Liverpool FC Forum

by **RED BEERGOGGLES** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:25 pm

I just find the division over the manager hilarious now and I don't mean that in a condescending way ,I just feel certain posters are slowly and steadily chewing their bottom lip away because other posters will not see their point of view .... well I thought this was a forum where all opinions are welcome ,I was under the distinct impression that all views however controversial as long as they are not hateful slanderous libellous or indeed steeped in an overwhelming hatred for the manager or Liverpool football club should be replied to in the manner they were penned

Surely its time for the divide to be narrowed if not closed ,its not about the manager it never has been its about kicking unceremoniously the very real sinister threat of these two miscreants pillaging our club till there are scant remains ...
Whoever is at the forefront will have to engage in a salvaging job akin with raising the hull of the Titanic ( we need close to a miracle here people ) and those of you that think that a slight exaggeration on my part then I would proffer there would be more hope of performing the latter than raising The red giant back on its weary feet such is its fall from grace ....

I mean is it to much to ask for a little civility while we engage in banter on this forum ,just because people refuse to be swayed whatever their opinions maybe is not a reason to draw battle lines ,listen I don't know whether posters lives are that empty or indeed if they feel their voices are not heard enough and use this forum as a vehicle to vent their frustrations and anxieties ,but surely people will listen more if the context of your post is not filled with disgusting and at times disgraceful slurs ,surely I am not in the minority thinking this

I personally come on this forum as a refreshing break from all the others who see only one side of the coin(albeit that side of the coin being my personal preference anyway ) ,and anyone who disagrees is shunned and ridiculed and called all manner of expletives ,and that's where this place used to offer more in the way of respecting other peoples views and constructing intelligent debate around that premise and ffs this used to be a place for a laugh anyone remember humour ?

I don't know maybe its to late as Saint was saying last night,maybe the chasm is that vast now its inexplicable to expect it to close ,to many bridges burnt ,but I will continue to post in the perhaps vain hope that in the aftermath when these vile men have left our shores and we survey the wreckage they have left ,maybe then we can begin to understand how ridiculous both sides have been .

I sincerely hope so

by **bigmick** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:43 pm

The problem is essentially that everyone thinks they themselves behave in a reasonable way, when in actual fact everyone (except me obviously) is equally to blame. I must confess I do find some of the behaviour of sections of the forum a bit OTT at times, not only do they choose to disagree they choose to abuse as well and there isn't any need for it.

As for this thing about people chewing their bottom lip if others don't agree with them, I couldn't agree more. I personally couldn't care less, not one jot whether anybody agrees with me or not. When I say that the owners love having Rafa as manager and apparantly "flush any credibility I've got left down the toilet"
:laugh:

(I didn't know I had any anyway) I care not one iota. Nobody sees it the way I do, just like nobody saw the rotation debate in quite the same way as I did. That's OK though, I care not at all. It is my opinion, I have given it some considerable thought, and I am convinced I am right. Quite why people can't just say "nah I think you've got that one wrong Mick" rather than foaming at the mouth is and has always been a mystery to me. Quite why such an opinion makes you a disgrace is similarly baffling.

When people say that it isn't possible that we can challenge for the league, or that nobody would want to manage us, or the best we can hope for is mid table I totally disagree and deplore their negativity and lack of belief. I don't say it as they're entitled to their point of view, but I think it anyway. When those same people who say we can't win the league, can't get a manager who's better than Neil Warnock and can't finish higher than mid table call me negative, a disgrace, a c... who should be barred then it all gets a bit much.

Football debate is dead in the water, and while that suits some because they are utterly clueless anyway, for others it makes the forum tedious. It's groundhog debates over and over. We play sh!t, draw or lose, half of the forum says get a new manager, the other half says it's feck all to d with him. When we win and play well, half of the forum say "see I told you we were quite good" and the other half of the forum say it's because the managers a genius.

It's boring, and hence the forum is not in its best form at the moment. That said, it will no doubt score a goal off it's erse over the next few weeks and then it'll be flying again.

by **stmichael** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:59 pm

It' simple. Moan and bitch about Rafa all you like, even replace him perhaps. But nothing is every going to improve at the club we love until tweedle dee and tweedle dumb get the hell out!

We're supposed to be the most knowledgable fans around. Unfortunately we now have to put up with the endless drivel on 606 and internet forums, "Lucas is rubbish" and "Rafa out" is all they ever talk about.

