Liverpool FC Forum

bigmick wrote:I like Crouch but it is 100% the perogative of the manager to freeze people out if he falls out with them/doesn't fancy them anyymore or whatever else. Given he's played 88 minutes in the League in 9 games, three of which the star striker didn't start in it amazes me a little bit that some people are intent on arguing that he's not been being frozen out but thats for them to explain and good luck to them Ferguson though has frozen many a player out in his time, some of whom have been far superior players to Crouch so I'm certainly not going to criticise the manager for that.

Where I would slightly take issue is the fact that we are now reduced to three strikers until January. Two of the three don't appear to me to be quite good enough and it may well be the case that if we come up short this season, it is this fact above all else which we will look back on as letting us down.

Rafa has been called a gambler recently rightly or wrongly, and I wouldn't criticise him for that either. Being a bit of a punter myself, I would be having a think about Babel or even maybe Lucas up top with one of the the other two while Torres is out. Even when Torres comes back, my hunchh is that neither Kuyt nor Voronin are going to quite good enough to help us to win the title.

I find your idea of Lucas playing support striker intriguing. He certainly took up a good position for his strike against Everton. He might be worth trying , he is Brazilian after all 

s@int wrote:

bigmick wrote:I like Crouch but it is 100% the perogative of the manager to freeze people out if he falls out with them/doesn't fancy them anyymore or whatever else. Given he's played 88 minutes in the League in 9 games, three of which the star striker didn't start in it amazes me a little bit that some people are intent on arguing that he's not been being frozen out but thats for them to explain and good luck to them Ferguson though has frozen many a player out in his time, some of whom have been far superior players to Crouch so I'm certainly not going to criticise the manager for that.

Where I would slightly take issue is the fact that we are now reduced to three strikers until January. Two of the three don't appear to me to be quite good enough and it may well be the case that if we come up short this season, it is this fact above all else which we will look back on as letting us down.

Rafa has been called a gambler recently rightly or wrongly, and I wouldn't criticise him for that either. Being a bit of a punter myself, I would be having a think about Babel or even maybe Lucas up top with one of the the other two while Torres is out. Even when Torres comes back, my hunchh is that neither Kuyt nor Voronin are going to quite good enough to help us to win the title.

I find your idea of Lucas playing support striker intriguing. He certainly took up a good position for his strike against Everton. He might be worth trying , he is Brazilian after all 

I'm not too sure playing Lucas off of Torres, he doesn't seem like a very attacking player to me and may restrict him from being what he is best at. Like stu said in other threads, a good idea is playing Benayoun off of Torres. IF we only had Luis Garcia, then there would be something to debate about

JohnBull wrote:Compete and Utter Crepe!!!

You harvest your facts to suit whatever indefensible crusade you've decided to go on. Raffa's decisions are there to be applauded or slagged, and just because some very poor decisions have fluked it, does not make them right.

When I see a team selection and end up holding my head in my hands it is not because I enjoy moaning about Raffa.
I really hoped that he was the one when he came but I can see no logical connection wth the way we are now and the Valencia side which enthralled me a few years ago. His team selection, the majority of his purchases, his inability to man-manage these Prima Donnas has me baffled.

I am not looking at the comeback of Xavi and Aggers as the second coming but if the absence of 2 players can cause this much of a drop in form them what is the value of this Super Sized Squad ?

When his name first came up on this form, some years ago, a couple of Valencia supporters posted good articles complementing Raffas. One of the most salient points was that Raffa was known to go on to the club forum and aknowledge the points raised, even to the extent of talking about changes he's made after considering points raised in the forum.

Do not get carried away with a long list of coaching qualifications, any nugget can pass these exams. It is the ability to use this knowledge in the real world that counts. Half of the truly great managers wouldn't get a job today because they didn't have the qualifications but they knew how to get the best out of players, whatever the player needed.

Just as any player can be substituted, despite there being a load of dross left on the pitch, then any manager can be called to account to justify his performance. Raffa is an awful long way from being untouchable and he'll have accept it.

