Liverpool FC Forum

by **Igor Zidane** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:00 am

heimdall wrote:Finally, I get igor to ignore me, one down only another 50 rose tinters to go.

I didn't say Rafa IS a t1t I said he was made to look a t1t over the Barry transfer saga, just like he was in that weird "factual" rant at Fergie, not that Fergie came out of that much better.

You must be so proud , i won't sleep tonight now . WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM. :sleep

by **LFC2007** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:57 am

Benny The Noon wrote:
I already did it earlier on this thread but be my guest. I'll have a stab from memory.

'kuyt has been very poor this season and only those who are the most rose tinted or clueless would deny it".

Might not be word for word but that was the crux. You go back and do the real quote and we'll compare. BTW I stand by the original statement 100%.

And is that not the same as the whole "not allowing other people to have an opinion "

Yes it is.

A clear double standard; the only difference being the subtelty of the insult.

by **heimdall** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:03 am

Igor Zidane wrote:
heimdall wrote:Finally, I get igor to ignore me, one down only another 50 rose tinters to go.

I didn't say Rafa IS a t1t I said he was made to look a t1t over the Barry transfer saga, just like he was in that weird "factual" rant at Fergie, not that Fergie came out of that much better.

You must be so proud , i won't sleep tonight now . WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.

I thought you were ignoring me, not doing a very good job of it are you.

by **heimdall** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:04 am

LFC2007 wrote:
Benny The Noon wrote:
I already did it earlier on this thread but be my guest. I'll have a stab from memory.

'kuyt has been very poor this season and only those who are the most rose tinted or clueless would deny it".

Might not be word for word but that was the crux. You go back and do the real quote and we'll compare. BTW I stand by the original statement 100%.

And is that not the same as the whole "not allowing other people to have an opinion "

Yes it is.

A clear double standard; the only difference being the subtelty of the insult.

I disagree, how is BM saying that other people are not allowed to post? He is just saying that in his opinion you would have to be crazy to think Kuyt has had a good season, he's right btw.

by **Ciggy** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:28 am

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz are you gang of tw@ts still goin on about him getting the sack?

Cant wait for Curbs or Strachen to take over then.

*Puts on Patsy Cline record Whos sorry now*.

by **allred** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:58 am

Ciggy wrote: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz are you gang of tw@ts still goin on about him getting the sack?

Cant wait for Curbs or Strachen to take over then.

*Puts on Patsy Cline record Whos sorry now*.

Exactly right.

Who do people think will take over if rafa is sacked?

The owners will put in a puppet, who will do whatever he's told.

NO world class would manager would want to come and work under the circumstances they would face at liverpool.

by **LFC2007** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:15 am

heimdall wrote:I disagree, how is BM saying that other people are not allowed to post? He is just saying that in his opinion you would have to be crazy to think Kuyt has had a good season, he's right btw.

There's a surprise :laugh:

Anyway, I think it's hypocritical to perpetually moan about 'people not grasping the concept of agreeing to disagree', and 'not being allowed an opinion' etc.. while leaving in these subtle insults. That's to say, if you're someone who thinks Kuyt's season has been anything other than 'very poor', then Mick thinks you are 'clueless'. Given that he knows there are members here who admire Kuyt - this being a Liverpool forum, and him knowing 'Benny' - then it's fair to say that such a comment is effectively the same as directly calling someone's opinion 'bullsh!t', which is what 'Benny' initially did.

To bring it back round to the issue of missing out on top class players such as Simao, Alves, Aguero, Pato and the like, we're by no means unique in the sense that no club can guarantee it's first choices but if you're further down the pecking order - and we were (and still are) - then acquiring that level of quality when we hadn't the resources to simply go and spend £30m on a Rooney or £24m on a Drogba, was always going to demand efficient movement in the market by club executives. I don't see why that should be shrugged off as 'par for the course' at a top club when it clearly isn't. Players of that ilk aren't 'always' available - there isn't 'always' an alternative of similar quality out there and perhaps that is best seen in the difference in quality between Alves and Pennant, or even Simao (whereas the Manc's missed out on Ronaldinho and signed Ronaldo). If you're a club like us trying to come close to Rooney/Ronaldo/Drogba level quality, it becomes much more important to maximise the opportunity when it arrives.

by **bigmick** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:03 am

LFC2007 wrote:That's to say, if you're someone who thinks Kuyt's season has been anything other than 'very poor', then Mick thinks you are 'clueless'.

