Liverpool FC Forum

by **alanricouk** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:34 am

He offers nothing, and is an embarrassing footballer. I can't believe he still gets a game. He'll play in the FA cup no doubt, and do nothing again.

by **Owzat** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:09 am

Toffeehater wrote:
oakton wrote:
Toffeehater wrote:When kuyt was in good form where the were all you moaners ? Just because results have not gone our way , the first one to get the stick is kuyt , well kuyt's goals have got us where we are , victories against man city and wigan , bolton and if it wasn't for him we could be playing in the uefa cup right now . His hardwork on the right have contributed to our position as well . Yes he has been poor this last 3 to 5 games or so but he has been upfront alone and isolated . Play him with a partner and see the difference .

When was he ever in good form? yes he kicks the occasional goal, but he plays too many ordinary games

At one point i remember he was scored 5 goals in something like 5 games ?

If we're talking Kuyt, all seven of his goals this season came within an 18 appearance spell - starting at home against S Liege and ending against Bolton away.

He scored five goals in seven games, six in 10 and hasn't scored since mid-November. Coincidentally Torres missed seven games from late-November and Rafa started experimenting with strikers in his absence

He's not really coped with being moved from the right to CF and back again. I'm sure the changes of formation don't suit him either as he attacks the box from the right and has a striker to consider ie the two can get in each other's way/territory.

Lesson to be learned is we are, and were last season, most effective 4-5-1 (or however you want to dress it up) with Kuyt on the right and Torres a lone striker. Perhaps the mistake in buying Keane wasn't paying £20.3m for him, but that it made Rafa rethink the formation to accommodate him. Had it been a lesser expenditure or name he may have stuck to his guns and the formation that served us well.

by **bigmick** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:20 am

Pretty much agree with that Owz. It's a funny one the signing of Keane and everyone slagging it off though. I wonder if Alonso had played this season as he did last, would he have been benched and Masherano played? As Xabi's form has improved out of all recognition and he is playing much less latterally, there is much less of a need for a second striker. Now when we play 4-5-1 it is much harder for teams to isolate Torres and Gerrard, and the form of Gerrard as a support front man has improved imeasureably.

Could it just be that the revalation which is the form of Alonso, has kind of skewed the thinking which Rafa no doubt had about the necessity to change to 4-4-2 to give us more penetration? One things for sure, with Xabi playing like he is now, with our current personel and with the current state of mind of all the players for whatever reason, 4-5-1 is our most potent formation. This is true purely and simply because it lets us get our best player on the ball as often as possible.

There ios still part of me though which hankers after a 4-4-2 with Gerrard on the right. Now Alonso is back to his best, I have a feeling it would be our best bet. That is if Keane's confidence and demeanor is actually repairable, which is by no means a certainty I don't think.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:47 am

For me Kuyt just cannot play on the right in a 4-4-2 or up front as a striker. The ONLY time Kuyt looks comfortable is on the right of a 3. Every time we play 4-4-2 he struggles ...... mainly because he is NOT a winger, if we want to play 4-4-2 we should either play Pennant, El Nahzir or Benny on the right.

by **alanricouk** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:31 am

s@int wrote:For me Kuyt just cannot play

Should have stopped there.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:44 am

alanricouk wrote:
s@int wrote:For me Kuyt just cannot play

Should have stopped there.

I knew I was pushing my luck

by **GRAHAM01** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:59 am

s@int wrote:For me Kuyt just cannot play on the right in a 4-4-2 or up front as a striker. The ONLY time Kuyt looks comfortable is on the right of a 3. Every time we play 4-4-2 he struggles ...... mainly because he is NOT a winger, if we want to play 4-4-2 we should either play Pennant, El Nahzir or Benny on the right.

i would have liked to have seen gerrard on the right last night with mash and alonso in the middle rafa could have changed that part of it if had wanted to e.g. take off mash put gerrard backin the middle and put babel on the right and or keane off and put gerrard just behind torres, that would have been a hell of a lot better than what we had last night

by **Sir Roger** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:05 am

If God would have wanted Kuyt to be a winger he would have made him fast, with a good first touch and be able to cross a ball properly.
I rest my case...

by **stmichael** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:13 am

Kuyt was poor last night but for me Riera was just as bad. If you're playing 4-4-2 you need your wide men to produce some crosses for the front two and they provided nothing all night.