And, once again, I cannot see an alternative to Raffa at the moment.

Lando_Griffin wrote:

Ace Ventura wrote:

Lando_Griffin wrote:You're obviously part of the privileged minority on here who actually has a brain.

I was going to apologise as i obviously didnt read or understand your post at the time i had replied, but yet again instead of just explaing you resort to being petty with snide comments.
Thinking about it i probably called it wrong at the time as its becoming the norm to read posts from you that are...Rafa is god and anyone who has any worries about what they are seeing this season and comments on it...they are idiots and havent got a clue..they havent got FA coaching badges blah blah blah.
Well Paul Jewell in a recent article was saying that coaching badges mean feck all...anyone can get them if they took them, a formality. All the managers in the premiership will have them and loads will not share the same opinion with Rafa regarding playing style, players fitness etc. Rafa can be wrong at times.

There is nothing wrong with you being behind Rafa and his methods, but the fact that you cant allow someone else to disagree without the needs to resort to all the OTT name calling is a bit daft.

Ace,

Do me a big favour and just read the vast amount of topics over the past few months, and just understand that I am sick and tired of explaining things with solid fact, only to have imbeciles totally ignore the reality in favour of their fantasy.

Since the Derby win, I have posted facts, figures, lists, reports, team line-ups, stats and everything else you could think of which disproves the "theories" of the Rafa detractors, and underlines the reasons I hold the opinions I do.

This situation all comes back to when Peewee had a rant a few months back, where he insisted, with all the credibility of Dr Crippin's defence lawyer, that Sabre had been instrumental in his removal as a mod. The facts were absolutely different to this fantasy, but he refused to accept it.

I took exception to his moaning, and told him so. (Many people were happy about this, I might add.) Thus began this feud.

Fast forward to the "Alonso Vs Mascherano" debate, and the gulf widened. My facts were met with ignorant disdain, not just from Peewee, but also from some hangers on who grabbed their opportunity to side against me. (As I had insulted them some time in the past. Diddums.)

Well I got tired, didn't I? Tired of explaining things so simply that even a comatose badger would understand. But no - these people were insistant that Mascher was the man in midfield, and Alonso was like a bog-eyed cousin.

Well they were wrong, weren't they? Alonso is so obviously the missing link in this team, and when he and Agger come back, I expect Mascher or Sissoko will be the target for the "Fickle Brigade." No retractions or apologies, though, to us who stay impartial to the euphoria of having a new player, and actually base our opinions on time-tested facts.

Going forwards again, we come to the rotation debate.

Many people seem to think I would bum Rafa given half a chance, and that the promise of a 3-some with him and Alonso is some kind of lifetime goal.
The fact is, however, that I have seen what the man has achieved in the time he's been here, and what he's achieved in his career previous to that, and I realise that we have, in my honest opinion, the best tactician in the World at this club.
He's outwitted the World's "leading lights" with inferior squads since he arrived here.
I realise he's not infallible - no-one is. I do scratch my head at his lineups, and his tactical substitutions, positions, etc.

But I am bashful enough to understand that Rafael Benitez knows more about this than I do. And all of you. Every last one of you.

Because he's with the team day in, day out. He's the one studying every minute detail of every little thing that occurs in every match and every training session.

So - all I REALLY expect from Liverpool fans, is a bit of trust and respect towards the best manager we've had (or are likely to have) for decades. He's better than Dalglish - his poor performances at Newcastle are proof of that.

All I really want, is for people to stop pulling him and Alonso down like they're sh*t on their shoes at every opportunity. I get annoyed when people see a player have a good game, then proclaim them to be the best in the World. It winds me up when a player of the calibre of Alonso has a quiet game, and gets abuse you wouldn't dish out to a dog, whilst our periodically heartless Captain p*sses all over our dreams week-in, week-out for months without anywhere near as much animosity.

And most of all, it bugs the cr*p out of me when people don't listen. They say something which is then disproved, but they carry on yapping as though they haven't been placed on their literary a*se. They come up with utter cack to try and re-validate their points, or try to belittle you in an attempt to save some kind of face.