If they cared so :censored:

much, they'd get off Rafas back and direct their criticism in the right place.

by **RED BEERGOGGLES** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:05 pm

bigmick wrote:The problem is essentially that everyone thinks they themselves behave in a reasonable way, when in actual fact everyone (except me obviously) is equally to blame. I must confess I do find some of the behaviour of sections of the forum a bit OTT at times, not only do they choose to disagree they choose to abuse as well and there isn't any need for it.

As for this thing about people chewing their bottom lip if others don't agree with them, I couldn't agree more. I personally couldn't care less, not one jot whether anybody agrees with me or not. When I say that the owners love having Rafa as manager and apparantly "flush any credibility I've got left down the toilet"
(I didn't know I had any anyway) I care not one iota. Nobody sees it the way I do, just like nobody saw the rotation debate in quite the same way as I did. That's OK though, I care not at all. It is my opinion, I have given it some considerable thought, and I am convinced I am right. Quite why people can't just say "nah I think you've got that one wrong Mick" rather than foaming at the mouth is and has always been a mystery to me. Quite why such an opinion makes you a disgrace is similarly baffling.

When people say that it isn't possible that we can challenge for the league, or that nobody would want to manage us, or the best we can hope for is mid table I totally disagree and deplore their negativity and lack of belief. I don't say it as they're entitled to their point of view, but I think it anyway. When those same people who say we can't win the league, can't get a manager who's better than Neil Warnock and can't finish higher than mid table call me negative, a disgrace, a c... who should be barred then it all gets a bit much.

Football debate is dead in the water, and while that suits some because they are utterly clueless anyway, for others it makes the forum tedious. It's groundhog debates over and over. We play sh!t, draw or lose, half of the forum says get a new manager, the other half says it's feck all to d with him. When we win and play well, half of the forum say "see I told you we were quite good" and the other half of the forum say it's because the managers a genius.

It's boring, and hence the forum is not in its best form at the moment. That said, it will no doubt score a goal off it's erse over the next few weeks and then it'll be flying again.

Thanks for your input Michael ,it certainly is an issue that needs resolving ,I think in my experience rifts such as the one self inflicted by posters differing opinions takes time to heal but while their is still common ground (that being the well being of Liverpool Football club )then I believe most sections have the club at heart and will endeavour at some stage to resolve their petty arguments around intelligent football debate ,although admittedly this possible resolution seems to be getting further away

I suggest we use this thread to instil a consistent flow of less abusive posts , away from the more volatile contributor shall we say ,maybe then we can not forget what divides us but sound less bitter in doing so .... what do you think Michael

by **Owzat** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:07 pm

When all that is debated is the manager, and there are two distinct sides who won't concede much, then surely that's as surefire an indicator that the only solution to the arguing is the manager departing? While he remains so too will pro and anti Rafa stances, the (circular) arguments, blaming everything under the sun etc And I'm not using this to say he has to go, what I'm saying is that this is what you can expect from LFC debates from now until he does leave.

I've said before that I go on a non-LFC forum because you can discuss other things football, get other points of view and it can be a break from this place. Maybe some should spend less time on here, maybe even take a week off or not come in until the weekend or within a few hours either side of a match. Since no football is played inbetween matches then what else (new) is there to discuss? So it's not just a case of accepting others' viewpoints but realising that a forum for ONE FOOTBALL CLUB is hardly going to generate enough fresh material to sustain a day or two a week let alone seven.

We could do with a little bit less gestapo attitude with what people can or can't say

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:14 pm

Wtf ? I was just replying to St. Micks pro rafa rant and it disappeared

I think there are a lot of good posters on both sides of the argument, but its the extremists on both sides that do most of the damage. Calling Rafa a cun.t, or calling a poster a cun.t because he doesn't like some of Rafa's decisions helps no one and certainly doesn't encourage good debate.

As they say, "some of my favourite posters are pro's."

Personally I see nothing wrong in questioning the manager or the players at this stage of the season. We all (or nearly all) expected much better than what we have received in terms of results, money from the owners and performances from the players this season.

