Liverpool FC Forum

[LFC2007]

That said though, i still think Alonso needs to start dictating play higher up... his passing and vision are world class no doubt about it... however his contribution in our forward play atm seems to be limited to some hopeful through balls who (and lets be honest about it) cant be expected to result in too many goals throughout the season, and more obviously dictating the play around the halfway line; admirable, impressive, end of the day sometimes hes not all that productive...
Higher up he sort of either goes missing or is simply too deep to have a telling contribution in terms of creating chances or slipping players through...

I think he needs to start getting a little more involved higher up the pitch with Mascherano being the one who covers the back 4 when needed... Alonso certainly seems like a player who'd be very good playing close to the players who have the ball (especially wingers and fullbacks down the flanks) because he can pick out great passes that can open up defenses and put players through... Carrick does that alot for ManUtd and Deco is doing it now for Chelsea, to a lesser extent Barry does it for Villa ?! ?! .... they dont play as deep as Alonso does, and thats probably why they score more goals, have more assists...etc etc..

...

There's always room for improvement, but Alonso's playing as near to the top of his game as I've seen him. He isn't, never has been, never will be a Deco type of player. Deco's more like Scholes - two players who link the play higher up, pose a big(ger) goal threat and have immense vision and passing ability. Alonso's style is to dictate from deep - to know when to keep possession, when to spray it wide, and to know when to move into space to help advance the team's position, from which we can apply greater pressure. He's more like Carrick or Barry, just a lot better in this type of form. Carrick isn't an assist merchant either, and only really gets more than Alonso because of the team he plays in. Man Utd's movement off the ball has always much better than ours.

[aCe']

That said though, i still think Alonso needs to start dictating play higher up... his passing and vision are world class no doubt about it... however his contribution in our forward play atm seems to be limited to some hopeful through balls who (and lets be honest about it) cant be expected to result in too many goals throughout the season, and more obviously dictating the play around the halfway line; admirable, impressive, end of the day sometimes hes not all that productive...
Higher up he sort of either goes missing or is simply too deep to have a telling contribution in terms of creating chances or slipping players through...

I think he needs to start getting a little more involved higher up the pitch with Mascherano being the one who covers the back 4 when needed... Alonso certainly seems like a player who'd be very good playing close to the players who have the ball (especially wingers and fullbacks down the flanks) because he can pick out great passes that can open up defenses and put players through... Carrick does that alot for ManUtd and Deco is doing it now for Chelsea, to a lesser extent Barry does it for Villa ?! ?! .... they dont play as deep as Alonso does, and thats probably why they score more goals, have more assists...etc etc..

...

There's always room for improvement, but Alonso's playing as near to the top of his game as I've seen him. He isn't, never has been, never will be a Deco type of player. Deco's more like Scholes - two players who link the play higher up, pose a big(ger) goal threat and have immense vision and passing ability. Alonso's style is to dictate from deep - to know when to keep possession, when to spray it wide, and to know when to move into space to help advance the team's position, from which we can apply greater pressure. He's more like Carrick or Barry, just a lot better in this type of form. Carrick isn't an assist merchant either, and only really gets more than Alonso because of the team he plays in. Man Utd's movement off the ball has always much better than ours.

I get ur point an i think u make some excellent points in ur post..

First off when you talk about Alonso playing deep and dictating play from deep... He's absolutely brilliant in doing that but i dont think we need Alonso doing that, Mascherano basically doing superb defensive work and Fck.All going forward, and then Gerrard playing higher up simply trying to slip forwards (or in our case the one forward) through... its too limited and predictable and end of the day... u'd have to change the formation a bit or the lineup to start creating chances if ur struggling to break a team.. ManUtd are the great attacking side they are because they come at you from everywhere... theyr movement is brilliant but its mostly because the likes of Carrick and Scholes are always available in advanced position to be picked out... we dont have that... another reason imo for us to go 4-4-2 and basically try to play to our strengths..


  "to know when to move into space to help advance the team's position"

i dont think he does enough of that... at time he looks too static when he should be tryin to get into better positions to recieve the ball... he seems happy enough to pick out the pass (however good it is) and stand there waiting for the return or covering incase of a counter... he seems more interested in moving to accept passes from defenders than he is from forwards..

And by the way Deco is playing a very different role for Chelsea this season from what iv seen of him... he plays very deep which isnt his style but still seems very interested in going forward and recieving passes from wingers and passers...


By the way... i dont really remember the last time i saw Alonso inside the opposition pennalty box... surely if we'r playing 4-5-1 atleast one of him or Mascherano should be making runs throuh the middle to recieve balls inside the box ?!

