Liverpool FC Forum

Bad Bob wrote:

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:I'll leave this debate where it is if somebody can justify the difference between this and Souness and Evans which I'll explain later on.

OK so Benitez is "a better manager" because he won the European Cup compared to Houllier's UEFA Cup. I don't believe that for one minute because on that theory Benitez is better manager than Shankly and Dalglish. But hey that's what people want to believe then all credit to them. But just like the European Cup is a bigger trophy than the UEFA, in England the FA Cup is bigger and more prestigious than than the League Cup. However Graeme Souness gets absolouted slaughtered and Roy Evans gets held as playing the best football Liverpool have seen in the last 15 years. So despite Souness winning a bigger and more prestigious trophy than Evans, Evans in people's eyes is the better manager and people think it's me who contradicts himself.

Benitez is a better manager than Houllier because he won a bigger trophy.
Evans is a better manager than Souness despite Souness winning the bigger trophy.

Can someone justify how that's the case. I can say Souness isn't as good a manger because I don't base my judgement on the prestige of a trophy like most on here are doing. But for people to claim Evans is the better manager than slag Houllier off for not winning as big a trophy as Benitez is total bollox and a huge contradiction.

People aren't slagging Houlier off for winning a smaller trophy than Benitez, they're slagging you off for not acknowledging that winning the Champions League is a bigger achievement than winning the UEFA Cup.

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:I'll leave this debate where it is if somebody can justify the difference between this and Souness and Evans which I'll explain later on.

OK so Benitez is "a better manager" because he won the European Cup compared to Houllier's UEFA Cup. I don't believe that for one minute because on that theory Benitez is better manager than Shankly and Dalglish. But hey that's what people want to believe then all credit to them. But just like the European Cup is a bigger trophy than the UEFA, in England the FA Cup is bigger and more prestigious than than the League Cup. However Graeme Souness gets absolouted slaughtered and Roy Evans gets held as playing the best football Liverpool have seen in the last 15 years. So despite Souness winning a bigger and more prestigious trophy than Evans, Evans in people's eyes is the better manager and people think it's me who contradicts himself.

Benitez is a better manager than Houllier because he won a bigger trophy.
Evans is a better manager than Souness despite Souness winning the bigger trophy.

Can someone justify how that's the case. I can say Souness isn't as good a manger because I don't base my judgement on the prestige of a trophy like most on here are doing. But for people to claim Evans is the better manager than slag Houllier off for not winning as big a trophy as Benitez is total bollox and a huge contradiction.

Bad Bob wrote:

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:I'm not denying it's a bigger achievement Bob, but people are shrugging off the UEFA Cup like it didn't matter.

But the difference between the two wasn't as big as people like to make out either. We were still fighting for the FA Cup as well as the UEFA in 01 and won both along with the league cup which Benitez actually lost, so come the final months of the season Benitez only had one trophy to go for because he gave up on the league in 05 well before Christmas.

So you're not denying that anymore eh, mate?   Wasn't too long ago you were saying they were basically equivalent.

Moving on, whilst I'll give Houllier credit for successfully navigating the simultaneous UEFA and FA Cup runs, I reject the associated implication that Benitez somehow had it easy because he was only going for the CL in 2005.  Sometimes, John, you make it sound as though anyone could have won us the CL that season.  Houllier, apparently, provided all the players (except, of course, Alonso and Garcia) and Rafa apparently had the luxury of just focusing on Europe.  Put the two together, stir in a little luck and player brilliance in the final and, presto, the cup just lands in Rafa's lap, right?   Truth is, Houllier didn't even come close to winning that trophy with the same players at his disposal, so Rafa deserves a lot more credit for that achievement then he's been getting around here of late.

Finally, I even more strongly reject this nonsense that Benitez somehow "gave up" on the league before Christmas.  This seems to be a popular tack amongst Rafa-bashers of late--dismiss the man as somehow disinterested in the league.  Absolute and utter bollox as far as I'm concerned.  You can dispute his methods all you want.  You might even be able to dispute his priorities on certain occasions when the two competitions pull him in opposite directions.  But I don't think it's even remotely reasonable to dispute his desire to succeed in the league.  It's a cheap shot towards a man that has demonstrated his commitment to this club time and again, it's got no basis in fact (and, no, admitting to the press that he finds the CL easier to prepare for is not an admission that he doesn't care about the league) and, it's not necessary.  There's plenty of ammunition in terms of his tactics for those that want rid of him to use in order to make their case.   No need to make him out to be some no mark foreigner who's taking the p!ss out of title-hungry fans at every turn.

They are equivilant Bob or do you get to two super cup finals for winning the European Cup or do you get two medals for winning the European Cup. It's a bigger achievement because it holds more presitge, but it's still equivilant in terms of what you win. ONE trophy.

Next it was more difficult to go for and win both FA Cup and UEFA Cup glory. Two trophies are always more difficult to win than one. But I will say here that I'll credit Benitez for every little thing that he has achieved at this club and that includes the success of Istanbul. I'm not, as some assume, on a whitch hunt for Benitez. I think he's worked wonders at times and there's not many managers in the history of football who could of won us the European Cup in the same time scale and with the same players Benitez did. For that he deserves credit, because although it's the players who go out and perform they can only perform to the tactics that he sets. For the best part of every game in europe he got it spot on it 2004-05.