The only thing that continually annoys me is the same arguments being revisited over and over again, it just gets boring. (Money being the prime example)

I really do believe that people should be allowed to voice their opinion both for and against Rafa/Owners/Any given player..... as long as they do so in a proper manner. There is really no excuse for all the abuse thrown both at Rafa and at posters who's opinion may not match their own , and even worse is to try to censor people by requesting they are banned for expressing their opinion, this totally wrong in my view.

by **RED BEERGOGGLES** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:22 pm

Owzat wrote:When all that is debated is the manager, and there are two distinct sides who won't concede much, then surely that's as surefire an indicator that the only solution to the arguing is the manager departing? While he remains so too will pro and anti Rafa stances, the (circular) arguments, blaming everything under the sun etc And I'm not using this to say he has to go, what I'm saying is that this is what you can expect from LFC debates from now until he does leave.

I've said before that I go on a non-LFC forum because you can discuss other things football, get other points of view and it can be a break from this place. Maybe some should spend less time on here, maybe even take a week off or not come in until the weekend or within a few hours either side of a match. Since no football is played inbetween matches then what else (new) is there to discuss? So it's not just a case of accepting others' viewpoints but realising that a forum for ONE FOOTBALL CLUB is hardly going to generate enough fresh material to sustain a day or two a week let alone seven.

We could do with a little bit less gestapo attitude with what people can or can't say

I understand your concerns ,but surely in retrospect whoever was to become manager would be offered no quarter for failure ,given the hostilities we have witnessed between both opposing sides of the divide ,surely you would expect a multitude of posters unceremoniously gloating over the new mans ineptitude if it so proves to be ,with that in mind would it be not more beneficial to both parties to advocate the removal of the owners ,then and only then can we discuss the managers deficiencies amicably

Sorry mate I do sympathise with your poignant views but I still believe the removal of the owners priority ,but thanks for your post Owzat ,I think a huge majority of posters should contemplate your suggestion of taking a much needed break

by **stmichael** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:27 pm

s@int wrote:Wtf ? I was just replying to St. Micks pro rafa rant and it disappeared

I think there are a lot of good posters on both sides of the argument, but its the extremists on both sides that do most of the damage. Calling Rafa a cun.t, or calling a poster a cun.t because he doesn't like some of Rafa's decisions helps no one and certainly doesn't encourage good debate.

As they say, "some of my favourite posters are pro's."

Personally I see nothing wrong in questioning the manager or the players at this stage of the season. We all (or nearly all) expected much better than what we have received in terms of results, money from the owners and performances from the players this season.

The only thing that continually annoys me is the same arguments being revisited over and over again, it just gets boring. (Money being the prime example)

I really do believe that people should be allowed to voice their opinion both for and against Rafa/Owners/Any given player..... as long as they do so in a proper manner. There is really no excuse for all the abuse thrown both at Rafa and at posters who's opinion may not match their own , and even worse is to try to censor people by requesting they are banned for expressing their opinion, this totally wrong in my view.

What does my in is that there are people on this forum who are here merely to have a moan at the manager. They don't post in any of the threads about the team. They also disappear when the team are doing well and then resurface one we have a bad result just so they can moan again. They even have to bring the manager into it in threads which have nothing whatsoever to do with the manager.

And don't even get me started on some of the stuff the manager has been called by some of our so called "supporters" on here.

by **RedSi35** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:31 pm

I am right, the rest of the internet is wrong..............................its the internet culture

There is only one way to settle this.......................................................FIGHTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

It doesnt matter whether its the manager/owners/players/tactics/pies etc people will always disagree. For the past 40 years we have been spoilt at this club in terms of success, we do not have the god given right to just expect it to happen year on year. Blips happen...........and hopefully this is just a blip this season, however as Red Beergoggles said, it does not matter who comes in as manager, after the brief honeymoon period he will be subjected to the same requirements and pressures that is put on this club as Rafa is.

This club is built on success and we obviously all want that to continue, maybe along the way we need a bit of reality to make us all realise what we have.

Just count ourselves lucky we support a successful club, jesus christ if we were Burnley/Portsmouth/WestHam supporters i think we would have all be in mental wards by now.

by **RED BEERGOGGLES** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:42 pm

s@int wrote:Wtf ? I was just replying to St. Micks pro rafa rant and it disappeared

I think there are a lot of good posters on both sides of the argument, but its the extremists on both sides that do most of the damage. Calling Rafa a cun.t, or calling a poster a cun.t because he doesn't like some of Rafa's decisions helps no one and certainly doesn't encourage good debate.

As they say, "some of my favourite posters are pro's."

Personally I see nothing wrong in questioning the manager or the players at this stage of the season. We all (or nearly all) expected much better than what we have received in terms of results, money from the owners and performances from the players this season.