[SupitsJonF]

I don't know how you work out that Keane and Torres were gelling

They were looking good around the Everton game. Your waffling about the WBA match is AFTER Torres' injury. I am talking about them both being on the pitch BEFORE Torres got injured. Anything after that doesn't really count.

Wtf?  Anything after that doesn't count?  So the rest of the season, doesn't count?  Doesn't matter if they gelled in the past, what matters is the games now.

[LFC2007]

First off when you talk about Alonso playing deep and dictating play from deep... He's absolutely brilliant in doing that but i dont think we need Alonso doing that, Mascherano basically doing superb defensive work and Fck.All going forward, and then Gerrard playing higher up simply trying to slip forwards (or in our case the one forward) through... its too limited and predictable and end of the day... u'd have to change the formation a bit or the lineup to start creating chances if ur struggling to break a team.. ManUtd are the great attacking side they are because they come at you from everywhere... theyr movement is brilliant but its mostly because the likes of Carrick and Scholes are always available in advanced position to be picked out... we dont have that... another reason imo for us to go 4-4-2 and basically try to play to our strengths..


  "to know when to move into space to help advance the team's position"

i dont think he does enough of that... at time he looks too static when he should be tryin to get into better positions to recieve the ball... he seems happy enough to pick out the pass (however good it is) and stand there waiting for the return or covering incase of a counter... he seems more interested in moving to accept passes from defenders than he is from forwards..

And by the way Deco is playing a very different role for Chelsea this season from what iv seen of him... he plays very deep which isnt his style but still seems very interested in going forward and recieving passes from wingers and passers...


By the way... i dont really remember the last time i saw Alonso inside the opposition pennalty box... surely if we'r playing 4-5-1 atleast one of him or Mascherano should be making runs throuh the middle to recieve balls inside the box ?!

Carrick goes forward more than Alonso, but he's not a link player in the Lampard, Deco, or Scholes sense of the phrase. Just generally the movement and quality from the likes of Rooney, Ronaldo, Berbatov, Tevez and the fact they have full backs who often get up in support means they create more threatening chances, and is the main reason they thrash sides more often than us. Basically, I disagree because I don't think Carrick's forward movements are key to the way they play.

When you say you'd prefer Alonso to push on a bit more into attacking areas, I know exactly what you mean and I agree we do need another player to infiltrate space, but he isn't that type of player because he needs more time on the ball and isn't agile enough. He's best placed where he can read the game, and that's in a slightly deeper position. Suffice to say I think he has been playing a little higher up the pitch this season, and has been supporting attacking moves more often. He set up a great chance the other day because of his drive to support the play, and he also had an excellent strike saved by Jaaskelainen. If we had a Deco/Fabregas/Diego etc.. they would be perfect for the type of role you suggest, or alternatively playing with a 4-4-2 and asking Keane to be more of a link man - which I'm hopeful he'll be able to do.

When I said he (Alonso) knows when to move into space to help advance the team's position, I mean short movements. So, he receives the ball, he sprays it wide to Kuyt/Riera, and then pushes into space vacated by the opposition. I wouldn't expect him to push on beyond that too often. Only when there is more space to exploit between the opposing midfield, or when the opposition have lost their shape slightly, e.g. in a counter-attacking scenario.

I think we just have to accept that one of the consequences of playing with a 4-2-3-1 with the players we have at our disposal means that we won't have as much support through the middle. Although I do think Riera, and especially Kuyt have been providing more support in the formation this season. They do move inside to help out quite often.

[DanAn]

Playing fanatic in my opinion. I have great confidence big scores will come once our forwards settle.

The thing that has me most pleased though is the last few performances of or starting fullbacks. After Dossena's disaster and Degen's dismall display (against the Spurs) seeing Aurelio play a part in another goal today of the back of last week was fantastic. While on the right Arbeloa has also been on fire the last month (prior to suspension).

Lack of depth in the fullbacks no doubt is concerning but haven't those to stepped up.

[Scottbot]

If we'r going to play 4-5-1, i think Alonso definitely has to be a little more adventurous going forward

To be fair I think he has been fairly adventurous this season and agree with the posters who said that he and Masch have been inter-changing more often this season. Looking at the game yesterday Alonso got into some advanced positions during the first half when we had them begged back for the majority, he pretty much ran the game. When Bolton came out firing in the 2nd half (is it me or has no-one given them any credit for their excellent 2nd half performance?) it was no surprise to see Alonso playing much deeper.

