Liverpool FC Forum

[god_bless_john_houlding]

I'm not denying it's a bigger achievement Bob, but people are shrugging off the UEFA Cup like it didn't matter.

But the difference between the two wasn't as big as people like to make out either. We were still fighting for the FA Cup as well as the UEFA in 01 and won both along with the league cup which Benitez actually lost, so come the final months of the season Benitez only had one trophy to go for because he gave up on the league in 05 well before Christmas.

So you're not denying that anymore eh, mate?   Wasn't too long ago you were saying they were basically equivalent.

Moving on, whilst I'll give Houllier credit for successfully navigating the simultaneous UEFA and FA Cup runs, I reject the associated implication that Benitez somehow had it easy because he was only going for the CL in 2005.  Sometimes, John, you make it sound as though anyone could have won us the CL that season.  Houllier, apparently, provided all the players (except, of course, Alonso and Garcia) and Rafa apparently had the luxury of just focusing on Europe.  Put the two together, stir in a little luck and player brilliance in the final and, presto, the cup just lands in Rafa's lap, right?   Truth is, Houllier didn't even come close to winning that trophy with the same players at his disposal, so Rafa deserves a lot more credit for that achievement then he's been getting around here of late.

Finally, I even more strongly reject this nonsense that Benitez somehow "gave up" on the league before Christmas.  This seems to be a popular tack amongst Rafa-bashers of late--dismiss the man as somehow disinterested in the league.  Absolute and utter bollox as far as I'm concerned.  You can dispute his methods all you want.  You might even be able to dispute his priorities on certain occasions when the two competitions pull him in opposite directions.  But I don't think it's even remotely reasonable to dispute his desire to succeed in the league.  It's a cheap shot towards a man that has demonstrated his commitment to this club time and again, it's got no basis in fact (and, no, admitting to the press that he finds the CL easier to prepare for is not an admission that he doesn't care about the league) and, it's not necessary.  There's plenty of ammunition in terms of his tactics for those that want rid of him to use in order to make their case.   No need to make him out to be some no mark foreigner who's taking the p!ss out of title-hungry fans at every turn.

They are equivilant Bob or do you get to two super cup finals for winning the European Cup or do you get two medals for winning the European Cup. It's a bigger achievement because it holds more presitge, but it's still equivilant in terms of what you win. ONE trophy.

Next it was more difficult to go for and win both FA Cup and UEFA Cup glory. Two trophies are always more difficult to win than one. But I will say here that I'll credit Benitez for every little thing that he has achieved at this club and that includes the success of Istanbul. I'm not, as some assume, on a whitch hunt for Benitez. I think he's worked wonders at times and there's not many managers in the history of football who could of won us the European Cup in the same time scale and with the same players Benitez did. For that he deserves credit, because although it's the players who go out and perform they can only perform to the tactics that he sets. For the best part of every game in europe he got it spot on it 2004-05.

I will however disagree (again ) that he didn't give up on the league. Maybe before Christmas is a bit harsh from my side but continuiouslly picking Pelligrino for the league while leaving Hyypia for Europe is IMO giving up on the league. I know it was a very injury hit year, in fact we didn't have a fully fit squad from October onwards, but he still put Europe first that season. I'm not saying he always does it although I do think he's done it a few times, but lets just say by mid January then, I'll move it on a fornight, he'd given up on the league. He even gave up on the FA Cup (nothing to do with Europe because Leverkusen came around four weeks after Burnley) but he still couldn't give a monkey's toss about the FA Cup in his first year.

i bet u were drunk when u typed everything.
so 2 trophies is harder then 1? if u wanna be calculative, ur right, but it also depends on the nature of the competition.
ok so meeting league champions and the best clubs in europe is easier? who did we beat along the way to winning the fa cup and who did we beat along the way to win the ECL?

We beat Rotherham, Leeds, Man City, Tranmere, Wycombe and Arsenal. But so what, you can only beat what's in front of you.