Well anybody who thinks otherwise IS in my opinion

.

No doubt by definition they think I'm clueless for thinking what I do too. In fairness saying "anybody who denies he's been very poor is clueless" is hardly the same as somebody calling a poster a c... and abusing him for ten minutes.

Big bad bigmick being all abusive and calling people clueless (nobody in particular either, just saying 'anybody'). Anyone who was offended by behaviour has my humblest apologies. If you don't think Kuyt has been very poor you are obviously entitled to your opinion, and mine on whether or not you are clueless will be kept to myself.

All the usual disclaimers apply, Kuyt isn't on his own, I don't hate him, he isn't sh!t etc. He'd still be in my first choice team too just in case anyone's wondering.

by **LFC2007** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:15 am

Fair enough mate.

If in your opinion Kuyt is sh!t that's your prerogative.

by **Dazzer** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:17 am

NANNY RED wrote:Anyway im off here , A good fecking interview from our manager got posted up on here , letting us no were skint an we have to sell factamundo, an it has been ripped to shreds again, , Not a fecking good word to say about him an im afraid i find it disgusting , He answerd questions about why we missed out on Ramsey an a few other things the media b.ullshit train have been on , an hes the one who ends up the bullsh.itter . Somewould be made up if we did sell Torres just so Rafa would feck off, But would they still be there ey supporting when we finish in eighth or ninth place with fecking Harry as the boss,

Yes I would support liverpool if we played in league 2 , conference league would be pushing it. :laugh:

Nope prob would then as well. :grinning:

Would you Nan ? I am sure you would like me so its all good lets just hope things never get that bad.

by **Dazzer** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:22 am

Igor Zidane wrote:
Benny The Noon wrote:The point igor was makin is the reason we didnt get these players is down to one reason - Money/Funds and that ultimately leads to the Owners.

And you basically tore into it going on about Parry and making out as if its down to Rafa

The point i was making , was that we all base our opinions on rafa on either speculation or hearsay or what has come out in the media. None of us know him personally or what's really going on behind the scenes .So this was a chance for all of us to get some insight about the man the manager and about all the involving the owners ,transfers ,the academy ,the future ,straight from the horses mouth . Or one of the horses anyway .

What happens , it gets put down to spin and lies and manipulation .
Not taken for what it was ,which was just an honest interview , that's all .No big feckin drama's ,,no spin ,just an interview . So waht happen's now is what always happens on this forum .Rafa comes out looking likea tw@t and some master spin doctor who manipulates the press and us kn)bheads who believe in him .

If it makes you feel better I took it just for the face value of the interview. :nod

Now does that mean I believed every word of it I dunno maybe not but like I said who don't twist the truth now and agian to favour thier motives.

by **made in UK** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:49 am

Espionage wrote:Great read, good stuff said by Rafa (and I hope he does this more often).

He is a likeable guy and just needs to put himself out there a bit more as it makes a huge difference to how he is seen by the media I would think.

I like this post from Espionage.

I to hope he does do these interviews more often as it offers insight into his perspective. Much speculation is usually touted about concerning Rafael Benitez and his job. Be it on the message boards, phone ins, media or press. Hearing what he has to say about certain issues has reinforced my faith in him somewhat at a time when I had all but given up on him. I agree with Espionage in that I'd like to see him come out more and give understanding to Liverpool fans especially so we're in 'his' know more and remind us why we should keep faith in him.

Finally I posted this up because I knew it would generate discussion. I like the interview as I said it has given me a little more understanding from his perspective. Many other people like it too, great! Some however are sceptical about parts of it and that in my opinion is good too. Good discussion should arise from different views and put forward. After all my initial thread has been merged with the "proper analyst" thread and people therefore have the right to critique it, analyse it and pull things out of it they don't agree with it. If we all agreed on everything there would be hundreds of one liners implying 'Rafa is boss!', 'fecking owners' etc etc. its not really good for discussion if everyone agreed on everything really. People have different views and that should be remembered.

