Liverpool FC Forum

by **stmichael** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:35 pm

I've been looking at a few other forums today and am quite frankly surprised and disappointed at the amount of stick Dirk Kuyt is getting at the moment. Ok he's been struggling since the new year but he's still an invaluable member of the side in so many ways.

Don't get me wrong I love Dirk, I really do, but a lot of fans are concerned about the fact that in the last 5 or 6 matches, Dirk has only really had one real chance of any note in front of goal? (Off the top of my head, the header in the first couple of minutes against Villa.) To be honest, it wouldn't bother me as much if he was getting into positions to miss, as Shankly said, but the fact that he sometimes goes match upon match without a goalscoring oppurtunity is slightly worrying to me. I like his movement and his awareness of the play around him is, at times, top draw. At the moment though he couldnt trap a dead bear and his passing is very off kilter.

I think it's a combination of things. His workrate is superb but I think he's finding the pace of the game in this last third of the season taxing. I'm no expert on the Eredivisie (I can't even spell it) so I dont know how his workrate there matches up to the running he does in the prem or indeed his role in the team. I'm led to believe that he was the main striker at Feyenoord whereas here he's very much a team player. This hasnt helped him and neither will the rotation though from memory, he's been rotated less than Bellamy (another who has been decent but hardly electrifying.).

I think Rafa's tactics are to use certain players for certain things in certain games. A little overkill in my opinion in the Prem where such nous is wasted against the sh#te, Bolton and some of the other dross.

A good rest over the summer will do Dirk the world of good imo. He's not playing like a £10m player at the moment for sure but he's definitely got the ability. He just needs to be a little bit cuter round the box and he'll be fine.

When Owen had a slump he was awful. A lot worse than Kuyt is at the moment, but with Owen we always knew he was a quality player 95% of the time. Kuyt got 20 plus goals a season for 4 straight years, you've got to have some class to do that whatever league you are in.

Thoughts?

by **grayghost** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:42 pm

To think we paid the same amont as spurs paid for Berbertov
I just don't think he is good enough for are starting 11 next year. Hard graft just is not enough now we are gona need goals creatvity and hard work from wohever rafa brings in to play that role next year. I would love Tevez personally

by **66-1112520797** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:44 pm

Just before the Watford game the other day I was having a brief chat with Dawson in the Watford thread. I was saying, that I would of liked to see Crouch and Bellamy play upfront together for that match. Instead of Bellamy and Kuyt, who Dawson would of prefered, funnily enough we both got our wishes as Rafa played three upfront.

That was a good result for us, even if the performance was slightly sterile, but I'd of happily taken that result and performance given the week we've had. After watching the game I honestly thought Crouch was the most liveliest of the three forwards and probably our best player on the day. And of course he scored two goals aswell.

I know in that game Kuyt dropped off Bellamy and Crouch to come deep and almost played a link man at times. But he also does that when playing in a pair upfront, leaving his partner most of the time to sniff out the chances alone. Obviously Rafa likes this about him, personally I dont. When I was brought up playing football as a striker, the main aim was to be selfish infront of goal, play off the last defender and bag a hatfull of goals. If you didnt come up with the goals on a consistent basis, you'd find yourself warming the bench for the next game. How the game has changed, in terms of what managers expect from their players and in this instance their strikers. But it has not changed the fact that goals win you games and for me and for all his starts this season Kuyt hasnt done this. I'd happily have his fellow countryman RVN in the Liverpool side over him, because he is an old fashioned type of center-forward who gets goals.

All our strikers, mainly Bellamy, Kuyt and Crouch all have the same ethic as in they'll work hard and chase down defenders. Which is great, but at the end of the day in my book especially its goals that count. And looking at recent displays, or displays this season its apparent to me that out of those three Kuyt is the least likeliest to find the onion bag.
But yet he seems to be Rafa's first choice of strikers on the teamsheet every week. And TBH its left me puzzled to say the least. Has he continuously picked him, is it because he's rated Kuyt ever since he was at Valencia ? Will he not rotate him, like most of the other players because he was a big summer signing, and cant justify it ? Or is simply because he thinks he's doing enough in the side at the moment to warrant a start ?

If the latter is true, think of the games we've dominated and havent won because of our lack of clinical finnishing. Where if we would of had your Robbie Fowler type of strikers there, or even Robbie himself we may well of got more points from games. Actually the most recent game where we didnt convert our goals into chances was probably at Blackburn on boxing day. But it was Crouch who failed to convert on numerous occasions,granted. But at least he's taking up those positions to begin with, which is just as important. Kuyts not doing that as such, so effectively we have only on forward out of two, who seem to be looking to score goals, either Bellamy when paired off with Kuyt or Crouch when paired off with Kuyt.