I wouldn't class Burnley or Barnsley as world beaters but they beat us in the same competition under Benitez. I'd class Barcelona, Roma and Porto better than Monaco but Monaco managed to beat us in 2004-05 under Benitez. Deportivo held us to a draw and Olympiakos scored their first ever goal on British soil against us and we were within 6 minutes of going out. Just like this season, one point from the opening three games in the European Cup. So is it any league format that he constantly up in? Scraping through against teams who are no better than the likes of Bolton or Newcastle.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

I will however disagree (again ) that he didn't give up on the league. Maybe before Christmas is a bit harsh from my side but continuiouslly picking Pelligrino for the league while leaving Hyypia for Europe is IMO giving up on the league. I know it was a very injury hit year, in fact we didn't have a fully fit squad from October onwards, but he still put Europe first that season. I'm not saying he always does it although I do think he's done it a few times, but lets just say by mid January then, I'll move it on a fornight, he'd given up on the league. He even gave up on the FA Cup (nothing to do with Europe because Leverkusen came around four weeks after Burnley) but he still couldn't give a monkey's toss about the FA Cup in his first year.

Okay, first off there was no chance in hell of us winning or, indeed, competing for the title in 04-05 given the state of the squad and the fact that it was Rafa's first season.  So, what would you rather see--Rafa give it a real go in the Champions League when it became clear that we had a shot or prioritize a league that we were never going to win?  You've lectured us all in the past about how 1st is first and second is nothing so why not focus on the competition that could get us silverware and let the league chips fall where they may?  And, frankly, I would have rather seen Pelligrino playing against the likes of Fulham than against the likes of Juventus!

And, again, this concept of "giving up" sticks in my craw.  There is a world of difference between being pragmatic and giving up--between using your squad in certain league matches and hoping for the best, and saying "The league?  Nah, I'm not a.rsed."  IMO, Rafa honestly believes that every team he sends out is capable of winning the match and his comments during the 05 run-in back that up--he was just as frustrated as we were that his squad wasn't doing the business.  I remember some of his interviews after those disappointing league matches in April and May.  He didn't sound like a man who had given up on anything.

I didn't say the league didn't bother him, but he wanted europe a whole lot more and that's why he concentrated solely on it. If he was that desperate to succeed in the league he wouldn't of allowed the team to finish 5th and behind Everton.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

GBJH's obsession with the league is unreal.

Well what do you expect...ah it's ok we're not winning the league this season, lets give Rafa a knighthood and pat him on the back. Is that what you want?

I grew up with the league being practically part of the furniture at Anfield and seeing us go a possible 18 years without it is far to long. Every true Liverpool fan is desperate for the league and if you think me obssession is a little to much well come down from Russia, stand on the Kop and listen to how many people feel the same way.

[Yari7]

John, would you mind if we finished fourth for the next 3 seasosn but reach the Champions League final in those 3 seasons?

[Big Niall]

The verdict

Souness - took over an aging but still good squad, changed too quickly with poor replacements and bad man management - terriible manager

Evans - took over a terrible squad, built a team that finished top 4 every season,challenged for the title, played good football, poor in Europe but so were all English teams,left the club in much better shape than when he took over. too soft though for the new celebrity footballer age - good (not great) manager

Houllier - slight improvement in league some years, worse others, spent big, terrible football, won in Europe against Spanish village team in division 2 of Europe (uefa), beat lower league club to win league cup at a time when top clubs didn't take it seriously, won luckiest FA cup ever thanks to Michael owen, Weren't a top club when he left, left the club in poor shape (financially too) - poor manager but better than Souness

Benitez - Won the Champions league with a poor enough team, qualified for CL every year, spent big but no closer to winning league, ridiculous rotation system ensures we'll never challenge for league, been the worst since Souness in terms of mounting a challenge for the league. Okay manager in England (excellent in Europe).