[Sabre]

For those mates that could not see the game entirely and do not like to fiddle with torrents and stuff, you can download the game with simple steps

First, enter the 3 letters that you can read (it's to make sure you're a human and not a program)

Second, wait about 55 seconds and you'll be able to download each part

First half

Second Half

[JC_81]

Yeah I agree,but what totally drives me insane is that people need to see goals before they value his worth!
The fella has been a total breath of fresh air for this team,his energy and commitment are fantastic.people moan,yeah he gives the ball away and all that,so do Gerrard..Alonso and Masch at times.

The thing is Barry, when Kuyt isn't scoring (or assisting) then the ends doesn't justify the means for me.  Basically I don't mind putting up with his poor first touch, bad passing and general lack of skill when he works really hard for the team and weighs in with his fair share of goals (like he is doing now).  But take away the goals and it becomes more of a debate. 

For me he showed a lot of improvement in the second half of last season (as you said), and he seems to have kicked on even more this year and even found his shooting boots.  I have criticised him in the past and I probably will do again in the future, but I'm delighted he's doing so well and getting some credit because no one sweats for the shirt like he does.

On the Bolton game, I thought it was a good team display, we looked like the home side and should have won by 5 or 6.  Hyypia had a good game, so did Alonso and Riera.  Gerrard can play better and Torres is still finding sharpness, but those two can always pull something special out of the bag even when not at the peak of form or fitness, as they showed for the second goal.  We move on.  Fulham next up.

[tonyeh]

I don't know how you work out that Keane and Torres were gelling

They were looking good around the Everton game. Your waffling about the WBA match is AFTER Torres' injury. I am talking about them both being on the pitch BEFORE Torres got injured. Anything after that doesn't really count.

Wtf?  Anything after that doesn't count?  So the rest of the season, doesn't count?  Doesn't matter if they gelled in the past, what matters is the games now.

No, for fücks sake. Stats after Torres' injury don't matter when talking about Keane and Torres gelling together on the pitch, cos Torres isn't on the pitch.

OBVIOUSLY, now that Torres is fit and if Rafa play's them up top together, it'll matter.

How can we talk about a Torres/Keane partnership forming (or not as the case may be) when one's been injured and they aren't playing together?

[tonyeh]

By the way... i dont really remember the last time i saw Alonso inside the opposition pennalty box... surely if we'r playing 4-5-1 atleast one of him or Mascherano should be making runs throuh the middle to recieve balls inside the box ?!

A number of times I've seen Keane getting forward and to the left of the 6 yard box (he seems to have a tendency to do this), with NOBODY in a red shirt up with him. This means he faces 4,5 or 6 defenders alone and has nowhere to go.

This happened a few times on Saturday.

With a 4-5-1, the striker (no matter who they are) is usually left stranded with no support. It's better than it was before, because at least Riera and Kuyt are getting forward at times now and it's resulted in some good goals for Dirk, but it still means that their is usually no-one to make a pass to inside if the striker is forced to the left or right of the box. Gerrard can get forward, if he's the freedom to do so, but Mascherano and Alonso are usually nowhere to be seen.

As I said before, Keane's movement has been good, but quite often he's had nowhere to go when he's had the ball.

[JamCar05]

A good win, where we could and should have scored a few more goals at least. But as Scottbot mentioned, you would also have to give due credit to Bolton for their second half display. They really had us pegged back on quite a few occasions before we got that all decisive second goal (nice one by the way ). But the way we controlled the first half was really delightful to see, and again after the second goal it became evident that we were the better team out there, as our players got more confident going forward. All in all it's looking great atm, and long may it continue.

[Owzat]

I don't know how you work out that Keane and Torres were gelling

They were looking good around the Everton game. Your waffling about the WBA match is AFTER Torres' injury. I am talking about them both being on the pitch BEFORE Torres got injured. Anything after that doesn't really count.

Wtf?  Anything after that doesn't count?  So the rest of the season, doesn't count?  Doesn't matter if they gelled in the past, what matters is the games now.

No, for fücks sake. Stats after Torres' injury don't matter when talking about Keane and Torres gelling together on the pitch, cos Torres isn't on the pitch.

OBVIOUSLY, now that Torres is fit and if Rafa play's them up top together, it'll matter.

How can we talk about a Torres/Keane partnership forming (or not as the case may be) when one's been injured and they aren't playing together?

You mean the bitters game where the bluesh1te were so poor that we didn't have to play that well to beat them? Or maybe the PSV game where they were so poor that we didn't have to play that well to beat them either? Thereafter began this "spell that doesn't count" since Keane was sub in the Citeh game and missed the next six.

So on the basis of TWO games they were gelling? Ballacks. They've shown a few glimpses of gelling, but Torres is quality and so inevitably some inter-passing is bound to work.