The only thing that continually annoys me is the same arguments being revisited over and over again, it just gets boring. (Money being the prime example)

I really do believe that people should be allowed to voice their opinion both for and against Rafa/Owners/Any given player..... as long as they do so in a proper manner. There is really no excuse for all the abuse thrown both at Rafa and at posters who's opinion may not match their own , and even worse is to try to censor people by requesting they are banned for expressing their opinion, this totally wrong in my view.

I completely agree with all of that Saint ,lets make threads which will entice the old posters back ,I avoid a thread which mentions how much we have spent or for that matter accumulated as I would a lift in a mini full of Lepers

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:42 pm

stmichael wrote:
s@int wrote:Wtf ? I was just replying to St. Micks pro rafa rant and it disappeared

I think there are a lot of good posters on both sides of the argument, but its the extremists on both sides that do most of the damage. Calling Rafa a cun.t, or calling a poster a cun.t because he doesn't like some of Rafa's decisions helps no one and certainly doesn't encourage good debate.

As they say, "some of my favourite posters are pro's."

Personally I see nothing wrong in questioning the manager or the players at this stage of the season. We all (or nearly all) expected much better than what we have received in terms of results, money from the owners and performances from the players this season.

The only thing that continually annoys me is the same arguments being revisited over and over again, it just gets boring. (Money being the prime example)

I really do believe that people should be allowed to voice their opinion both for and against Rafa/Owners/Any given player..... as long as they do so in a proper manner. There is really no excuse for all the abuse thrown both at Rafa and at posters who's opinion may not match their own , and even worse is to try to censor people by requesting they are banned for expressing their opinion, this totally wrong in my view.

What does my in is that there are people on this forum who are here merely to have a moan at the manager. They don't post in any of the threads about the team. They also disappear when the team are doing well and then resurface one we have a bad result just so they can moan again. They even have to bring the manager into it in threads which have nothing whatsoever to do with the manager.

And don't even get me started on some of the stuff the manager has been called by some of our so called "supporters" on here.

I agree mate, as I said there are extremists on both sides though. How many times after we win do you get the old " where are all the moaners now" being thrown up. As if people will be "upset" that we have won or something. We all support Liverpool, we may see different ways of improving our lot, but we all want to see Liverpool win and win well.

At the moment the manager is the fundamental topic so its no real surprise to me that almost every thread becomes a discussion about him or the owners.

I would seriously doubt if any supporter just comes on to gloat in our defeat mate, maybe they post more due to their anger or disappointment when we have lost ?

by **stmichael** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:53 pm

s@int wrote:I would seriously doubt if any supporter just comes on to gloat in our defeat mate, maybe they post more due to their anger or disappointment when we have lost ?

I don't think they come on to gloat, I just think they're miserable gits.

For example I'll quote you what Big Niall has just poted in the "will we finish 4th" thread with regards to Rafa:

"The man is incompetant and should be fired - I am sickened the owners don't have a clause saying they can fire him if he fails to qualify for the CL.

7th place is a disgrace and he should be ashamed, do the honourable thing and quit, but these types never do, he'll hang on, just like Fred the shred for a massive payoff for being useless."

Well thanks for that post. That really adds a lot to the discussion. It's these sorts of posts that drag this place down.

by **red37** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:08 pm

Yes, i wholeheartedly applaud the 'eroican' spirit in which RBG is attempting to embrace and coalesce the forum back into some semblance of its normal wellbeing. Full support for that notion here.

The obstacles that lay in the path of that goal often seem many, however they're not insurmountable. Most of the gripes are attributable directly to the teams fortune, arising out of frustration to that. We are all supporters who have the interests of the club at heart...and when you speak from the heart. You convey meaning with purpose and sincerity.

With any platform where the common layman is furnished with a gob that he feels holds free license over and above the opinion of others (one that not necessarily can manage well its own concept of decency or fairness at any given time). It is understandable that there will be friction on occasion. Human condition, the nature of the beast and all that. Besides there is little profit for wallflowers here. Nor should there be if you intend to stimulate arguement as well as postulate opinion with the best of 'em.

One thing i find particularly amusing though - yet wholly deplorable is where a member feels he/she simply has to have the upper hand or has in some way, shape or form scored a bonus point. For example, i was reading a thread recently where - some unscrupulous character was competitavely claiming the metaphorical 'first prize' for being able to 'predict' months in advance (through whatever means at his disposal i assume) that Liverpool would infact not finish inside the top 4 this term. Almost completely translated if you like into an abridged version of the event thus: :rasp

Alarming to say the least. However 'nowt so queer as folk' i suppose...in any case the analogy prevails across many a topic - and by many exponents of it sadly.