[Yari7]

The verdict

Souness - took over an aging but still good squad, changed too quickly with poor replacements and bad man management - terriible manager

Evans - took over a terrible squad, built a team that finished top 4 every season,challenged for the title, played good football, poor in Europe but so were all English teams,left the club in much better shape than when he took over. too soft though for the new celebrity footballer age - good (not great) manager

Houllier - slight improvement in league some years, worse others, spent big, terrible football, won in Europe against Spanish village team in division 2 of Europe (uefa), beat lower league club to win league cup at a time when top clubs didn't take it seriously, won luckiest FA cup ever thanks to Michael owen, Weren't a top club when he left, left the club in poor shape (financially too) - poor manager but better than Souness

Benitez - Won the Champions league with a poor enough team, qualified for CL every year, spent big but no closer to winning league, ridiculous rotation system ensures we'll never challenge for league, been the worst since Souness in terms of mounting a challenge for the league. Okay manager in England (excellent in Europe).

Well, considering Evans finshed 4th with Liverpool, Rafa has finished 3rd twice which is an imoprvement on Evans. So say he is the worst since Evans as Houlier has taken us closest.

Rafa took us to 2 champions League finals though. The Champions League is the biggest, most prestigous club competition in the world.

[Bad Bob]

I will however disagree (again ) that he didn't give up on the league. Maybe before Christmas is a bit harsh from my side but continuiouslly picking Pelligrino for the league while leaving Hyypia for Europe is IMO giving up on the league. I know it was a very injury hit year, in fact we didn't have a fully fit squad from October onwards, but he still put Europe first that season. I'm not saying he always does it although I do think he's done it a few times, but lets just say by mid January then, I'll move it on a fornight, he'd given up on the league. He even gave up on the FA Cup (nothing to do with Europe because Leverkusen came around four weeks after Burnley) but he still couldn't give a monkey's toss about the FA Cup in his first year.

Okay, first off there was no chance in hell of us winning or, indeed, competing for the title in 04-05 given the state of the squad and the fact that it was Rafa's first season.  So, what would you rather see--Rafa give it a real go in the Champions League when it became clear that we had a shot or prioritize a league that we were never going to win?  You've lectured us all in the past about how 1st is first and second is nothing so why not focus on the competition that could get us silverware and let the league chips fall where they may?  And, frankly, I would have rather seen Pelligrino playing against the likes of Fulham than against the likes of Juventus!

And, again, this concept of "giving up" sticks in my craw.  There is a world of difference between being pragmatic and giving up--between using your squad in certain league matches and hoping for the best, and saying "The league?  Nah, I'm not a.rsed."  IMO, Rafa honestly believes that every team he sends out is capable of winning the match and his comments during the 05 run-in back that up--he was just as frustrated as we were that his squad wasn't doing the business.  I remember some of his interviews after those disappointing league matches in April and May.  He didn't sound like a man who had given up on anything.

I didn't say the league didn't bother him, but he wanted europe a whole lot more and that's why he concentrated solely on it. If he was that desperate to succeed in the league he wouldn't of allowed the team to finish 5th and behind Everton.

I see--you are now classifying finishing fourth ahead of Everton as succeeding in the league.  I guess we're on course for another successful season at the moment then, aren't we?   

[god_bless_john_houlding]

I will however disagree (again ) that he didn't give up on the league. Maybe before Christmas is a bit harsh from my side but continuiouslly picking Pelligrino for the league while leaving Hyypia for Europe is IMO giving up on the league. I know it was a very injury hit year, in fact we didn't have a fully fit squad from October onwards, but he still put Europe first that season. I'm not saying he always does it although I do think he's done it a few times, but lets just say by mid January then, I'll move it on a fornight, he'd given up on the league. He even gave up on the FA Cup (nothing to do with Europe because Leverkusen came around four weeks after Burnley) but he still couldn't give a monkey's toss about the FA Cup in his first year.

