Peter crouch - Unused sub, is he on his way?

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Peter crouch - Unused sub, is he on his way?

Yes, I reckon a deal's already done and he's off in January
10
8%
Yes, I reckon he will be offloaded next opportunity
31
26%
Yes, but not until we've signed a replacement
28
24%
Nope, he may not be flavour of the month but he's staying
47
39%
Nope, why sell our best striker? (keep a straight face)
3
3%
 
Total votes : 119

Postby oakton » Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:05 am

Scottbot wrote:Crouch as a player in my opinion.

POSITIVES

First Touch/Touch in general - Technically excellent, can kill a ball with snow on it with his chest and make it look easy. Has very quick feet, turns well and can get out of trouble in tight spaces with a party trick or two.

Intelligence - Fantastic team player, rarely gives the ball way, is aware of players around him, holds the ball up and brings the midfield  into play. Does a good job shielding the ball and draws a lot of fouls (Hamman style) He stays central (rarely will you see him run the channels) but his movement back and forwards is good and creates space for others e.g. when he comes short it usually creates some space in behind.

Heading - So many posters bang on about Crouch's heading ability (at goal) being poor but that shouldn't detract from the huge amount of flick-ons and bits and pieces the rest of the team feed off when Crouch is in the side. This part of his game is EXCELLENT.

Goals - He scores them! Not the most prolific but if he played 50 games in a season you would fancy him to get you 15-18 goals. And he can score them in just about every different way. He's scored a few tap-ins and scrappy goals (he should get a few more i agree), he's got a fair share with his head (for a guy who can't head the ball) and he is capable of scoring spectacular goals. Those two overhead kicks last season were fantastic and demonstrate that while he usually looks after the ball and plays it safe he is also unpredictable. He attacks the ball/crosses quite well, he's no robbie Fowler but he could certainly give Dirk a few lessons and he also strikes the ball well. And before i forget the lad has a Premiership hatrick (left, righ, header) against Arsenal.

Attitude - Consumate team player, gets on with it, loves playing for the club and deals with rotation (when he really should be in the side) admirably. He also plays the game with a bit of fire, i like to see forwards lose their rag, commit a few fouls and show a bit of passion and that's what you get with Crouch. Also his work-rate is excellent, like a liverpool strikers he does his bit to close down, harry and harrass the opposition.

Tactically - Opposition defences have to have a gameplan to deal with him, particularly in terms of 2nd phase balls (they don't have much chance with first phase) so they have to deal with flick-ons and his ability to bring the likes of Gerrard into play. Also, he is an EXCELLENT impact substitution (particularly in Europe) who can instantly alter the way we have been playing up until that point. He provides a focal point for our attack, especially if Torres is out. VERY IMPORTANT POINT WITH CROUCH IS THAT HE ALWAYS SHOWS FEET.

NEGATIVES

Lack of pace / Mobilty - The biggest thing against Crouch, quick as a milk float is our Peter! He'll never scare defenders when the ball is played over the top, he isn't particularly mobile and (for me) he is a bit of a sitting duck when he is played alone up-front. Not the type of player to drag defenders all over the show the way Drogba does at Chelsea plus he obviouly lacks Drogba's strength.

Goals/Performances Against Bigger Sides - Despite the Arsenal hatrick and the goal to put the mancs out of the FA Cup, Crouch hasn't really played his best against the top sides (same at International leve) and to use a cricketing term is a bit of a 'flat track bully'.

Missed Chances - He might get his share of goals but he's been guilty of missing just as many and then some (particularly with his head). His heading at goal isn't the best BUT it isn't as bad as some on here would have you believe.

Tactical - Unfortunately the temptation when Crouch is in the side is to bypass our midfield and simply try and stick it on his head. It's a useful out-ball to have but this is defo something for the manager and the likes of Sami/Carra (who are usually guilty) to rectify.