I'm not bashing Kuyt here let me tell you, but like I said in my mind obviously not Rafa's strikers are there to get you goals like Rush, Owen, Fowler, Shearer and Linekar did for there teams respectively. I just think Rafa shouldnt pick Kuyt game after game if he's rotating the majority of players around him on a regular basis. The only player who hasnt really been rotated this season is Finnan and thats due to the fact we've got knowone who can fill in. But the same cant be said for our strikers, so Rafa rotate all FOUR of your strikers, not just leave one position free to fight it out between three. Hell play Robbie more, the guy deserves more than five minutes at the end of every other premiership match way play.

If anyone here thinks what Kuyts doing game in and game out is enough well I'm sorry your wrong. All of fans might say he's good at droppping off and linking up midfield and defence. Bo.llox he's gotta do more than that IMO. And infact he shouldnt be needed or asked to do that to the extent he's not finding goal scoring opportunities, when you have players behind him like Gerrard and Alonso who can link up midfield to attack, thats not the concern in my mind. Scoring goals is.

* I posted that in a thread I started a while ago, I dont think my opinion has changed too much since then.

by **redmikey** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:49 pm

st mike i was watchin the match last night with a lad who has seen alot of dutch football, and he said that dirk is doing a very different job to the one he did in holland as he was more of a floating striker coming into the box late but not doing all the donkey work he is doing now

does he have to put him self first and do abit less running to save some energy for in the box like owen was brilliant at doing, i think he might . but i believe he is trying so hard to do every thing for the team that he is negelting his primary role goals goals goals, but given time he will be like drogba, working hard but getting the pay off

by **peterc1992** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:49 pm

Hes not worht the money we paid for him,hes a good worker but wont score 20+ goalss for us,i no he has in the past but that was a :censored:

league and all the people that scored so many goals int hat league,Kezman who had almost 1 goal in every game ratio.Hes in the spanish league now i think and he ws with chelsea and idnt do anything.Id rather take owen back than have him and hes not worht 14 million when owen was sold for 7 milliion and :censored:

nunez?

?

by **stmichael** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:14 pm

redmikey wrote:st mike i was watchin the match last night with a lad who has seen alot of dutch football, and he said that dirk is doing a very different job to the one he did in holland as he was more of a floating striker coming into the box late but not doing all the donkey work he is doing now

I personally think he is under instructions to work the wings and drop back almost into midfield so as not to let the opposition time to settle.

Has he played upfront for us as an out and out striker yet

? and if he did how did he get on?

He's performing like a player who's playing in what is the most physically intensive league in Europe after spending almost all of his career in Holland where he played, at most, four or five tough games a season. He needs to get through this season and he'll be okay next year.

by **Stu.Murph** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:38 pm

stmichael wrote:I've been looking at a few other forums today and am quite frankly surprised and disappointed at the amount of stick Dirk Kuyt is getting at the moment. Ok he's been struggling since the new year but he's still an invaluable member of the side in so many ways.

Don't get me wrong I love Dirk, I really do, but a lot of fans are concerned about the fact that in the last 5 or 6 matches, Dirk has only really had one real chance of any note in front of goal? (Off the top of my head, the header in the first couple of minutes against Villa.) To be honest, it wouldn't bother me as much if he was getting into positions to miss, as Shankly said, but the fact that he sometimes goes match upon match without a goalscoring oppurtunity is slightly worrying to me. I like his movement and his awareness of the play around him is, at times, top draw. At the moment though he couldnt trap a dead bear and his passing is very off kilter.

I think it's a combination of things. His workrate is superb but I think he's finding the pace of the game in this last third of the season taxing. I'm no expert on the Eredivisie (I can't even spell it) so I dont know how his workrate there matches up to the running he does in the prem or indeed his role in the team. I'm led to believe that he was the main striker at Feyenoord whereas here he's very much a team player. This hasnt helped him and neither will the rotation though from memory, he's been rotated less than Bellamy (another who has been decent but hardly electrifying.).

I think Rafa's tactics are to use certain players for certain things in certain games. A little overkill in my opinion in the Prem where such nous is wasted against the sh#te, Bolton and some of the other dross.