Likewise if you don't agree with what the more sceptical mob (and I am still sceptical about Rafa by the way, I just like this interview however) are saying, argue against it. Its your right to do this appropriately.

by **Igor Zidane** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:46 am

made in UK wrote:
Espionage wrote:Great read, good stuff said by Rafa (and I hope he does this more often).

He is a likeable guy and just needs to put himself out there a bit more as it makes a huge difference to how he is seen by the media I would think.

I like this post from Espionage.

I to hope he does do these interviews more often as it offers insight into his perspective. Much speculation is usually touted about concerning Rafael Benitez and his job. Be it on the message boards, phone ins, media or press. Hearing what he has to say about certain issues has reinforced my faith in him somewhat at a time when I had all but given up on him. I agree with Espionage in that I'd like to see him come out more and give understanding to Liverpool fans especially so we're in 'his' know more and remind us why we should keep faith in him.

Finally I posted this up because I knew it would generate discussion. I like the interview as I said it has given me a little more understanding from his perspective. Many other people like it too, great! Some however are sceptical about parts of it and that in my opinion is good too. Good discussion should arise from different views and put forward. After all my initial thread has been merged with the "proper analyst" thread and people therefore have the right to critique it, analyse it and pull things out of it they don't agree with it. If we all agreed on everything there would be hundreds of one liners implying 'Rafa is boss!', 'fecking owners' etc etc. its not really good for discussion if everyone agreed on everything really. People have different views and that should be remembered.

Likewise if you don't agree with what the more sceptical mob (and I am still sceptical about Rafa by the way, I just like this interview however) are saying, argue against it. Its your right to do this appropriately.

In one lash , spot on . It's all about discussion and it might get abit heated at times ,but there's no need for abuse at all . Of rafa or any other fecker for that matter . If we can debate and discuss like last night( until the end bit which got ruined) the forum will be a far better place for it .

by **Igor Zidane** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:38 am

Dazzer wrote:
Igor Zidane wrote:
Benny The Noon wrote:The point igor was makin is the reason we didnt get these players is down to one reason - Money/Funds and that ultimately leads to the Owners.

And you basically tore into it going on about Parry and making out as if its down to Rafa

The point i was making , was that we all base our opinions on rafa on either speculation or hearsay or what has come out in the media. None of us know him personally or what's really going on behind the scenes .So this was a chance for all of us to get some insight about the man the manager and about all the involving the owners ,transfers ,the academy ,the future ,straight from the horses mouth . Or one of the horses anyway .

What happens , it gets put down to spin and lies and manipulation .
Not taken for what it was ,which was just an honest interview , that's all .No big feckin drama's ,,no spin ,just an interview . So waht happen's now is what always happens on this forum .Rafa comes out looking likea tw@t and some master spin doctor who manipulates the press and us kn)bheads who believe in him .

If it makes you feel better I took it just for the face value of the interview.

Now does that mean I believed every word of it I dunno maybe not but like I said who don't twist the truth now and agian to favour thier motives.

That's totally fair enough , but atleast you've taken time to read the bugger and took it for what it was . Now that doesn't mean that Rafa is god all of a sudden and you've seen the light . What it might have done is help you understand abit more .That's all .

by **Benny The Noon** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:24 pm

Tomkins Latest Post .

Being a fellow Red Tinted Specs Pro Rafa Pro Liverpool Supporter i Agree with him

Despite all the problems this season, the biggest ray of hope remains the chance to see a fully fit strongest XI take to the field.

For years, the criticism was that Benítez bought too many squad players, and didn't spend his budget on the high-end, proven quality stars who cost a pretty packet.

But adding a £25m player to the squad he inherited was almost pointless.

Too many new players were needed across the board to succeed in the long-term; and if the new £25m man broke his leg, or turned out to be a Veron or a Shevchenko, Benítez would have been back to square one, sending out players who were patently not good enough.

If you look at how Benítez spent his first £20m, you'll see why his was the correct way. Xabi Alonso and Luis Garcia cost around £16m combined; Nunez was part of the Owen deal, but valued at around £2m I believe, and Josemi was also about £2m.