And on the subject of Crouch and Torres playing together, they should and could form a fantastic partership as far as i can see. Teams will get deeper and deeper with Torres in this vein of form so we would be crazy not to play Crouch. Because of his height defences don't particularly want Crouch in their penalty area. Get the ball into wide areas and put in a lot of crosses OR ping the ball into his feet (Gerrard) and try and play a few of those 1-2s.

There is a huge difference between what Crouch really is and the fantasy you are living in hoping what Crouch would be like.  My god you are overating him!

He is no way technically excellent, how often do you see him dribble past one player?  And his timing of the jump for a header is pretty pathetic in my opinion, he just wanna make contact with the ball on his head and he many times he has no idea where the ball will ended up.

Look he is not a bad player, but you are just overating him too much.
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Postby mungi » Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:56 am

crouch is a good squad player. he may not start as much  as other strikers but brings something different which the other strikers cannot offer.
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Postby Scottbot » Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:12 am

oakton wrote:There is a huge difference between what Crouch really is and the fantasy you are living in hoping what Crouch would be like.  My god you are overating him!

He is no way technically excellent, how often do you see him dribble past one player?  And his timing of the jump for a header is pretty pathetic in my opinion, he just wanna make contact with the ball on his head and he many times he has no idea where the ball will ended up.

Look he is not a bad player, but you are just overating him too much.

I meant to include dribbling/beating a man in the negatives bit (it was getting late!) and your right, he is never gonna run at players, beat 4 men and score a spectacular goal BUT that does not mean he isn't technically excellent. His touch/control is excellent, he strikes ball well and his passing his solid. That is what i mean when i refer to his technical ability. It doesn't translate to "can he skin people?"
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Postby Scottbot » Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:15 am

s@int wrote:Great post Scott but the one thing you didn't mention is the one that drives me to distraction........ the number of silly fouls he gives away when he challenges for the ball in the air. He has no need to commit so many fouls with his height advantages, and half the time I think he would win a foul himself if he would just learn to challenge without grabbing hold of a shirt all the time.

It's another good point, he does give away stupid fouls, a lot of them un-necessary but i would argue that he doesn't get a lot of protection from referees (the stuff Graham Poll had to say backs this up) and also, opposition HAVE to be very physical with him because of his height advantage and to be fair to Crouch, he gives as good as he gets.
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Postby metalhead » Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:01 am

ivor_the_injun wrote:
metalhead wrote:Crouch was sh*te today, everytime he is given a chance he plays like sh*te.

Why does this thread get bumped whenever Crouch has a poor game?

I don't see any Torres, Gerrard or Carragher threads bumped whenever they put in a poor performance. It really does do my nut that the guy has to seemingly put in an outstanding performance just to avoid criticism.

You are missing the point Ivor

I was merely pointing to the fact that when many of us ask for Crouch to be given a chance and when he is given that chance , he doesn't do well, Maybe because of lack of games or maybe he is not sharp enough.

IMO he should start next game against Reading, because kuyt and voronin aren't up to it.
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Postby bigmick » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:40 am

Scotts post is absolutely on the money for me and I agree with practically every word of it, aside from the bit about him attacking the ball well. I think he gets under the flight of it too often, hits the space in which he is going to head it way too early and makes himself too easy to mark/distract. I'd like to see him "arrive" at the point of impact, to have him meeting the ball at the end of a two stride burst so you get the snap of the header. Funnily enough Scott mentions his goal against the Mancs in the Fa Cup and it's a good example of what I'm on about. Hit the space as the ball gets there, don't be on the spot waiting for it.

I've said it before that Crouch could do a lot worse than watch a few videos of Niall Quinn. Like a lot of footballers, the big Irishman only really showed his true quality once he was almost past it, once he had thought about his game, realsied where he needed to go and what he needed to do to make himself difficult to play against. He made himself a formiddable opponent, and Crouch has the tools to be a much better player than Niall ever was. I just think that sometimes he doesn't really know what he is actually trying to do. Quinn didn't run the channels either, but he'd kind of play the reverse channel when the full-back had it. He'd show for the diagonal cross-field, win the header and drop it in for a midfileder who was attacking the space he'd just backed out of. From corners he'd back off, back off, then step in. Not a run from fifteen yards away (that's Sunday League stuff), but a back off then a step, and another then jump and snap, there's your power.

