Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:56 pm

This thread has meandered into fantasy land with the same person as usual at the helm of the dreamers ship. I knew it was a mistake to take the brick off the lid.

Anyway, back to reality. Kuyt played well against PSV Eindhoven, FWIW I also think he did pretty well against Everton. He scored a goal against PSV, which is peachy. A couple of people (you know who :laugh:

) have made the point that it doesn't really matter how he scored it, it's the fact that he scored it that counts. Bizarrely, I couldn't agree more. It's not his fault the goalie should have saved it, a goal is a goal is a goal and that's "all that matters". I'm bound to ask then as it got mentioned earlier about the "monkey on his back" of a Premiership goal, when is anybody betting on him getting one? I think he's gone is it 27 games without scoring one now, this despite rarely being substituted and often switching into the centre should he be needed.

I recall the escapee telling us that "he got two against Everton" whilst omitting to mention the fact that they were both penalties. I'm not saying it didn't take bottle to take them, it did, but I would be curious to find out if you don't count the two penalties, how many he has scored from open play in his last season worth of games in the league? Suddenly the "goals are all that matters" argument doesn't hold up so well I shouldn't think

Anyway, sigh.

Look we have the same situation here as we had with Xabi Alonso or with Rafa, or with rotation. So vehement is the defence of Kuyt, so vociferous the attempts to shout down and ridicule any dissenting voices, so unrealistic the proclomations of his ability, that we lose sight of what we are actually talking about here. This is precisely what creates factions on the boards. We've seen Kuyt in the last ten days vociferously defended against Dimitar Berbatov in terms of football ability ("simple question, is he a better footballer or not"). We've seen him compared with Wayne Rooney who also apparently just works up and down the line same as Dirk, favourably compared with Sammy Lee (who just ran around a lot), and now he's being compared with Gerrard. I just wonder if people actually believe what they write, or they just wack it down in order to emphasise "where they stand", or show loyalty to a player.

We all know he works hard. We all know he didn't cut it as a striker but by sheer endeavour, determination and application he has made himself into kind of a right sided midfielder. Fantastic, and good luck to a bloke who by all accounts is a bit of a diamond. As a right midfielder, for him, he is playing very well right now. I actually think he is playing just about as well as I have ever seen him. Out of the people we have who can play right midfield, he is apart from the captain easily the best bet in my opinion. Benayoun isn't even close, and Pennant though having ability is to all intents and purposes a doughnut lets be honest. So all is good in the Dirk Kuyt World. Just to repeat and emphasise, GIVEN THE PLAYERS AT OUR DISPOSAL, IF THE CAPTAIN ISN'T GOING TO PLAY THERE, KUYT IS OUR BEST BET. There, I'm not a disgrace (well not on this subject anyway), I'm not slagging him off, I'm trying to have a sensible discussion.

Please though, lets just calm down and stop with the silly comparisons. Lets leave out the ridiculous overstating of a performance and the over zealous defence of sensible football points which are raised on a discussion forum. Of course it's correct that a "headless chicken" approach to closing people down is dangerous for a wide midfield player. It's Ok for a striker to hare around like a madman, but a midfield player has to help keep the shape of the team. The argument is whether or not Kuyt predjudices that, not whether or not the concept has validity, of course it does. The concern that perhaps a title winning team will need a better footballer on right midfield is also a sensible one. Doesn't mean you have to agree with it, but it's a realistic worry at the very least.

probably by bhis own admission Peewee has been overly dogmatic re Kuyt, hence the reason for starting a "peace" thread regarding Kuyt. A little bit like my "calm" thread though, they do descend eventually. It would be good though if people could just sensibly debate the points on both sides. If at the end of the day there is somebody with whom it is impossible to debate sensibly, just give them the swerve. I've been on the forum four years and only once has this occurred, needless to say it was whilst discussing kuyt.

by **Leonmc0708** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:00 pm

bigmick wrote:GIVEN THE PLAYERS AT OUR DISPOSAL, IF THE CAPTAIN ISN'T GOING TO PLAY THERE, KUYT IS OUR BEST BET.