Critics took great pleasure in pointing out the two flops, but they were inexpensive; the two successes contributed to winning trophies and the pair left for £33m, over twice what they cost. (And even the Josemi and Nunez fees were recouped when they departed.)

Similarly, over the next few years, players like Reina, Agger and Benayoun have come in for £5m-£6m, and been worth their weight in gold.

The evolution of Liverpool's squad has continued thus. Every year we've seen some excellent players arrive, but also some who've failed to make the grade. That's natural.

But it can take time to integrate new players, and get the balance right; especially when the natural counterweights are unavailable to the manager.

One thing I discovered when researching my book ‘Dynasty' was just how many flops Bill Shankly signed; in some cases, players I'd never even heard of, and not all of them signed for negligible fees.

Fifty years on, and in a different era, no-one focuses on these errors of judgement; and rightly so, because of Clemence (read Reina), Keegan (read Torres), Yeats (read Mascherano), Hughes (read Alonso), et al – the top-class purchases that more than compensated.

It also backs up my theory that it's hard to make more than one outstanding purchase a season. Few managers ever manage to do better; the talent is in short supply, and competition fierce.

By my reckoning, Shankly signed 16 outright successes – in fifteen years; about nine or ten were bona fide greats.

Also by my reckoning, Benítez has signed Alonso, Reina, Torres, Agger and Mascherano, who are all up there with the best in their position. Alonso has now gone, but the others remain, and Johnson looks set to be added to that list, while Aquilani has the chance to.

These days, you need a bigger squad. And another problem is that some of your signings cannot be as successful as they would if they got regular football; but despite needing to buy more players, you can still only start with eleven.

Part of the problem in 2004 was that age was not on Benítez's side – or should I say, in Houllier's side. Of those Rafa inherited, most of the best half a dozen were 30 or over.

Houllier had created an excellent, experienced squad by 2001, but three years later the squad was suddenly full of inferior imports; the young replacements, like Diao, Diouf and Cheyrou, were just not good enough, and his better signings were knocking on in years.

So by the time additions were made by Benítez to replace the deadwood in all areas of the team – two or three years down the line – the likes of Hyypia, Finnan and Hamann themselves would be tailing off (while the excellent Markus Babbel had seen his career wrecked by illness).

So Houllier's best signings were never going to serve Benítez for very long, and his worst were on long contracts, with their values dwindling rapidly.

Perhaps this is why the Reds peaked at 3rd in the league in 2006 with a very healthy 82 points, then dipped for a couple of seasons; already another mini-transition was necessary.

By the time the Reds finished 2nd, with 86 points, Hamann and Finnan were gone, and the ageing Hyypia was scarcely needed. Liverpool's worthy title challenge came with only that one Houllier signing, and the Finn played just a handful of games.

And of course, going back to 2004, Michael Owen had kept his options (or rather his contract) open in order to be able to leave to Real Madrid (which was his right), while Harry Kewell, one of the few other top-class players, was just never fit. Had injuries not blighted his career at Liverpool, more might have been achieved.

But Kewell became yet one more player who needed replacing around the three/four-year mark, when it was clear that he would never offer enough.

In the case of both Owen and Kewell, the Reds were unable to recoup the money their natural ability and previous reputations merited. Contract situations, and injuries, meant that the club gained just £8m for the pair. That meant less to reinvest.

Now, as 2010 approaches, we're seeing something very different from the critics. Liverpool, it's decreed, don't have a good enough squad. For four years the criticism was “the first XI needs improving”; now it's about squad depth.

And yet the first XI, to my mind, is now as good as anyone else's in the Premiership; a real achievement in team building. The problem is, we've not got even close to seeing it in 2009/10.

The positive is that it remains something to look forward to; in particular, the attacking triumvirate of Torres, Gerrard and Aquilani, which, in theory, is mouth-watering.

And the squad is far better than the critics suggest; however, it does not have the almost unending depth of the biggest spenders.

Saturday's opponents, Manchester City, have a quite incredible cluster of strikers, but keeping them happy long-term will be a challenge (the large wage packets help).

Maybe they could attract them all to City with the promise of being in the first team, with the position yet to be nailed down by anyone. But at Liverpool, everyone knows who the centre-forward will be if everyone is fit; making it both a blessing and a curse.