The problem is, if Kuyt gets dropped then Benayoun will likely play and he's yet another scapegoat when things aren't going well. Babel is just completely out of favour.

by **bigmick** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:20 am

They play the Mancs in the next game but one, and although they've admittedly got a good defense you just know that the two full backs will come under much more pressure than we out them under. Hibbert is at best an average top flight fullback I think. He is absolutely paceless and wouldn't get in many Premiership teams other than Everton. Leighton Baines is no great shaked either IMHO, and neither Riera nor Kuyt asked a question of either all night. In actual fact Amechobi offered more than either of our two, while Steven Pienar was comfortably the best wide midfielder on view I thought.

All that said, we never really got going in an attacking sense so they weren't on their own weren't Riera and Kuyt.

by **Sir Roger** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:24 am

I think we can safely say the Reina, Carragher, Gerrard and Torres are guaranteed a place. The other 7 are on rotation duty. And depending on which system and formation Rafa wants to play for each specific game, the team selsction can never be predicted.
The same as the result.

by **bigmick** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:30 am

Sir Roger wrote:I think we can safely say the Reina, Carragher, Gerrard and Torres are guaranteed a place. The other 7 are on rotation duty. And depending on which system and formation Rafa wants to play for each specific game, the team selsction can never be predicted.
The same as the result.

Quite funny that one mate, as was your "if God had meant Kuyt to be a winger" :laugh:

.

You remind me of somebody else, but welcome aboard. You'll certainly get into plenty of rows with posts like that one.

by **Owzat** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:12 pm

s@int wrote:
alanricouk wrote:
s@int wrote:For me Kuyt just cannot play

Should have stopped there.

I knew I was pushing my luck

It's one of those you watch out for, like you should resist typing "I don't think" !

I agree on Kuyt, as I explained I think he is more effective when he cuts in from the right, playing teammates in or getting in good shots. There's been so much focus on playing Keane (into form) and shifting to a 4-4-2 that few consider the implications on other players

Torres - seems happier alone up front, evident (for me) in the European Championship final

Kuyt - for aforementioned reasons, his game is better when he is less compelled to stay out wide or as a (solo) striker

Gerrard - looks a lot more at home behind Torres, they link well and he has more freedom than in the middle of a 4-4-2

Riera - like Kuyt I think he likes the freedom of coming in as a wing forward more than an out and out wide midfielder in a 4-4-2. He likes to cut inside, I just feel restricting his freedom restricts his effectiveness

Mascherano/Alonso - having Mascherano has one benefit for me, it frees up Alonso (and Gerrard) more from defensive duties and to push into attack. It seems to give us more control over midfield.

Maybe it's simply the freedom the formation affords to the attacking players in it, less rigid and inflexible than 4-4-2

by **aCe'** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:19 pm

Owzat wrote:
s@int wrote:
alanricouk wrote:
s@int wrote:For me Kuyt just cannot play

Should have stopped there.

I knew I was pushing my luck

It's one of those you watch out for, like you should resist typing "I don't think" !

I agree on Kuyt, as I explained I think he is more effective when he cuts in from the right, playing teammates in or getting in good shots. There's been so much focus on playing Keane (into form) and shifting to a 4-4-2 that few consider the implications on other players

Torres - seems happier alone up front, evident (for me) in the European Championship final

Kuyt - for aforementioned reasons, his game is better when he is less compelled to stay out wide or as a (solo) striker

Gerrard - looks a lot more at home behind Torres, they link well and he has more freedom than in the middle of a 4-4-2

Riera - like Kuyt I think he likes the freedom of coming in as a wing forward more than an out and out wide midfielder in a 4-4-2. He likes to cut inside, I just feel restricting his freedom restricts his effectiveness

Mascherano/Alonso - having Mascherano has one benefit for me, it frees up Alonso (and Gerrard) more from defensive duties and to push into attack. It seems to give us more control over midfield.

Maybe it's simply the freedom the formation affords to the attacking players in it, less rigid and inflexible than 4-4-2

sorry but i just dont agree with some of the stuff u have up there..