Okay, first off there was no chance in hell of us winning or, indeed, competing for the title in 04-05 given the state of the squad and the fact that it was Rafa's first season.  So, what would you rather see--Rafa give it a real go in the Champions League when it became clear that we had a shot or prioritize a league that we were never going to win?  You've lectured us all in the past about how 1st is first and second is nothing so why not focus on the competition that could get us silverware and let the league chips fall where they may?  And, frankly, I would have rather seen Pelligrino playing against the likes of Fulham than against the likes of Juventus!

And, again, this concept of "giving up" sticks in my craw.  There is a world of difference between being pragmatic and giving up--between using your squad in certain league matches and hoping for the best, and saying "The league?  Nah, I'm not a.rsed."  IMO, Rafa honestly believes that every team he sends out is capable of winning the match and his comments during the 05 run-in back that up--he was just as frustrated as we were that his squad wasn't doing the business.  I remember some of his interviews after those disappointing league matches in April and May.  He didn't sound like a man who had given up on anything.

I didn't say the league didn't bother him, but he wanted europe a whole lot more and that's why he concentrated solely on it. If he was that desperate to succeed in the league he wouldn't of allowed the team to finish 5th and behind Everton.

I see--you are now classifying finishing fourth ahead of Everton as succeeding in the league.  I guess we're on course for another successful season at the moment then, aren't we?   

no bob you know perfectly well I don't class as finishing anything but first as success. so don't try and be smart it really doesn't suit you 

[god_bless_john_houlding]

John, would you mind if we finished fourth for the next 3 seasosn but reach the Champions League final in those 3 seasons?

Yes I would mind because it'd be another three years without a league title.

If the question was would I mind us going out of the champions league at the group stage for the next three years but win the league in each of those years then no I wouldn't mind.

Benitez has proven himself that he knows how to win matches in europe but that doesn't make him a great manager. If Benitez was our manager during the times before the champions league and it was just the european cup, then nobody on here would be able to stand Benitez because he wouldn't even be close to making europe's finest competition. Maybe that's why I don't class it as big as everyone else, because I still live by the theory that you have to earn you're way into the European Cup and finishing in the top four with Liverpool is no difficult task. Anybody in the world could get us into the top four, that's no achievement which is why I don't rate Benitez as highly as the rest. The european cup should go back to being the champions alone of each nation, in a straight draw, and we'd soon see how much of a genius Benitez is because he wouldn't even get us into the European Cup if that was the case.

Fortunately for him it isn't, so he looks like a genius.

[Bad Bob]

I will however disagree (again ) that he didn't give up on the league. Maybe before Christmas is a bit harsh from my side but continuiouslly picking Pelligrino for the league while leaving Hyypia for Europe is IMO giving up on the league. I know it was a very injury hit year, in fact we didn't have a fully fit squad from October onwards, but he still put Europe first that season. I'm not saying he always does it although I do think he's done it a few times, but lets just say by mid January then, I'll move it on a fornight, he'd given up on the league. He even gave up on the FA Cup (nothing to do with Europe because Leverkusen came around four weeks after Burnley) but he still couldn't give a monkey's toss about the FA Cup in his first year.

Okay, first off there was no chance in hell of us winning or, indeed, competing for the title in 04-05 given the state of the squad and the fact that it was Rafa's first season.  So, what would you rather see--Rafa give it a real go in the Champions League when it became clear that we had a shot or prioritize a league that we were never going to win?  You've lectured us all in the past about how 1st is first and second is nothing so why not focus on the competition that could get us silverware and let the league chips fall where they may?  And, frankly, I would have rather seen Pelligrino playing against the likes of Fulham than against the likes of Juventus!

And, again, this concept of "giving up" sticks in my craw.  There is a world of difference between being pragmatic and giving up--between using your squad in certain league matches and hoping for the best, and saying "The league?  Nah, I'm not a.rsed."  IMO, Rafa honestly believes that every team he sends out is capable of winning the match and his comments during the 05 run-in back that up--he was just as frustrated as we were that his squad wasn't doing the business.  I remember some of his interviews after those disappointing league matches in April and May.  He didn't sound like a man who had given up on anything.