You can ask potential signings to challenge Torres for the role, but they will have realistic ideas of their chances.

Peter Crouch was already at the club, and a great player to have in the squad, but turned down the offer of a new deal because he knew he couldn't play every week.

Even then, a player Benítez was mocked for signing left for a profit, despite only a year being left on his deal. And with brilliant ignorance, some pundits continue to slate the manager for not wanting him! Crouch is now at Spurs, challenging for a starting place, but as good as they are, Keane is no Gerrard and Defoe is no Torres.

Benítez has also received untold criticism in the past 18 months for persisting with David N'Gog, who was a teenager when he arrived last year. Now people are finally seeing the young Frenchman's worth.

In many senses, N'Gog is the perfect back-up for Torres, because he's talented, but very much a willing apprentice. When you have a real, one-in-a-million star, the understudy has to accept his position, but also keep working to close the gap.

In an ideal world it'd be great to have two ‘finished-article' world-class forwards warming the bench, but it's simply unrealistic. In an ideal world, N'Gog would be 23/24 now, but what would he have cost? Not £1.5m.

And this is where another bonus from this most testing of seasons comes in. While the team has struggled at times when massively under-strength, the same is not true of every player.

At the start of the campaign, Insua was a mere squad man, N'Gog was (ludicrously) mocked for being a ‘no-one', and Lucas was given dog's abuse by people unable to see his true worth.

Now, each has significantly enhanced his reputation. If all three were on the bench – as might well be the case if the best XI was available – then suddenly that bench would seem stronger. Still so young, none is anywhere close to finishing his development, but each has improved. In these trying times, to differing degrees, they've come of age.

People are now admitting that Lucas is far better than they gave him credit for. And the more aware will realise that N'Gog actually has the best goals-per-minute ratio at the club; it was good last season, but now it's better than Torres'.

That doesn't mean N'Gog could keep up that incredible rate when starting games week after week, but it does mean that he can be an excellent impact player and a fine understudy, as seen in the way he finished off Manchester United and tortured Birmingham's defence.

But of course Liverpool's best hope of success lies with getting its best players onto the field as much as possible. Shocking luck with injuries can undermine any side.

I make it that the following defenders have started major games: Carragher, Agger, Johnson, Skrtel, Insua, Kelly, Kyrgiakos, Degen, Ayala and Aurelio.

That's ten defenders starting in the Premiership or Champions League by November! (Therefore not even including the League Cup, while in the Champions League there have been no dead-rubbers.)

Even with rotation, you might expect five or six at the most by this stage; seven at a push. Two of those ten defenders were teenagers making their full debuts, while of course Johnson and Kyrgiakos are new additions to the team.

It's no wonder the Reds have been shipping more goals than you'd expect. The same has been true of Manchester United when they've had key absentees this season; shipping three at home to CSKA Moscow, for example. The same has been true of Chelsea when they've been without John Terry.

As mentioned earlier, Liverpool have a first team as strong as any Premiership rival – providing Aquilani is as good as he was for Roma.

Indeed, while there's always a chance a player can fail to adapt, let's not forget the chance that Aquilani could actually be better than he was in Italy. As seen with Torres leaving his boyhood Atléti , it can be emancipating to leave your hometown club, where you've carried a burden.

Sometimes you need to escape to reinvent yourself, and be taken more seriously. So the Italian is not limited to reproducing only what he achieved in Rome – in what is, when every Liverpool player is fit, a better side; if he really shines, the team can, too.

And I'd still take this current collection of players over any I've seen since 1988. For me, it's stronger than the last title-winning side in 1990.

But even that glorious 1988 vintage would have struggled without Barnes, Beardsley, Aldridge and Hansen. If they'd all been injured, we would not still be talking about that side being better than the Brazilians.

And this current collection has age on its side; the same group of players can mature together over the next four or five years. Carragher aside, all are in their 20s, and most in their mid-20s.

There's a lot to look forward to, if enough players get fit and stay fit. Of course this season is already undermined by some poor results (some deserved, some definitely not).

But as we saw with Arsenal last season, a bad few months at the start of a campaign does not mean the team or its manager is on the slide.

Far from it.

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