Having said that, on the whole some allow themselves the 'flights of fancy' regards certain topics. Others are happy to ingratiate their input in a respectful and enlightening manner. There will always be the 'downpressors' - the 'doomsayers' - Those that demand perhaps more than they are wiling to impart....or acknowledge. Abusers and dubious characters notwithstanding, this is generally the way of it on a forum which needs a blend of all these factions in order to propagate healthy and diverse debate at all in the first place. Newkit is no different.

Balance will be restored - eventually. Even shrinking violets can apply for the role! It is simply the cycle of events that dictate the tone of debate. Topical.

Anything above that remit will be bounced into touch.

by **RED BEERGOGGLES** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:16 pm

stmichael wrote:
s@int wrote:I would seriously doubt if any supporter just comes on to gloat in our defeat mate, maybe they post more due to their anger or disappointment when we have lost ?

I don't think they come on to gloat, I just think they're miserable gits.

For example I'll quote you what Big Niall has just poted in the "will we finish 4th" thread with regards to Rafa:

"The man is incompetant and should be fired - I am sickened the owners don't have a clause saying they can fire him if he fails to qualify for the CL.

7th place is a disgrace and he should be ashamed, do the honourable thing and quit, but these types never do, he'll hang on, just like Fred the shred for a massive payoff for being useless."

Well thanks for that post. That really adds a lot to the discussion. It's these sorts of posts that drag this place down.

This thread has a specific purpose to unite those who have been inadvertently split down the middle ,and its intentions whilst being careful not to impose any restrictions is to allow intelligent deliberation when possible ,and to exclude posters who spew the usual venom from participating ..... unless I might add they refrain from using said vitriol and personal threats

Listen we all love Liverpool with a passion ,but passion shouldn't be so vocal as to tear asunder another persons beliefs to the extent of ridiculing them by hurling obscenities and in some cases personal threats ,and that's why I hope this particular thread stays true to the purpose proposed in its conception

by **RED BEERGOGGLES** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:28 pm

red37 wrote:Yes, i wholeheartedly applaud the 'eroican' spirit in which RBG is attempting to embrace and coalesce the forum back into some semblance of its normal wellbeing. Full support for that notion here.

The obstacles that lay in the path of that goal often seem many, however they're not insurmountable. Most of the gripes are attributable directly to the teams fortune, arising out of frustration to that. We are all supporters who have the interests of the club at heart...and when you speak from the heart. You convey meaning with purpose and sincerity.

With any platform where the common layman is furnished with a gob that he feels holds free license over and above the opinion of others (one that not necessarily can manage well its own concept of decency or fairness at any given time). It is understandable that there will be friction on occasion. Human condition, the nature of the beast and all that. Besides there is little profit for wallflowers here. Nor should there be if you intend to stimulate arguement as well as postulate opinion with the best of 'em.

One thing i find particularly amusing though - yet wholly deplorable is where a member feels he/she simply has to have the upper hand or has in some way, shape or form scored a bonus point. For example, i was reading a thread recently where - some unscrupulous character was competitavely claiming the metaphorical 'first prize' for being able to 'predict' months in advance (through whatever means at his disposal i assume) that Liverpool would infact not finish inside the top 4 this term. Almost completely translated if you like into an abridged version of the event thus:

Alarming to say the least. However 'nowt so queer as folk' i suppose...in any case the analogy prevails across many a topic - and by many exponents of it sadly.

Having said that, on the whole some allow themselves the 'flights of fancy' regards certain topics. Others are happy to ingratiate their input in a respectful and enlightening manner. There will always be the 'downpressors' - the 'doomsayers' - Those that demand perhaps more than they are wiling to impart....or acknowledge. Abusers and dubious characters notwithstanding, this is generally the way of it on a forum which needs a blend of all these factions in order to propagate healthy and diverse debate at all in the first place. Newkit is no different.

Balance will be restored - eventually. Even shrinking violets can apply for the role! It is simply the cycle of events that dictate the tone of debate. Topical.

Anything above that remit will be bounced into touch.

Excellent post and thanks Red, If such actions can indeed be implemented then I am sure that threads such as these will continue to transpire and be hugely beneficial to the forum

Liverpool FC Forum

All views welcome - Salvage

Who is online