Many managers in the game like Crouch. I think it's because they can see he could be much better than he is. The paradox with him I guess is that you wonder whether a really top team could ever totally play to his strengths. Obviously a team like Villa or Everton would ping the diagonals all day long and make him a nightmare to play against. Whether you'd win Leagues and Champions Leagues that way though is another thing.

It's amazing to me though that him and Torres have only started up top together in one league game (last week). Perhaps if that "one" was "ten", then who knows we may even have the luxury of resting/rotating Torres occasionally, safe in the knowledge that we had somebody else who could score a goal as well.
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Postby Leonmc0708 » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:47 am

I would rather he put his head through one in the six yard box and burst the net than won a load of headers in the middle of the park where no fuc.ker seems to be able to read the flicks.

He has a neck made of chicken wire.
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Postby whylongball? » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:51 pm

Joe Cole was so skinny and look at him now. Benitez should force him into the gym more often. Grow big is easy. Grow tall is not
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Postby Leonmc0708 » Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:09 pm

whylongball? wrote:Joe Cole was so skinny and look at him now. Benitez should force him into the gym more often. Grow big is easy. Grow tall is not

IF only it worked on my inny liid.
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Postby Fowler_E7 » Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:12 pm

I find it strange that most people think that Crouch and Torres are the strongest strike partnership we have, considering that everytime they have played together Crouch has been distinctly average. I think that Kuyt (though clearly strullging scoring himself) links much better with Torres, as his movement is far superior to Crouch's.

I think Crouch should play as the lead striker when Torres is rested, not as his partner. Crouch is better at leading the line not being someones support man.

I think our attacking options should be one of these: (Torres, Kuyt) (Torres,Voronin(rubbish player IMO) (Crouch, Kuyt) (Crouch, Voronin)
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Postby stmichael » Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:31 pm

Scottbot wrote:
maguskwt wrote:he doesn't have the quick wit and vision to play with torres... if torres wants to play a one-two with crouch I bet they gonna fluff it...

That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Crouch can thread a pass if the opportunity is there, he's proved he can play in a 1-2 partnership and he has made plenty of goals in his career. As for playing 1-2s have you not watched Crouch and Gerrard play in the same side together? Countless times i have seen Gerrard ping a ball into Crouch, then charge on to receive (a usually) a perfectly weighted return ball before bursting into the box.

I think Torres is clever enough to make it work with Crouch. I noticed against Bolton that they were both playing high up the pitch in central positions so they were one-on-one with the centrebacks. Torres would then spin off his marker eg with his goal.

When Kuyt & Voronin play they drop deeper but that invariably leaves Torres with 2 markers.

Rafa has a plan for each opponent and sometimes it works best with the link striker, but on other occasions Crouch's presence gives Torres more space.

Our other option of course is to play a 4-3-3 with Alonso/Lucas, Mascherano & Gerrard in the middle and Kewell/Babel & Benayoun flanking Torres. That might work better against a really top side with 5 in the middle who will retain possession.
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Postby Scottbot » Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:35 am

bigmick wrote:Scotts post is absolutely on the money for me and I agree with practically every word of it, aside from the bit about him attacking the ball well. I think he gets under the flight of it too often, hits the space in which he is going to head it way too early and makes himself too easy to mark/distract. I'd like to see him "arrive" at the point of impact, to have him meeting the ball at the end of a two stride burst so you get the snap of the header. Funnily enough Scott mentions his goal against the Mancs in the Fa Cup and it's a good example of what I'm on about. Hit the space as the ball gets there, don't be on the spot waiting for it.