So yes, Ace - back to the favour. You do this for me, and maybe, just MAYBE, you'll understand why I don't bother explaining things anymore.

So what your saying is that Rafa is untouchable, should never be sacked, that Alonso should be played out of form, that rotating 11 players per game is good for fluidity and will never have a bearing on our results, and that SG is the worst player to have ever put on a red shirt.






























  Fck me even i can ignore what you write and read bollox between the lines








good post

JohnBull wrote:When I see a team selection and end up holding my head in my hands it is not because I enjoy moaning about Raffa.

Ace Ventura wrote:

Lando_Griffin wrote:Ace,

Do me a big favour and just read the vast amount of topics over the past few months, and just understand that I am sick and tired of explaining things with solid fact, only to have imbeciles totally ignore the reality in favour of their fantasy.

Since the Derby win, I have posted facts, figures, lists, reports, team line-ups, stats and everything else you could think of which disproves the "theories" of the Rafa detractors, and underlines the reasons I hold the opinions I do.

This situation all comes back to when Peewee had a rant a few months back, where he insisted, with all the credibility of Dr Crippin's defence lawyer, that Sabre had been instrumental in his removal as a mod. The facts were absolutely different to this fantasy, but he refused to accept it.

I took exception to his moaning, and told him so. (Many people were happy about this, I might add.) Thus began this feud.

Fast forward to the "Alonso Vs Mascherano" debate, and the gulf widened. My facts were met with ignorant disdain, not just from Peewee, but also from some hangers on who grabbed their opportunity to side against me. (As I had insulted them some time in the past. Diddums.)

Well I got tired, didn't I? Tired of explaining things so simply that even a comatose badger would understand. But no - these people were insistant that Mascher was the man in midfield, and Alonso was like a bog-eyed cousin.

Well they were wrong, weren't they? Alonso is so obviously the missing link in this team, and when he and Agger come back, I expect Mascher or Sissoko will be the target for the "Fickle Brigade." No retractions or apologies, though, to us who stay impartial to the euphoria of having a new player, and actually base our opinions on time-tested facts.

Going forwards again, we come to the rotation debate.

Many people seem to think I would bum Rafa given half a chance, and that the promise of a 3-some with him and Alonso is some kind of lifetime goal.
The fact is, however, that I have seen what the man has achieved in the time he's been here, and what he's achieved in his career previous to that, and I realise that we have, in my honest opinion, the best tactician in the World at this club.
He's outwitted the World's "leading lights" with inferior squads since he arrived here.
I realise he's not infallible - no-one is. I do scratch my head at his lineups, and his tactical substitutions, positions, etc.

But I am bashful enough to understand that Rafael Benitez knows more about this than I do. And all of you. Every last one of you.

Because he's with the team day in, day out. He's the one studying every minute detail of every little thing that occurs in every match and every training session.

So - all I REALLY expect from Liverpool fans, is a bit of trust and respect towards the best manager we've had (or are likely to have) for decades. He's better than Dalglish - his poor performances at Newcastle are proof of that.

All I really want, is for people to stop pulling him and Alonso down like they're sh*t on their shoes at every opportunity. I get annoyed when people see a player have a good game, then proclaim them to be the best in the World. It winds me up when a player of the calibre of Alonso has a quiet game, and gets abuse you wouldn't dish out to a dog, whilst our periodically heartless Captain p*sses all over our dreams week-in, week-out for months without anywhere near as much animosity.

And most of all, it bugs the cr*p out of me when people don't listen. They say something which is then disproved, but they carry on yapping as though they haven't been placed on their literary a*se. They come up with utter cack to try and re-validate their points, or try to belittle you in an attempt to save some kind of face.

So yes, Ace - back to the favour. You do this for me, and maybe, just MAYBE, you'll understand why I don't bother explaining things anymore.