Your Rafa Benitez and I claim my five pounds.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:07 pm

You know, I'd like to think Rafa would go for Option A, I really would. It makes the most sense, of course: you've got a willing but limited tryer playing out of position at RM, the one 'problem position' you haven't splashed some cash to address in the summer. If there's money to spend, why wouldn't it be on a new RM?

That said, I can't shake the fact that Rafa places real value on Kuyt's workrate and wants him on the pitch somewhere. He's mostly proved to be short of the level required for a recurring role as second striker in a 4-4-2 (although he notably kept Crouch out of the team a lot) but I think Rafa's prepared to sacrifice some attacking verve at RM in order to get Dirk into the side. If that isn't the case, why does Kuyt play the full match virtually every match...even when we're having trouble breaking teams down? Why so few opportunities for Yossi or Babel to come on and run the flank that favours their stronger foot? Why has Pennant fallen so far out of favour that he doesn't even make the bench when it can hardly be disputed that he's our only true right winger? Surely if Rafa saw Kuyt as stop gap we'd see him subbed off more often or others given a shot to (re)claim the shirt? No, something in my gut tells me that any potential signing would have to have the right combination of workrate and attacking flair to make Rafa consider dropping Kuyt to the bench.

by **Leonmc0708** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:12 pm

Bad Bob wrote:You know, I'd like to think Rafa would go for Option A, I really would. It makes the most sense, of course: you've got a willing but limited tryer playing out of position at RM, the one 'problem position' you haven't splashed some cash to address in the summer. If there's money to spend, why wouldn't it be on a new RM?

That said, I can't shake the fact that Rafa places real value on Kuyt's workrate and wants him on the pitch somewhere. He's mostly proved to be short of the level required for a recurring role as second striker in a 4-4-2 (although he notably kept Crouch out of the team a lot) but I think Rafa's prepared to sacrifice some attacking verve at RM in order to get Dirk into the side. If that isn't the case, why does Kuyt play the full match virtually every match...even when we're having trouble breaking teams down? Why so few opportunities for Yossi or Babel to come on and run the flank that favours their stronger foot? Why has Pennant fallen so far out of favour that he doesn't even make the bench when it can hardly be disputed that he's our only true right winger? Surely if Rafa saw Kuyt as stop gap we'd see him subbed off more often or others given a shot to (re)claim the shirt? No, something in my gut tells me that any potential signing would have to have the right combination of workrate and attacking flair to make Rafa consider dropping Kuyt to the bench.

I am not sure we lose attacking verve though mate.

He holds it well and bring others into play, you dont have to whip a cross into the box aimlessley (see Pennant) to attack from the right hand side.

by **Effes** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:12 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:
bigmick wrote:GIVEN THE PLAYERS AT OUR DISPOSAL, IF THE CAPTAIN ISN'T GOING TO PLAY THERE, KUYT IS OUR BEST BET.

Your Rafa Benitez and I claim my five pounds.

Kofi Annan mate - spotted that ages ago

by **Leonmc0708** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:14 pm

Effes wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
bigmick wrote:GIVEN THE PLAYERS AT OUR DISPOSAL, IF THE CAPTAIN ISN'T GOING TO PLAY THERE, KUYT IS OUR BEST BET.

Your Rafa Benitez and I claim my five pounds.

Kofi Annan mate - spotted that ages ago

MAte ?

You just said I was n obsessively cr.ap moderator - make yer mind up will yer.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:28 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:You know, I'd like to think Rafa would go for Option A, I really would. It makes the most sense, of course: you've got a willing but limited tryer playing out of position at RM, the one 'problem position' you haven't splashed some cash to address in the summer. If there's money to spend, why wouldn't it be on a new RM?