I will however disagree (again ) that he didn't give up on the league. Maybe before Christmas is a bit harsh from my side but continuiouslly picking Pelligrino for the league while leaving Hyypia for Europe is IMO giving up on the league. I know it was a very injury hit year, in fact we didn't have a fully fit squad from October onwards, but he still put Europe first that season. I'm not saying he always does it although I do think he's done it a few times, but lets just say by mid January then, I'll move it on a fornight, he'd given up on the league. He even gave up on the FA Cup (nothing to do with Europe because Leverkusen came around four weeks after Burnley) but he still couldn't give a monkey's toss about the FA Cup in his first year.

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:I will however disagree (again ) that he didn't give up on the league. Maybe before Christmas is a bit harsh from my side but continuiouslly picking Pelligrino for the league while leaving Hyypia for Europe is IMO giving up on the league. I know it was a very injury hit year, in fact we didn't have a fully fit squad from October onwards, but he still put Europe first that season. I'm not saying he always does it although I do think he's done it a few times, but lets just say by mid January then, I'll move it on a fornight, he'd given up on the league. He even gave up on the FA Cup (nothing to do with Europe because Leverkusen came around four weeks after Burnley) but he still couldn't give a monkey's toss about the FA Cup in his first year.

LFC2007 wrote:or perhaps: GBJH's wonderful world of bullshit.

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:

Bad Bob wrote:

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:I'm not denying it's a bigger achievement Bob, but people are shrugging off the UEFA Cup like it didn't matter.

But the difference between the two wasn't as big as people like to make out either. We were still fighting for the FA Cup as well as the UEFA in 01 and won both along with the league cup which Benitez actually lost, so come the final months of the season Benitez only had one trophy to go for because he gave up on the league in 05 well before Christmas.

So you're not denying that anymore eh, mate?   Wasn't too long ago you were saying they were basically equivalent.

Moving on, whilst I'll give Houllier credit for successfully navigating the simultaneous UEFA and FA Cup runs, I reject the associated implication that Benitez somehow had it easy because he was only going for the CL in 2005.  Sometimes, John, you make it sound as though anyone could have won us the CL that season.  Houllier, apparently, provided all the players (except, of course, Alonso and Garcia) and Rafa apparently had the luxury of just focusing on Europe.  Put the two together, stir in a little luck and player brilliance in the final and, presto, the cup just lands in Rafa's lap, right?   Truth is, Houllier didn't even come close to winning that trophy with the same players at his disposal, so Rafa deserves a lot more credit for that achievement then he's been getting around here of late.

Finally, I even more strongly reject this nonsense that Benitez somehow "gave up" on the league before Christmas.  This seems to be a popular tack amongst Rafa-bashers of late--dismiss the man as somehow disinterested in the league.  Absolute and utter bollox as far as I'm concerned.  You can dispute his methods all you want.  You might even be able to dispute his priorities on certain occasions when the two competitions pull him in opposite directions.  But I don't think it's even remotely reasonable to dispute his desire to succeed in the league.  It's a cheap shot towards a man that has demonstrated his commitment to this club time and again, it's got no basis in fact (and, no, admitting to the press that he finds the CL easier to prepare for is not an admission that he doesn't care about the league) and, it's not necessary.  There's plenty of ammunition in terms of his tactics for those that want rid of him to use in order to make their case.   No need to make him out to be some no mark foreigner who's taking the p!ss out of title-hungry fans at every turn.

They are equivilant Bob or do you get to two super cup finals for winning the European Cup or do you get two medals for winning the European Cup. It's a bigger achievement because it holds more presitge, but it's still equivilant in terms of what you win. ONE trophy.

Next it was more difficult to go for and win both FA Cup and UEFA Cup glory. Two trophies are always more difficult to win than one. But I will say here that I'll credit Benitez for every little thing that he has achieved at this club and that includes the success of Istanbul. I'm not, as some assume, on a whitch hunt for Benitez. I think he's worked wonders at times and there's not many managers in the history of football who could of won us the European Cup in the same time scale and with the same players Benitez did. For that he deserves credit, because although it's the players who go out and perform they can only perform to the tactics that he sets. For the best part of every game in europe he got it spot on it 2004-05.

I will however disagree (again ) that he didn't give up on the league. Maybe before Christmas is a bit harsh from my side but continuiouslly picking Pelligrino for the league while leaving Hyypia for Europe is IMO giving up on the league. I know it was a very injury hit year, in fact we didn't have a fully fit squad from October onwards, but he still put Europe first that season. I'm not saying he always does it although I do think he's done it a few times, but lets just say by mid January then, I'll move it on a fornight, he'd given up on the league. He even gave up on the FA Cup (nothing to do with Europe because Leverkusen came around four weeks after Burnley) but he still couldn't give a monkey's toss about the FA Cup in his first year.