But this is all jut your opinion Lando. Which i respect, but when anyone diasagrees you go off on one.
Whatever happened between you and peewee is nothing to do with me but if you look back over the last few weeks your defence of all things Rafa has been crazy. Yes your behind him and can use his previous success to back him, but lets look at the here and now. I believe this season we have a major opportunity to win the title, we have the spine of a great team, we are still missing wide players that we can rely on which is dissapointing when we all knew that was were we were in desperate need of quality.
But with the likes of Reina Carragher Agger Alonso Gerrard and Torres we have 6 players that if fit should play every game, we can argue till we are blue in the face about rotation and its merits. But lets just say, does anyone remember any other top manager leaving out there best players at the start of the season to save them from fatigue ?
I actually dont mind the fact that your so pro Rafa, it bemuses me but i can live with it.
Why cant you accept that plenty of people with a bit of a knowledge of football can doubt this will work without resorting to calling them all sorts of weird made up insults ?
Some of them make me raise half a smile...but when its every post it loses the effect and makes it just look like you are unwilling to even try and listen to other peoples opinions.
Which on a forum is a little strange.

That's the thing, though - I DID listen to peoples alternative points of view, but when they shoot the facts down and start coming out with tripe to back up their arguements, is when I start calling a spade a spade, and a c*nt a c*nt.

The main points of "discussion" I refer to are:

The Alonso vs Mascherano thread, where a fair old whack of those who were saying Javier was the bees knees and Alonso was a pile of poo, are now changing their tunes and realising the importance (and ability) of our Spanish midfielder. Those "unseen" things a handful of us were suggesting Xabi possessed and brought to the side are now the very things we lack desperately. Yes Agger's absence has multiplied the problem, but the fact is the Dane tended to pass to the Spaniard anyway.

And,

The Rotation debate.

Here, things are a little more muddied, with a wider variety of opinions. I've never suggested that Rafa's way is definitely the way to the title. I've never insinuated that Rafa is untouchable or immune to criticism.
What I HAVE made patently clear is that I dislike the severity of the insults towards a man who has brought us back to the top of Europe, our biggest points total in the Premiership, our longest winning run, our longest clean-sheet run, our best defensive record ever, and, let's be honest, a pretty good trophy haul.

I trust the man implicitly, and I am confident that his methods, however unfamiliar they may be, will give us our greatest chance of winning the title.
We are not Man U. I don't CARE if Ferguson does or doesn't rotate his best players. He had the best team, and won everything he has because of that. Not his tactics.

Arsene Wenger has been beaten consistently by Rafa in terms of league positions every single season he's been here, save for his first season in charge.

Jose Moris had virtually limitless funds to win what he did, and even HE couldn't get the one trophy his pimp wanted - because of one man - Rafa. (Well, and Frank Rijkaard's Barcelona.)

So. Do we trust a fellow who has given us all this, despite lacking the spending power of his rivals? Or do we keep barating him until he leaves? Pulling up him up every single time we play, regardless of the result?

It occurs to me that many on here allowed themselves to get carried away by the Derby result, and are taking out the resulting frustrations on a man who has done nothing but good for us.

Am I too supportive of the boss? Maybe, but then I thought that was what being a supporter meant - that you back your team, and you back your manager. Criticise if you will, but still remain loyal to the employees of the club until they show a lack of such towards it.

Maybe I just suffer from a stiff leg, which prevents me from jerking my knee.

Who knows? I can't ever recall being lambasted for showing support to Rafa when we won old big ears for keeps in 2005. Or  the best FA Cup final ever.

Still - maybe I have a long memory to go with that stiff knee.

redtrader74 wrote:

Lando_Griffin wrote:

Ace Ventura wrote:

Lando_Griffin wrote:You're obviously part of the privileged minority on here who actually has a brain.

I was going to apologise as i obviously didnt read or understand your post at the time i had replied, but yet again instead of just explaing you resort to being petty with snide comments.
Thinking about it i probably called it wrong at the time as its becoming the norm to read posts from you that are...Rafa is god and anyone who has any worries about what they are seeing this season and comments on it...they are idiots and havent got a clue..they havent got FA coaching badges blah blah blah.
Well Paul Jewell in a recent article was saying that coaching badges mean feck all...anyone can get them if they took them, a formality. All the managers in the premiership will have them and loads will not share the same opinion with Rafa regarding playing style, players fitness etc. Rafa can be wrong at times.