That said, I can't shake the fact that Rafa places real value on Kuyt's workrate and wants him on the pitch somewhere. He's mostly proved to be short of the level required for a recurring role as second striker in a 4-4-2 (although he notably kept Crouch out of the team a lot) but I think Rafa's prepared to sacrifice some attacking verve at RM in order to get Dirk into the side. If that isn't the case, why does Kuyt play the full match virtually every match...even when we're having trouble breaking teams down? Why so few opportunities for Yossi or Babel to come on and run the flank that favours their stronger foot? Why has Pennant fallen so far out of favour that he doesn't even make the bench when it can hardly be disputed that he's our only true right winger? Surely if Rafa saw Kuyt as stop gap we'd see him subbed off more often or others given a shot to (re)claim the shirt? No, something in my gut tells me that any potential signing would have to have the right combination of workrate and attacking flair to make Rafa consider dropping Kuyt to the bench.

I am not sure we lose attacking verve though mate.

He holds it well and bring others into play, you dont have to whip a cross into the box aimlessley (see Pennant) to attack from the right hand side.

No, I agree, crossing is not the be all and end all. It is an important part of the skill-set, though, and I don't think Kuyt is consistently good enough at it (much like Riise wasn't as a LM). More worrying for me from an attacking point of view is the way some moves tend to slow down when they go through Kuyt down the flank, largely because he rarely has the guile and pace to beat a fullback. More often than not he does as you say and holds the ball up, playing it back to Arbeloa or square to a midfielder or Keane dropping off. That's good smart possession football much of the time but sometimes, especially when we've got numbers in our favour, I'd would be great to see him look to beat his marker and drive to the byline. Not his forte, I grant you, and so I understand his reluctance but that's one of the key reasons that he's not an ideal long-term solution at RM.

by **Leonmc0708** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:40 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:You know, I'd like to think Rafa would go for Option A, I really would. It makes the most sense, of course: you've got a willing but limited tryer playing out of position at RM, the one 'problem position' you haven't splashed some cash to address in the summer. If there's money to spend, why wouldn't it be on a new RM?

That said, I can't shake the fact that Rafa places real value on Kuyt's workrate and wants him on the pitch somewhere. He's mostly proved to be short of the level required for a recurring role as second striker in a 4-4-2 (although he notably kept Crouch out of the team a lot) but I think Rafa's prepared to sacrifice some attacking verve at RM in order to get Dirk into the side. If that isn't the case, why does Kuyt play the full match virtually every match...even when we're having trouble breaking teams down? Why so few opportunities for Yossi or Babel to come on and run the flank that favours their stronger foot? Why has Pennant fallen so far out of favour that he doesn't even make the bench when it can hardly be disputed that he's our only true right winger? Surely if Rafa saw Kuyt as stop gap we'd see him subbed off more often or others given a shot to (re)claim the shirt? No, something in my gut tells me that any potential signing would have to have the right combination of workrate and attacking flair to make Rafa consider dropping Kuyt to the bench.

I am not sure we lose attacking verve though mate.

He holds it well and bring others into play, you dont have to whip a cross into the box aimlessley (see Pennant) to attack from the right hand side.

No, I agree, crossing is not the be all and end all. It is an important part of the skill-set, though, and I don't think Kuyt is consistently good enough at it (much like Riise wasn't as a LM). More worrying for me from an attacking point of view is the way some moves tend to slow down when they go through Kuyt down the flank, largely because he rarely has the guile and pace to beat a fullback. More often than not he does as you say and holds the ball up, playing it back to Arbeloa or square to a midfielder or Keane dropping off. That's good smart possession football much of the time but sometimes, especially when we've got numbers in our favour, I'd would be great to see him look to beat his marker and drive to the byline. Not his forte, I grant you, and so I understand his reluctance but that's one of the key reasons that he's not an ideal long-term solution at RM.

We dont have sttackers to attack crosses in the air though mate.

We have players who like it into feet, behind the full backs and down the channels. Kuyt can do hat.

I am not saying he is the long term solution, however I dont feel he is average/cr.ap/shi.te/garbage (*delete where appropirate) as some people say.