A good rest over the summer will do Dirk the world of good imo. He's not playing like a £10m player at the moment for sure but he's definitely got the ability. He just needs to be a little bit cuter round the box and he'll be fine.

When Owen had a slump he was awful. A lot worse than Kuyt is at the moment, but with Owen we always knew he was a quality player 95% of the time. Kuyt got 20 plus goals a season for 4 straight years, you've got to have some class to do that whatever league you are in.

Thoughts?

My thoughts are have I seen this wrote somewhere before?

by **stmichael** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:38 pm

peterc1992 wrote:hes not worth 14 million

i know. that's why we only paid £10m. :;):

by **Stu.Murph** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:39 pm

£9,500,000 if you want to be pedantic.

by **Bammo** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:47 pm

i think kuyt drops off because we don't have another striker who can link between midfield and attack to play with him. crouch can hold the ball up but both he and bellamy are best when pushing on the last defender. i'd love to see kuyt given a game as the lead striker just to see what he's capable of.

by **NiftyNeil** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:13 pm

I don't know what's going on with the lad at the moment, he hasn't looked the same player this year as he did in the first half of the season. Mabye it is fatigue. We don't know what pre season he had at Feyenord, and he's probably played the most out of our strikers.
There is no doubt about his quality though, and I think we'll see the best of him in his second season. Meanwhile, people should lay of his back and give him time.

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:34 pm

Two moments in last night's game highlighted the problems I see with Kuyt's game at the moment. In the first half there was a moment where a PSV player lost possession to Alonso in midfield. Quick as a flash, Xabi knocked an enticing through ball into space beyond PSV's central defenders. Kuyt was the intended target but he had nowhere near the required pace to make the most of it and the keeper was able to come well out of his area to intercept easily.

The second came late on, when another PSV lapse led to Crouch collecting the ball in their half. He laid the ball off to Kuyt making the run to his right and then got on his bike to get into the box for the return--a fourth goal was on! Kuyt ran the ball into the right channel, drawing a CB with him--as he should--leaving Crouch in acres of space in the box with only one PSV defender to contend with. But, when it came time to cross to Crouch in the box Kuyt thumped it against his marker and it went harmlessly into touch. Had he been able to simply stand the ball up for Crouchy, he could have scored a sitter. Alternatively, a perceptive ball on the deck might have only required Crouch to toe-poke it home.

So, what do these two incidents show? For me, the first demonstrates that Kuyt lacks the pace to punish defenders when they push up (unlike Bellamy). The lad's a bit lead-footed and it's cost him goalscoring opportunities. The second incident shows that his distribution isn't always as good as it needs to be. Again, this hasn't been the only time these past few months when he's failed to pick out a strike partner or an on-rushing midfielder with the right pass. When you add this to a rather average first touch, I start to wonder whether dropping deep to link midfield to attack suits the lad at all. After all, if he hasn't got the pace and dribbling ability to worry most defenders, if he's not shown a consistent ability to set up chances for others (something he seemed to show much more early in the season, to be fair) and if his touch lets him down so frequently, is he really the player for that role?

Don't get me wrong, I truly appreciate the work he does for the team but I can't help but think that our other three strikers carry a much greater goal-scoring AND goal-creating threat at the moment and it's not like Bellamy and Crouch don't work hard defending from the front when they play is it?

by **stmichael** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:11 pm

NiftyNeil wrote:I don't know what's going on with the lad at the moment, he hasn't looked the same player this year as he did in the first half of the season. Mabye it is fatigue. We don't know what pre season he had at Feyenord, and he's probably played the most out of our strikers.
There is no doubt about his quality though, and I think we'll see the best of him in his second season. Meanwhile, people should lay of his back and give him time.

Rafa works the players b#llocks off pre-season and at the start of the season so they're at optimum level come the most important part of the season (I know the first couple of months have cost us). Maybe with that and having to come to a league with far more intense important games has tired him out. A summer with little international football, a good break and a full pre-season under Rafa should do him a world of good.

by **wrighty (not mark!)** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:37 pm

stmichael wrote:Has he played upfront for us as an out and out striker yet ? and if he did how did he get on?

This is something that I have mentioned in the 'how far are we?' thread and I basically think that you have hit the nail on the head.

Last night was a perfectly good example when he drifted out wide to put a cross in only to earn a throw in. Out and out strikers don't play like this.

What about the Newcastle game early on in the season when he scored two goals? Anybody with a decent memory? :upside:

by **wrighty (not mark!)** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:38 pm

Apologies to badbob for using the same example as him! Just read his post

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