61.85m

Quality/1st Team : Torres £21m, Arbeloa £2.6m, Kuyt £10m, Alonso £10.5m, Mascherano £18.6m, Riera £8m, Skrtel £6m, Agger £5.8m, Aurelio, Reina £6m (plus Gerrard and Carragher not signed)

TOTAL : £88.5m

At one stage Kuyt would have fallen in the other category, Hyypia wasn't signed by Rafa but even so that shows that Rafa does throw a lot of money at players and isn't necessarily the best in the transfer market. Even so a lot of fans want him to have even more money in January, I wonder who he'd sell and which category the subsequent signings would fall under............. So far only Riera of the summer signings has proved worthwhile, and we paid £38m+ for the lot of them when the one worthwhile signing cost £8m

erm are you trying to suggest that Hyppia has been a worse defender for us than Aurelio and Arbelola, how long have you been a fan then, just the last few seasons I suspect judging by such a fatuous and stupid suggestion.

LFC2007 wrote:I thought Masch and Alonso were both outstanding yesterday, but especially Alonso.

His positioning to receive the ball and his choice of pass were brilliant - as they usually are, but especially on this occasion. Most of our play went through him, and in the lead up to the first goal he dictated the play with his passing. It helped advance us upfield, so we could then get Aurelio forward who then provided the assist.

He was fairly sound defensively, but the highlight for me was when he caught Nolan out of possession with an intelligent piece of play to then set up Torres for Gerrard's 2yd sitter. Brilliant reading of the game as well as a show of confidence to press that high up.

spot on mate!! i thought alonso was different class yesterday, his passing,& his alround play was the difference for us. the whole team played well yesterday demonstrating why as concerning as it is for us there is a massive gulf in standards between the first team & the fringe/reserve players. the attitude,ability & desire to defend & attack as a team, was a display of confidence & consistancy. well played red men, my blood pressure is back to normal after that dislpay. 

LFC2007 wrote:I thought Masch and Alonso were both outstanding yesterday, but especially Alonso.

His positioning to receive the ball and his choice of pass were brilliant - as they usually are, but especially on this occasion. Most of our play went through him, and in the lead up to the first goal he dictated the play with his passing. It helped advance us upfield, so we could then get Aurelio forward who then provided the assist.

He was fairly sound defensively, but the highlight for me was when he caught Nolan out of possession with an intelligent piece of play to then set up Torres for Gerrard's 2yd sitter. Brilliant reading of the game as well as a show of confidence to press that high up.

Yeh, Alonso did a very good game, better than his standards. But none of his game would have been possible without the excellent Mascherano's "unseen" or "dirty" work.

Under that system yesteryear Mascherano and Alonso switched more the roles, now it seems Mascherano has over him the defensive duties and Alonso is asked to be on front of him. You still can see switches, but not that often.

Sabre wrote:

LFC2007 wrote:I thought Masch and Alonso were both outstanding yesterday, but especially Alonso.

His positioning to receive the ball and his choice of pass were brilliant - as they usually are, but especially on this occasion. Most of our play went through him, and in the lead up to the first goal he dictated the play with his passing. It helped advance us upfield, so we could then get Aurelio forward who then provided the assist.

He was fairly sound defensively, but the highlight for me was when he caught Nolan out of possession with an intelligent piece of play to then set up Torres for Gerrard's 2yd sitter. Brilliant reading of the game as well as a show of confidence to press that high up.

Yeh, Alonso did a very good game, better than his standards. But none of his game would have been possible without the excellent Mascherano's "unseen" or "dirty" work.

Under that system yesteryear Mascherano and Alonso switched more the roles, now it seems Mascherano has over him the defensive duties and Alonso is asked to be on front of him. You still can see switches, but not that often.

Good observation... noticed that too..
That said though, i still think Alonso needs to start dictating play higher up... his passing and vision are world class no doubt about it... however his contribution in our forward play atm seems to be limited to some hopeful through balls who (and lets be honest about it) cant be expected to result in too many goals throughout the season, and more obviously dictating the play around the halfway line; admirable, impressive, end of the day sometimes hes not all that productive...
Higher up he sort of either goes missing or is simply too deep to have a telling contribution in terms of creating chances or slipping players through...

He's been outstanding this season in what he does... great passing at times, good composure on the ball... a big factor in us retaining possession when needed...

I think he needs to start getting a little more involved higher up the pitch with Mascherano being the one who covers the back 4 when needed... Alonso certainly seems like a player who'd be very good playing close to the players who have the ball (especially wingers and fullbacks down the flanks) because he can pick out great passes that can open up defenses and put players through... Carrick does that alot for ManUtd and Deco is doing it now for Chelsea, to a lesser extent Barry does it for Villa ?! ?! .... they dont play as deep as Alonso does, and thats probably why they score more goals, have more assists...etc etc..

If we'r going to play 4-5-1, i think Alonso definitely has to be a little more adventurous going forward.. it wont necessarily mean that we dont keep as much possession as we do now, it would probably mean that we pressure teams higher up and allow our fullbacks and other midfieders more space and time on the ball..

All goes back to the fact that we quite simply dont seem like a top top side going forward... havent for quite some time and so far this season the problem seems to still be there when we play 1 upfront (might be a little premature since we havent seen much of the torres-Keane pairing yet) ...its not as much about players taking their chances as some seem to suggest, to me its more the fact that we cant seem to break opponents and create enough dangerous situations when teams set out to defend welll against us... if we go back to 2 upfront that could and imo would be a big improvement... We'd utilize most of our good players in the best way possible (Gerrrard, alonso, mascherano, keane, riera) and definitely have more options and alternatives in the final third... more players who are likely to score scoring... more players who are likely to get assists getting them... and players like Alonso and Mascherano who honestly arent expected to score or create many goals wouldnt be under much pressure to do so...

It's not a dig at Alonso... he's probably my favourite Liverpool player and i think hes probably one of the best midfielders in the world today... my problem is with the system we play... i know its working a treat atm and i know ur not supposed to change a working formation/lineup..etc... but i cant help but think that sooner or later, if we keep performing and playing the way we are, we'll drop valuable points that could potentially rule us out of a title race...

  This is the best chance Liverpool have had for a title challenge in years... We beat Unt, Chelsea and are joint top with a seemingly easy run of fixtures coming up... would be absolutely devastated if we end up losing ambition and prospect because of points dropped against smaller clubs ... would be even more frustrating if its because we drew too many games again and couldnt kill off smaller teams when we should have.. means we arent learning form our mistakes...