Kuyt
first off, since this is a Kuyt thread ill start with that... he offers very little in any position he plays and is contibution to the side is more or less the same regardless of where he plays.. playing him higher up only means that he hed get more chances to have a go at goal and possibly score a few more but all that at the expense of having someone else who would imo have a better chance of scoring from an advanced position... his crossing is bad and he cant dribble or pick a good through ball to put a forward in... completely irreliable player and id go as far as saying that hes been detrimental to the teams attacking play more often than not.
That said, ill still give him credit for one thing... when playing that role u mentioned, he does tend to cut in alot and the only good i see from that is that he has okayish heading and has used that sometimes to knock down crosses from the left or have a go at them himself ... all in all what he does there is far from good enough and that right side offers very little in terms of creating chances whenever hes played there...

the whole 4-5-1 or 4-4-2 thing...

now i know many would argue that Torres is better playing alone upfront, but i dont think that thats good enough a reason for us to be playing the formation regularly.. U also mention Gerrard, Mascherano and Riera... Gerrard is huge for us wherever he plays and hes proved that yet and again.. he played in the middle of a midfield 4 and scored and dictated the game countless times and that IMO is his best position. U talk about getting the most out of what you got, and imo we get the most of Gerrard's abilities when we play him in the middle alongside Alonso.. same arument can be put out for Alonso... he likes to play deep and recieve the ball from the back and spring it around the pitch and he has a better chance of picking out players and runner when we play the 4-4-2 simply because we'd have more bodies playing higher up..
id rather have Alonso pick out any of Gerrard, Riera, Keane, Torres, or even Benny rather than play a square pass to mascherano, which he often doesleading us nowhere..

Mascherano..
Hes a good player but in 15 out of every 20 games, we just dont need him... he offers nothing going forward, and as we all probably know by now, a Gerrard-Alonso pairing in the middle is more than good enough defensively and offers more than enough going forward aswell... that said, he can do a job against the bigger sides and is a brilliant option to have when needed.

Riera..

I dont get the part where u say that Riera prefers playing as a left forward ? he offers pretty much the same imo when he plays in a 4-4-2 or a 4-5-1... connects well with the players next to him (Aurelio-Alonso) and good movement off the ball to find spaces.. if anything he could be criticized for a lack of end product at times and that imo again is down to us not having enoug bodies infront of him for him to pick out.. surely a front 2 pairing would suit him better ? we'v yet to see him go to the byline and make crosses consistently but in terms of balance and a little bit of flair hes delivered imo.. hes good at bringing the players around him into play, and again that means that the likes of Alonso, Aurelio, Keane and Gerrard would benefit more if hes played in a 4-4-2 rather than a 4-5-1..

Less rigid and inflexible than 4-4-2 ?!

I think the only rigid and inflexible thing about us is the manager... u have sides like ManUtd and Arsenal playing 4-4-2 and playing very attractive attacking football in doing so.. players interchanging positions and moving off the ball nicely.. nothing like what we have here.. in my books the 4-5-1 we play is more rigid than the 4-4-2.. with our 4-5-1 you just know that the only player infront of gerrard is going to be Torres, the only player ull pick out wide right is kuyt and same with the left side.. we'r very limited in a sense that any sort of attacking move we try to come up with is at the very least expected by opposition defenders and can be easily defended if the defenders do their jobs probably.. gerrard isnt a creative attacking midfielder.. he wont go around dribbling to create space and wont be able to put a forward through if the defenders do their job in keeping the one man upfront well marked.. atleast with a 4-4-2 we have more players to pick out and more options in attack.. we can go wide and put crosses in knowing we have more than 1 player in the box, we can go from deep with gerrards runs through the middle or alonsos passing.. or we can just play it to the forwards who will always have more of a shot when its 2 vs. 3/4 rather than 1 vs. 3... can hold up the ball higher up better..

See now im not saying 4-5-1 isnt a formation that could work, im just saying that given what we got, we'd be better off playing 2 men upfront.. sticking to the pair, with our best 4 behind them all offering different things when going forward.. again, u look at the way ManUtd and Arsenal play.. 4-4-2 with players moving around .. i think we can do the same given the players we got.. if rafa would just give it a go for some time i believe it could very well mean that we start dominating games more and winning more with CONVICTION... something we'v lacked despite playing the 4-5-1 more often than not...

by **stmichael** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:29 pm

It's a decent post ace and I agree with a lot of what you say.

I don't mind us playing 4-4-2 but the system is fundamentally flawed in my opinion when you have a centre half like Sami playing. Dont get me wrong Sami is different class, but as you say his lack of pace means we have to defend so much deeper. This means the midfield is deeper and too far away from the strikers.

Dirk Kuyt should never be played on the right in a 4-4-2. Infact if we're going to let Pennant go then we don't have anybody to play out there inthat system. Benayoun is not a natural wide player. Gerrard would probably be the best option with Masc and Alonso central but then again Gerrard would be the best player wherever he played on the pitch.

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