IF Kuyt is our wekest link (not in my opinion, as for me its the full backs) then we have a pretty strong unit. Add Babel to the mix (again not ideal at right wing but extremely effective) and occasionaly Keane and I dont think its time to start slating the team, saying we are not good enough and brining out the old happy clappers lines.

by **Igor Zidane** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:56 pm

Jimmy the Weasel wrote:
Igor Zidane wrote:
Jimmy the Weasel wrote:
Igor Zidane wrote:
Jimmy the Weasel wrote:
Lee J wrote:blame him for what? playing a player that puts in a solid reliable performance, scores a goal and creates another?

jeez you people are not getting it are you?

Right side of a front 3 he does a job.

Right side of midfield he is terrible.

So if you think that, then who is at fault?

Your at fault mate , for finding fault ,where the is none at the minute .

You worry far to much.......

My at fault? What does that mean?

I said IF you think that. You clearly don't, but IF you did think that, whose fault is it that he's terrible at right midfield?

I worry about the mancs overtaking our record. Do you not?

It's only a debate , were winning ,playing better by the game , we look more balanced , what's the problem . What part of the season are we at , come back to me after chrimbo and we'll debate then about the mancs catching up , until then enjoy the ride and worry a little bit less ,you'll live longer i promise.

Cool, I won't expect any new posts from you til then eh?

In the meantime perhaps spend some time not being a patronising idiot and maybe go and work on your grammar.

I like it , and grammar has never been a strong point of mine . When you get to my age ace , you tend not to give a :censored:

really . Heyho ,one more poster to bring a bit of optimism then , or is it realism ,i forget.

Is my grammar still bad , or are you worried about that aswell.

by **Jimmy the Weasel** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:44 pm

Igor Zidane wrote:
Jimmy the Weasel wrote:
Igor Zidane wrote:
Jimmy the Weasel wrote:
Igor Zidane wrote:
Jimmy the Weasel wrote:
Lee J wrote:blame him for what? playing a player that puts in a solid reliable performance, scores a goal and creates another?

jeez you people are not getting it are you?

Right side of a front 3 he does a job.

Right side of midfield he is terrible.

So if you think that, then who is at fault?

Your at fault mate , for finding fault ,where the is none at the minute .

You worry far to much.......

My at fault? What does that mean?

I said IF you think that. You clearly don't, but IF you did think that, whose fault is it that he's terrible at right midfield?

I worry about the mancs overtaking our record. Do you not?

It's only a debate , were winning ,playing better by the game , we look more balanced , what's the problem . What part of the season are we at , come back to me after chrimbo and we'll debate then about the mancs catching up , until then enjoy the ride and worry a little bit less ,you'll live longer i promise.

Cool, I won't expect any new posts from you til then eh?

In the meantime perhaps spend some time not being a patronising idiot and maybe go and work on your grammar.

I like it , and grammar has never been a strong point of mine . When you get to my age ace , you tend not to give a really . Heyho ,one more poster to bring a bit of optimism then , or is it realism ,i forget.

Is my grammar still bad , or are you worried about that aswell.

Doesn't worry me one bit fella... I don't mock the ill-educated.

As for the realism / optimism :censored:

you're talking about, perhaps you're just another plank painting me with the same brush as everyone.

No wonder there are posts everywhere about people leaving with posts like that to newcomers with the temerity to have opinions contrary to your own.

by **NANNY RED** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:08 pm

Oh dont

start again

by **Kharhaz** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:10 pm

NANNY RED wrote:Oh dont start again

by **Effes** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:59 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:
Effes wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
peewee wrote:is 1988 the year you was born mate? I had been going the game for 15 years by that point. I earned my stripes mate and its things like this that pretty much allows me to have an opinion and to air it.

Please !

Leon, you seem to goout of your way to have a snipe at peewee.

Mods should attain some kind of neurality on here - you don't.

It's becoming obssessional.