There is nothing wrong with you being behind Rafa and his methods, but the fact that you cant allow someone else to disagree without the needs to resort to all the OTT name calling is a bit daft.

Ace,

Do me a big favour and just read the vast amount of topics over the past few months, and just understand that I am sick and tired of explaining things with solid fact, only to have imbeciles totally ignore the reality in favour of their fantasy.

Since the Derby win, I have posted facts, figures, lists, reports, team line-ups, stats and everything else you could think of which disproves the "theories" of the Rafa detractors, and underlines the reasons I hold the opinions I do.

This situation all comes back to when Peewee had a rant a few months back, where he insisted, with all the credibility of Dr Crippin's defence lawyer, that Sabre had been instrumental in his removal as a mod. The facts were absolutely different to this fantasy, but he refused to accept it.

I took exception to his moaning, and told him so. (Many people were happy about this, I might add.) Thus began this feud.

Fast forward to the "Alonso Vs Mascherano" debate, and the gulf widened. My facts were met with ignorant disdain, not just from Peewee, but also from some hangers on who grabbed their opportunity to side against me. (As I had insulted them some time in the past. Diddums.)

Well I got tired, didn't I? Tired of explaining things so simply that even a comatose badger would understand. But no - these people were insistant that Mascher was the man in midfield, and Alonso was like a bog-eyed cousin.

Well they were wrong, weren't they? Alonso is so obviously the missing link in this team, and when he and Agger come back, I expect Mascher or Sissoko will be the target for the "Fickle Brigade." No retractions or apologies, though, to us who stay impartial to the euphoria of having a new player, and actually base our opinions on time-tested facts.

Going forwards again, we come to the rotation debate.

Many people seem to think I would bum Rafa given half a chance, and that the promise of a 3-some with him and Alonso is some kind of lifetime goal.
The fact is, however, that I have seen what the man has achieved in the time he's been here, and what he's achieved in his career previous to that, and I realise that we have, in my honest opinion, the best tactician in the World at this club.
He's outwitted the World's "leading lights" with inferior squads since he arrived here.
I realise he's not infallible - no-one is. I do scratch my head at his lineups, and his tactical substitutions, positions, etc.

But I am bashful enough to understand that Rafael Benitez knows more about this than I do. And all of you. Every last one of you.

Because he's with the team day in, day out. He's the one studying every minute detail of every little thing that occurs in every match and every training session.

So - all I REALLY expect from Liverpool fans, is a bit of trust and respect towards the best manager we've had (or are likely to have) for decades. He's better than Dalglish - his poor performances at Newcastle are proof of that.

All I really want, is for people to stop pulling him and Alonso down like they're sh*t on their shoes at every opportunity. I get annoyed when people see a player have a good game, then proclaim them to be the best in the World. It winds me up when a player of the calibre of Alonso has a quiet game, and gets abuse you wouldn't dish out to a dog, whilst our periodically heartless Captain p*sses all over our dreams week-in, week-out for months without anywhere near as much animosity.

And most of all, it bugs the cr*p out of me when people don't listen. They say something which is then disproved, but they carry on yapping as though they haven't been placed on their literary a*se. They come up with utter cack to try and re-validate their points, or try to belittle you in an attempt to save some kind of face.

So yes, Ace - back to the favour. You do this for me, and maybe, just MAYBE, you'll understand why I don't bother explaining things anymore.

So what your saying is that Rafa is untouchable, should never be sacked, that Alonso should be played out of form, that rotating 11 players per game is good for fluidity and will never have a bearing on our results, and that SG is the worst player to have ever put on a red shirt.






























  Fck me even i can ignore what you write and read bollox between the lines








good post

Yes, something like that...   

bigmick wrote:It's a good post Lando and as always you can't be accused of anything but consistency in your stance. I would perhaps contest the "But I did listen to alternative points of view" bit, but it would be churlish to fall out over that.