Of course we've played one up front for quite a few games recently and lost only the games against spudz, the first of which we should have finished off and the other being the reserves. Although Keane didn't play brilliantly against Bolton, and scored good goals against WBA, the system of one up front has been working. I'd say in some respects it is better because it allows Kuyt that little bit more freedom to push into very advanced positions from the right. It also means we have Gerrard supporting the front man and he's a definite threat in that role.

Next answer to everything tonyeh, I can see you are going to defend Keane to the death despite claims you don't love him just because you called him a gobsh1te once


Rafa should continue with the one up front system since Keane and Torres have shown little signs of gelling and the team has been quietly effective with one up front. As for suggestion there is no goal threat with one up front - poppycock. Torres scored 18 goals in 23 games second half of last season and a lot of them played alone up front. Liverpool won 13 of their last 19 games last season and a number of those were in the then new one up front system. Gerrard scores and Kuyt scores. The problem is Gerrard is slightly less advance playing 4-4-2 and Keane is no more likely to score than Gerrard, so having two non-gelling strikers of whom one hasn't hit top form yet and the other can't even hit the target half the time, is hardly going to make us more prolific with goals.

[tonyeh]

They've shown a few glimpses of gelling

Ah, you agree so.........good.

[tonyeh]

Next answer to everything tonyeh, I can see you are going to defend Keane to the death despite claims you don't love him just because you called him a gobsh1te once

Mmmmmm...I see I'm dealing with a child here. As said earlier, I was sceptical about his signing at Liverpool. But, of course, you won't have the ability to actually read that.

[Bam]

I don't know how you work out that Keane and Torres were gelling

They were looking good around the Everton game. Your waffling about the WBA match is AFTER Torres' injury. I am talking about them both being on the pitch BEFORE Torres got injured. Anything after that doesn't really count.

Wtf?  Anything after that doesn't count?  So the rest of the season, doesn't count?  Doesn't matter if they gelled in the past, what matters is the games now.

No, for fücks sake. Stats after Torres' injury don't matter when talking about Keane and Torres gelling together on the pitch, cos Torres isn't on the pitch.

OBVIOUSLY, now that Torres is fit and if Rafa play's them up top together, it'll matter.

How can we talk about a Torres/Keane partnership forming (or not as the case may be) when one's been injured and they aren't playing together?

You mean the bitters game where the bluesh1te were so poor that we didn't have to play that well to beat them? Or maybe the PSV game where they were so poor that we didn't have to play that well to beat them either? Thereafter began this "spell that doesn't count" since Keane was sub in the Citeh game and missed the next six.

So on the basis of TWO games they were gelling? Ballacks. They've shown a few glimpses of gelling, but Torres is quality and so inevitably some inter-passing is bound to work.

Of course we've played one up front for quite a few games recently and lost only the games against spudz, the first of which we should have finished off and the other being the reserves. Although Keane didn't play brilliantly against Bolton, and scored good goals against WBA, the system of one up front has been working. I'd say in some respects it is better because it allows Kuyt that little bit more freedom to push into very advanced positions from the right. It also means we have Gerrard supporting the front man and he's a definite threat in that role.

Next answer to everything tonyeh, I can see you are going to defend Keane to the death despite claims you don't love him just because you called him a gobsh1te once


Rafa should continue with the one up front system since Keane and Torres have shown little signs of gelling and the team has been quietly effective with one up front. As for suggestion there is no goal threat with one up front - poppycock. Torres scored 18 goals in 23 games second half of last season and a lot of them played alone up front. Liverpool won 13 of their last 19 games last season and a number of those were in the then new one up front system. Gerrard scores and Kuyt scores. The problem is Gerrard is slightly less advance playing 4-4-2 and Keane is no more likely to score than Gerrard, so having two non-gelling strikers of whom one hasn't hit top form yet and the other can't even hit the target half the time, is hardly going to make us more prolific with goals.

I actually agree with the gist of your post Owzat.

But feel that you're coming accross a tad harsh on Keane here, ever since the 20 million pound from Spurs you've almost come accross as 'having it in for him' in the same way you did with Crouch. Dont dismiss miss Evertons "poor perfomance" or PSV's to make your point about Keane, to emphasise your critic of him as you did with Crouch.

Like I said I agree with the notion of playing one upfront simply because we look better imo with that formation at the moment. It doesnt really have a lot to do with Keane why I'd go with that formation. But if he was in blistering form then I'd be tempted to see a partnership work. But in the 4-5-1 formation I like the way Kuyt and Gerrard operate, Rieras consistency and having the insurance of Alonso and Mascha.