Liverpool FC Forum

[account deleted by request]

I posted this earlier in another thread helping someone :-

Alonso this season for comparison:-


Tackles 9

Won Tackles 16


Mascherano this season for comparison :-

Tackles 21

Won Tackles 29

How can this be?

I don't understand that bit mate, but it does the same for everyone, so it must mean something?

[account deleted by request]

But the fact is, since Alonso's injury, people are beginning to see the quality and presence the lad has.

You cannot deny that we've been missing him in midfield, and to say Mascher hasn't had Agger behind him is a little tame - he played games ahead of the Dane before he was injured.

Plus - look at the teams we've played, and then compare records. Also compare the performances of the team.

Mascherano played in our 3 best wins of the season. Derby 6-0, Toulouse 4 -0, Everton 2 -1.

[redtrader74]

Seeing as we only have one real threat up front, we could play 4-3-3 masher, Alonso, gerrard, babel/kewell left, and pennant/benayoun right. Looks more threatening and solid. Anyone got Rafas no.?!

[Lando_Griffin]

But the fact is, since Alonso's injury, people are beginning to see the quality and presence the lad has.

You cannot deny that we've been missing him in midfield, and to say Mascher hasn't had Agger behind him is a little tame - he played games ahead of the Dane before he was injured.

Plus - look at the teams we've played, and then compare records. Also compare the performances of the team.

Mascherano played in our 3 best wins of the season. Derby 6-0, Toulouse 4 -0, Everton 2 -1.

This is a moot point, really. Alonso scored twice in the Derby game, Toulouse were a pub team, and everyone seems to think we were sh*t against Everton.

Alonso played against Aston Villa away, and was there in the battering of Chelsea (despite the result). Surely you'll agree that, considering the quality of opposition, these games were far better performances than against Toulouse or Everton?

Also, don't forget we were missing Carragher in the Portsmouth game, where Alonso (I do believe) spent a lot of time hanging back so as to protect the back 4.

[account deleted by request]

Lets just blame Gerrard he's the only one of the three to have a loss against his name

Also, don't forget we were missing Carragher in the Portsmouth game, where Alonso (I do believe) spent a lot of time hanging back so as to protect the back 4.

Team against Portsmouth

Reina ,Finnan ,Carragher ,Agger ,Arbeloa ,Pennant (Gerrard ,67 ) ,Sissoko ,Alonso (Babel ,77 ) ,Benayoun ,Voronin ,Crouch (Torres ,62)

Carra has only missed 2 games, the 4 -0 against Toulouse and 6 -0 against Derby

[bigmick]

Seeing as we only have one real threat up front, we could play 4-3-3 masher, Alonso, gerrard, babel/kewell left, and pennant/benayoun right. Looks more threatening and solid. Anyone got Rafas no.?!

I don't actually like 4-5-1 in any form Red, but I must confess I've been thinking along similar lines. I would have thought that if you went with either Alonso or masherano as you sitter, with Gerrard and say, Lucas as you two central men with two other blokes out wide, you get more threat than you would with 4-4-2 and either Kuyt or Voronin up top.

Usually playing an extra midfielder helps you get going a bit as well, gives you more passing options and the like. Wouldn't surprise me if rafa gives it or something similar a stab fairly soon.

[redtrader74]

Seeing as we only have one real threat up front, we could play 4-3-3 masher, Alonso, gerrard, babel/kewell left, and pennant/benayoun right. Looks more threatening and solid. Anyone got Rafas no.?!

I don't actually like 4-5-1 in any form Red, but I must confess I've been thinking along similar lines. I would have thought that if you went with either Alonso or masherano as you sitter, with Gerrard and say, Lucas as you two central men with two other blokes out wide, you get more threat than you would with 4-4-2 and either Kuyt or Voronin up top.

Usually playing an extra midfielder helps you get going a bit as well, gives you more passing options and the like. Wouldn't surprise me if rafa gives it or something similar a stab fairly soon.

Mick I was thinking more along the lines of Masher and Alonso playing in the middle, tidying, tackling etc, and Gerrard free, two wingers and a striker. Just a thought. i don't like 4-5-1 as such, i'd prefer the mentality to be 4-3-3.

[tel]

Everything went pear shaped because

1) The dispute with Paco severly disrupted the team
2) Agger got injured and Hyypia is shocking cover
3) Alonso got injured and Sissoko is shocking cover

The best forward combination is Babbel and Torres.

Kuyt is starting too many games. I'm pleased he scored the penalties for his and our own sake, but he was rattled the entire game.

[stapo1000]

Everything went pear shaped because

1) The dispute with Paco severly disrupted the team
2) Agger got injured and Hyypia is shocking cover
3) Alonso got injured and Sissoko is shocking cover

The best forward combination is Babbel and Torres.

Kuyt is starting too many games. I'm pleased he scored the penalties for his and our own sake, but he was rattled the entire game.

how are babel and torres the best combination, they've not partnered each other yet up front. I would like to see babel get a few games up as a striker tho.

[tel]

Everything went pear shaped because

1) The dispute with Paco severly disrupted the team
2) Agger got injured and Hyypia is shocking cover
3) Alonso got injured and Sissoko is shocking cover

The best forward combination is Babbel and Torres.

Kuyt is starting too many games. I'm pleased he scored the penalties for his and our own sake, but he was rattled the entire game.

how are babel and torres the best combination, they've not partnered each other yet up front. I would like to see babel get a few games up as a striker tho.