To revisit the two main points.

Fisrtly the Masherano v Alonso question. I would agree that many got carried away with the ability of Masherano based on some very promising fisrt few appearances. I was one of those who felt he was more compatable with Gerrard if we really must play the captain inside (and I still think we shouldn't but that's not the point here) but I have been disappointed with the both oif them to be perfectly honest. They are combining, but combining in a kind of ineptness if you get my drift.

Far from being the "unseen" bits of Alonso we are missing, it is the much more obvious stuff we are lacking it seems to me. I have criticised the Spaniard vehemently for insisting on playing within five yeards of the centre halves, but it is precisely because none of the other central midfielders are prepared to come in and get it off the centre halves which is causing the absense of Agger to be so sorely felt in my view.

I still feel that if Masherano and Gerrard were performing to somewhere near their best, they would be more compatable than Gerrard/Alonso based on the form the Spaniard has shown over the last eighteen months. The fact that neither is anywhere near their best (although Gerrard was getting into the right stratosphere before being subbed on Saturday) is undeniable however. Equally undeniable at the moment is that even if Alonso were to come back into the team and reveret to exactly the form he has been showing over the last eighteen months, he would STILL be our best bet as holding midfielder at the moment. Now whether that conclusion means I called it wrong in the first place, means I'm fickle or a knee-jerker is unimportant to be honest. There seems little point to me in denying the glaringly obvious so I'm not going to.

Now onto rotation   

There is one thing that when people are debating rotation "Rafa style" that needs to be borne in mind before you start. If you consider and accept this fact, then it kind of makes it OK to sit on whichever side of the fence yo want, time will prove who was right. Here is the fact- Nobody else in the Premier League rotates the team out of choice as much as Rafa, and if he succeeds in winning the league while employing the methods he does it will in all probablility re-define what is considered to be normal behaviour for managers. A little like when foreign players first came over and people said you need five or six British players at the core of the team (which while still considered preferable by many is by no means a given anymore), rotation "Rafa style" is a completely new concept over here. Ferguson doesn't do it like that, Wenger doesn't and neither did Mourinho. If Rafa is right, then pretty much most people are wrong it seems to me.

If we then accept this premise (and I'm not trying to make a cheap point here at all, I think it's beyond debate to be honest) then we can accept the other peoples point of viuew a bit better. It's OK not to agree with the policy, and it's OK to agree with it. We will see if rotation "Rafa style" will bring us success in the League, we will see.

Very true.

Regarding my accepting others' opinions - I did it in my way - by indulging people, and countering their points, rather than purely insulting.

I am not and never will be the most polite forum user, but I do at least accept that people have differing opinions. It's an undeniable fact of life.

I just don't like it all that much.

s@int wrote:

The Alonso vs Mascherano thread, where a fair old whack of those who were saying Javier was the bees knees and Alonso was a pile of poo, are now changing their tunes and realising the importance (and ability) of our Spanish midfielder. Those "unseen" things a handful of us were suggesting Xabi possessed and brought to the side are now the very things we lack desperately. Yes Agger's absence has multiplied the problem, but the fact is the Dane tended to pass to the Spaniard anyway.

Alonso          pld 5 Won 3 Drawn 2 lost 0
Mascherano   pld 8 Won 5 Drawn 3 lost 0

Remembering that Mascherano has not had the benefit of Agger behind him in all his games (Alonso has) I think Mascherano's record stands up to Alonso's mate.

As for the Alonso thread, NO-ONE as far as I am aware said Alonso was cr@p, NO-ONE said he wasn't a good player. Just as I don't think you are saying Mascherano is cr@p now.


Personally I think the thing we lack desperately is a decent forward to play with Torres.

s@int wrote:I posted this earlier in another thread helping someone :-

Alonso this season for comparison:-


Tackles 9

Won Tackles 16


Mascherano this season for comparison :-

Tackles 21

Won Tackles 29