I will pull anyone up who talks such condescending bullsh.it mate.

Lines like I was goign the game before you where born are a joke.

Leonmc0708 wrote:MAte ?

You just said I was n obsessively cr.ap moderator - make yer mind up will yer.

You feckin started it!

by **Fo Dne** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:29 am

GYBS wrote:
Yooj Bigullz wrote:
GYBS wrote:then you need to look back thru some of the threads where i have pointed out the limitations i think kuyt has . Yes i do defend cause i think he does a good and very underrated job for us and doesnt get the credit he deserves and instead just gets constantly slagged off . If i think he doesnt deserve to play or shouldnt play then i will say so . Hence why i said he shouldnt of really played against stoke but was perfect for derby and last night

For the third and final time, I'm not searching through pages and pages of old threads, certainly not for the odd post where you've put your sexual attraction to Dirk aside, and have offered some mild critique

Let's draw a line under it, eh? I'm guessing anyone else might be bored to tears reading the same thing over and over

dont accuse me of stuff then without actually coming up with proof of this overstating and pedastal you keep talking about . And yeah people are getting bored off people constantly slagging off a player who continues to contribute to the team in a positive way and getting no credit for it at all . Ie a witch hunt on the player . Who be great just one of these days for one of those posters to actually hold their hands up and say yeah kuyt did well then and played a big part in the victory .

Why do you think we want the player out of the side?

Don't you think its strange how don't want Alonso, Gerrard, Riera, Keane, Carragher, Reina etc out of the team?

Do you think that it could possibly be due to him being a weak link he gets the critisism?

by **Kharhaz** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:39 am

Fo Dne wrote:
GYBS wrote:
Yooj Bigullz wrote:
GYBS wrote:then you need to look back thru some of the threads where i have pointed out the limitations i think kuyt has . Yes i do defend cause i think he does a good and very underrated job for us and doesnt get the credit he deserves and instead just gets constantly slagged off . If i think he doesnt deserve to play or shouldnt play then i will say so . Hence why i said he shouldnt of really played against stoke but was perfect for derby and last night

For the third and final time, I'm not searching through pages and pages of old threads, certainly not for the odd post where you've put your sexual attraction to Dirk aside, and have offered some mild critique

Let's draw a line under it, eh? I'm guessing anyone else might be bored to tears reading the same thing over and over

dont accuse me of stuff then without actually coming up with proof of this overstating and pedastal you keep talking about . And yeah people are getting bored off people constantly slagging off a player who continues to contribute to the team in a positive way and getting no credit for it at all . Ie a witch hunt on the player . Who be great just one of these days for one of those posters to actually hold their hands up and say yeah kuyt did well then and played a big part in the victory .

Why do you think we want the player out of the side?

Don't you think its strange how don't want Alonso, Gerrard, Riera, Keane, Carragher, Reina etc out of the team?

Do you think that it could possibly be due to him being a weak link he gets the critisism?

Thats where the arguments arise. Not everyone does want him out of the team. The only move a majority would accept is if Gerrard is moved to the right. A player of Gerrards quality would be acceptable but unless Kuyt gets injured then that wont happen. And im quite happy for Kuyt to continue playing there. Okay, he doesnt have as much skill as other wingers but lets look at Kuyt for what he is. Take the stoke match. The balls were being pinged in from the wings and fullbacks and it was all pointless, there defenders kept knocking them away. Kuyt had the sense to stop doing that and get in the area to the byline and create something that way. Out of all the players, Kuyt has the energy and can seem to run forever, and he does. And in that I appreciate it. Yes, at times he lets himself down, but name any other player for Liverpool who doesnt. Riera has looked good on the left, but not even he has played every game a blinder, or even good enough. He offers the balance, but he hasnt lit up the premiership. Kuyt is unfashionable, but he gets the job done. Lets watch the matches more closely when Kuyt isnt involved, and see for ourselves the difference he does make.

Liverpool FC Forum

Dirk kuyt - Peace everyone

Who is online