Spot on with that mate, he's no Les Ferdinand attacking the ball in the air is he! When i said he attacks the ball quite well i meant on the ground, he's scored his share of goals where the ball is fizzed across the box and he's managed to get a foot to the ball or he's slid in at the back post. Again, he's hardly Robbie Fowler but he's no Kuyt either in this respect.
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Postby Scottbot » Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:05 am

Fowler_E7 wrote:I find it strange that most people think that Crouch and Torres are the strongest strike partnership we have, considering that everytime they have played together Crouch has been distinctly average.

They've started two games together i believe (it might be three?). In those two games the team has scored 8 GOALS with Torres scoring 4, oh and we won both of those games. All this with Crouch having a poor game? Do defenders worry about Kuyt? "What we gonna do about Kuyt boss?", not a chance. Will they have a gameplan for Crouch? You can guarantee it, even when Torres is in the side.
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Postby Owzat » Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:24 am

Scottbot wrote:
Fowler_E7 wrote:I find it strange that most people think that Crouch and Torres are the strongest strike partnership we have, considering that everytime they have played together Crouch has been distinctly average.

They've started two games together i believe (it might be three?). In those two games the team has scored 8 GOALS with Torres scoring 4, oh and we won both of those games. All this with Crouch having a poor game? Do defenders worry about Kuyt? "What we gonna do about Kuyt boss?", not a chance. Will they have a gameplan for Crouch? You can guarantee it, even when Torres is in the side.

Games where both strikers played 60+ mins

Torres & Crouch (3 games)

Reading 2-4 Liverpool (Torres x3)
Liverpool 0-1 Marseille
Liverpool 4-0 Bolton (Torres x1)

P3 W2 D0 L1 F8 A3. Torres scores plenty alongside Crouch, but then the two sides beaten were hardly top notch

Torres & Kuyt (6 games)

Aston Villa 1-2 Liverpool
Liverpool 1-1 Chelsea (Torres x1)
Liverpool 6-0 Derby (Torres x2)
Porto 1-1 Liverpool (Kuyt x1)
Wigan 0-1 Liverpool
Newcastle 0-3 Liverpool (Kuyt x1)

P6 W4 D2 L0 F14 A3 - Torres and Kuyt scoring just 5 of the 14 goals, but if we're scoring 14 goals who cares?

Torres & Voronin (3 games)

Sunderland 0-2 Liverpool (Voronin x1)
Liverpool 2-2 Tottenham (Torres x1, Voronin x1)
Liverpool 4-1 Porto (Torres x2)

P3 W2 D1 L0 F8 A1. This pair seems to work, 8 goals scored in 3 games with Torres and Voronin scoring 5 of them.

Crouch & Voronin (4 games)

Toulouse 0-1 Liverpool (Voronin x1)
Portsmouth 0-0 Liverpool
Liverpool 8-0 Besiktas (Crouch x2)
Liverpool 2-0 Fulham

P4 W3 D1 L0 F11 A0. No goals conceded when they play together, only 3 of the 11 goals scored by them though

Crouch & Kuyt (1 game)

Liverpool 4-0 Toulouse (Crouch x1, Kuyt x2)

Surprisingly their only outing together. Crouch and Torres had 45 mins each with Kuyt and Voronin at home to Arsenal

Kuyt & Voronin (4 games)

Liverpool 0-0 Birmingham
Everton 1-2 Liverpool (Kuyt x2)
Besiktas 2-1 Liverpool
Liverpool 1-1 Arsenal

P4 W1 D2 L1 F4 A4. Not a pairing that produced many goals and just the one win in four games. This is why some fans are concerned our four strikers are not quite up to scratch, when one pairing or more isn't viable.


What worries me most is that no pair has played more than a third of the games as a pair, either because Rafa doesn't know his best strike pair or is too obsessed with rotation.

We've had too many draws this season, 7 in 23 matches. It wouldn't be so bad but 3 were 0-0, 3 were 1-1 and the other 2-2 against spudz who have not been great this season.
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Postby RedBlood » Sat Dec 08, 2007 1:32 pm

i thought for a while now torres and crouch would be our best bet

any defence would crack with them pair to deal with, two totally different players but both very eefective with great goal scoring records
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