I didn't say the league didn't bother him, but he wanted europe a whole lot more and that's why he concentrated solely on it. If he was that desperate to succeed in the league he wouldn't of allowed the team to finish 5th and behind Everton.

I see--you are now classifying finishing fourth ahead of Everton as succeeding in the league.  I guess we're on course for another successful season at the moment then, aren't we?   

no bob you know perfectly well I don't class as finishing anything but first as success. so don't try and be smart it really doesn't suit you 

Just thought I'd give you a taste of your own medicine with that one, John.  That's the kind of hair-splitting you excel at.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

I will however disagree (again ) that he didn't give up on the league. Maybe before Christmas is a bit harsh from my side but continuiouslly picking Pelligrino for the league while leaving Hyypia for Europe is IMO giving up on the league. I know it was a very injury hit year, in fact we didn't have a fully fit squad from October onwards, but he still put Europe first that season. I'm not saying he always does it although I do think he's done it a few times, but lets just say by mid January then, I'll move it on a fornight, he'd given up on the league. He even gave up on the FA Cup (nothing to do with Europe because Leverkusen came around four weeks after Burnley) but he still couldn't give a monkey's toss about the FA Cup in his first year.

Okay, first off there was no chance in hell of us winning or, indeed, competing for the title in 04-05 given the state of the squad and the fact that it was Rafa's first season.  So, what would you rather see--Rafa give it a real go in the Champions League when it became clear that we had a shot or prioritize a league that we were never going to win?  You've lectured us all in the past about how 1st is first and second is nothing so why not focus on the competition that could get us silverware and let the league chips fall where they may?  And, frankly, I would have rather seen Pelligrino playing against the likes of Fulham than against the likes of Juventus!

And, again, this concept of "giving up" sticks in my craw.  There is a world of difference between being pragmatic and giving up--between using your squad in certain league matches and hoping for the best, and saying "The league?  Nah, I'm not a.rsed."  IMO, Rafa honestly believes that every team he sends out is capable of winning the match and his comments during the 05 run-in back that up--he was just as frustrated as we were that his squad wasn't doing the business.  I remember some of his interviews after those disappointing league matches in April and May.  He didn't sound like a man who had given up on anything.

I didn't say the league didn't bother him, but he wanted europe a whole lot more and that's why he concentrated solely on it. If he was that desperate to succeed in the league he wouldn't of allowed the team to finish 5th and behind Everton.

I see--you are now classifying finishing fourth ahead of Everton as succeeding in the league.  I guess we're on course for another successful season at the moment then, aren't we?   

no bob you know perfectly well I don't class as finishing anything but first as success. so don't try and be smart it really doesn't suit you 

Just thought I'd give you a taste of your own medicine with that one, John.  That's the kind of hair-splitting you excel at.

exactly bob.........I excel at it.....not you, so don't try and take my mantle or I'll be forced into doing your moderator job 

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Just like to remind people that Mr Gary Johnson has taken his Bristol City top of the Championship again today with only five games left. West Brom in 4th do have two games in hand and are only four points behind, but none the less, still some achievement by Johnson and the Robins to be top of the league in their first season in the Championship.

1) Bristol City played 41 points 70
2) Stoke played 41 points 69
3) Hull played 41 points 68
4) WBA played 39 points 66
5) Watford played 40 points 65
6) Wolves played 40 points 61
------------------------------
7) Ipswich played 40 points 60

So Bristol City look almost certain to be in a playoff place at least in their first season in the Championship. With so few games to go, I still fancy them to come up automatically which obviosly means 1st or 2nd and if or rather when they do, I'll be singing the praises of Gary Johnson even more. Hopefully they can stay in the top flight next year if they make it.

[woof woof !]

And you need to remind us of Bristol City and their "achievements this season because ?    

[66-1112520797]

So considering this threa then, do I assume you'd like 'Mr Gary Johnson' to take over at LFC

[god_bless_john_houlding]

I've said, I rate Johnson highly and I think he's going to be a great manager. I think he could be a good manager for us.