Individually they have shown to be the most dangerous close to goal.

And we bought them to play them together.

[babu]

Haha Tel you can't possibly know that. Maybe you'll be proved correct, but there is very little evidence to support that now.

Individually they have shown to be the most dangerous close to goal.

And we bought them to play them together.

Classic.

[maguskwt]

Seeing as we only have one real threat up front, we could play 4-3-3 masher, Alonso, gerrard, babel/kewell left, and pennant/benayoun right. Looks more threatening and solid. Anyone got Rafas no.?!

I don't actually like 4-5-1 in any form Red, but I must confess I've been thinking along similar lines. I would have thought that if you went with either Alonso or masherano as you sitter, with Gerrard and say, Lucas as you two central men with two other blokes out wide, you get more threat than you would with 4-4-2 and either Kuyt or Voronin up top.

Usually playing an extra midfielder helps you get going a bit as well, gives you more passing options and the like. Wouldn't surprise me if rafa gives it or something similar a stab fairly soon.

just to play devil's advocate mick... isn't changing the formation as disruptive as rotating personel? what kind of opinion do you have on that since you're quite passionate about fluidity and players knowing telepathically where other players are, to the point that you prefer to see the same exact team for almost across all competitions... not that I mind rafa playing that system since I've been wishing rafa try a flexible system of 4-5-1 that changes to 4-3-3. (IMO professional footballers should be proficient enough to adapt to formations as well as personel changes. I do however realise the traditional formations that players were brought up with e.g. straight up 4-4-2 for english players is more familiar where holland would play 4-3-3 and germany traditionally played 5-3-2)

IMO changing from 4-4-2 to 4-5-1 is quite drastic in terms of player's roles. All of a sudden you have an extra teammate in the middle... so your passing pattern needs to change. Then the wingers  role is totally different as well...in 4-5-1/4-3-3 formation the wingers need to work harder assisting the central forward so that he won't be isolated as well as tracking back and linking with the middle three. This in turn changes the relationship between the full backs and wingers. Whereas in a 4-4-2 players' roles are more specialised. Surely if changing personel into a fixed system is disruptive, changing the formation is also equally disruptive.

[bigmick]

Surely if changing personel into a fixed system is disruptive, changing the formation is also equally disruptive.

Couldn't agree more, it's probably even more disruptive to tell the truth. This is why I'm by no means whatsoever advocating switching to 4-5-1 willy-nilly, switching back to 4-4-2 and then going to 4-3-3 for the next match. Some posters on here will tell you that that wouldn't have an effect on the fluency of the team but of course they'd be wrong.

No I'm merely thinking aloud about our current situation. As I've said a couple of times now, though I like Crouch the manager is entitled to freeze him out if he sees fit. Who knows Crouch might have had a pop at him in front of the other players, told him to stick it up his erse or whatever else, none of us know and the manager is entitled to do what he considers right. Much more worrying for me is the fact that that leaves us with three strikers, two of whom I don't think are good enough at this moment in time.

Now it is my suspicion that if we are going to make a serious challenge for the League, we are going to have to stay in contention until January and then take a game on another striker. It may well be the case that in order to stay in contention, we have to gamble even earlier, by playing some derivative of 4-5-1.

It may of course not come to that. Kuyt or Voronin may suddently start playing like strikers who would have a shout at getting in the other top clubs teams, but I tried holding my breath and found I was getting light headed so I gave up on that one. I'm sure itr wasn't our plan at the start of the season, and it may not be the long-term plan now but it is increasingly my belief that unless something drastic happens in terms of the form we are showing, it ain't going to be our year. Sometimes better than waiting for something drastic to happen, is doing something drastic.

Just to reiterate, I'm not necessarily saying we should do it, but I can inderstand anyone who is. Equally, I could understand Rafa thinking about it as an option. As I said, hopefully we start playing well and don't need anything so drastic. We should have  abetter idea of where we are after Sunday.

[112-1077774096]

though I like Crouch the manager is entitled to freeze him out if he sees fit. Who knows Crouch might have had a pop at him in front of the other players, told him to stick it up his erse or whatever else, none of us know and the manager is entitled to do what he considers right.

i think the manager should what is right for the team mick, houlier did this to fowler after his little spat with thompson, fowler was dropped and went a few games crying out for a finisher while fowler was dropped.

in my opinion its the managers duty to put the team first and not react to some squabble that may have happened. if crouch questions his managerial credentials but then crouch is the best option then he should be picked. but we all know at liverpool now you don't need to have done anything wrong to get dropped, and you don't even need to be playing well to get picked, if its your turn to play then you get a game even if you have been rubbish for the last two months

[tel]

Haha Tel you can't possibly know that. Maybe you'll be proved correct, but there is very little evidence to support that now.

Individually they have shown to be the most dangerous close to goal.

And we bought them to play them together.

Classic.

You play your best players together. Only a striker on current and better form should get the nod ahead of them. And thats definetely not the case with either Kuyt or Voronin

Those 2 would run circles around Stubbs.

Torres & Babel >>>> Tevez and Rooney

And those are the first 2 names red face puts down on his team sheet every week

Rafa's tactics are overrated. A great manager continues to cut off his nose to spite his face. His crusade to prove he is right is costing him his player's confidence