Liverpool FC Forum

maypaxvobiscum wrote:

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:

Bad Bob wrote:

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:I'm not denying it's a bigger achievement Bob, but people are shrugging off the UEFA Cup like it didn't matter.

But the difference between the two wasn't as big as people like to make out either. We were still fighting for the FA Cup as well as the UEFA in 01 and won both along with the league cup which Benitez actually lost, so come the final months of the season Benitez only had one trophy to go for because he gave up on the league in 05 well before Christmas.

So you're not denying that anymore eh, mate?   Wasn't too long ago you were saying they were basically equivalent.

Moving on, whilst I'll give Houllier credit for successfully navigating the simultaneous UEFA and FA Cup runs, I reject the associated implication that Benitez somehow had it easy because he was only going for the CL in 2005.  Sometimes, John, you make it sound as though anyone could have won us the CL that season.  Houllier, apparently, provided all the players (except, of course, Alonso and Garcia) and Rafa apparently had the luxury of just focusing on Europe.  Put the two together, stir in a little luck and player brilliance in the final and, presto, the cup just lands in Rafa's lap, right?   Truth is, Houllier didn't even come close to winning that trophy with the same players at his disposal, so Rafa deserves a lot more credit for that achievement then he's been getting around here of late.

Finally, I even more strongly reject this nonsense that Benitez somehow "gave up" on the league before Christmas.  This seems to be a popular tack amongst Rafa-bashers of late--dismiss the man as somehow disinterested in the league.  Absolute and utter bollox as far as I'm concerned.  You can dispute his methods all you want.  You might even be able to dispute his priorities on certain occasions when the two competitions pull him in opposite directions.  But I don't think it's even remotely reasonable to dispute his desire to succeed in the league.  It's a cheap shot towards a man that has demonstrated his commitment to this club time and again, it's got no basis in fact (and, no, admitting to the press that he finds the CL easier to prepare for is not an admission that he doesn't care about the league) and, it's not necessary.  There's plenty of ammunition in terms of his tactics for those that want rid of him to use in order to make their case.   No need to make him out to be some no mark foreigner who's taking the p!ss out of title-hungry fans at every turn.

They are equivilant Bob or do you get to two super cup finals for winning the European Cup or do you get two medals for winning the European Cup. It's a bigger achievement because it holds more presitge, but it's still equivilant in terms of what you win. ONE trophy.

Next it was more difficult to go for and win both FA Cup and UEFA Cup glory. Two trophies are always more difficult to win than one. But I will say here that I'll credit Benitez for every little thing that he has achieved at this club and that includes the success of Istanbul. I'm not, as some assume, on a whitch hunt for Benitez. I think he's worked wonders at times and there's not many managers in the history of football who could of won us the European Cup in the same time scale and with the same players Benitez did. For that he deserves credit, because although it's the players who go out and perform they can only perform to the tactics that he sets. For the best part of every game in europe he got it spot on it 2004-05.

I will however disagree (again ) that he didn't give up on the league. Maybe before Christmas is a bit harsh from my side but continuiouslly picking Pelligrino for the league while leaving Hyypia for Europe is IMO giving up on the league. I know it was a very injury hit year, in fact we didn't have a fully fit squad from October onwards, but he still put Europe first that season. I'm not saying he always does it although I do think he's done it a few times, but lets just say by mid January then, I'll move it on a fornight, he'd given up on the league. He even gave up on the FA Cup (nothing to do with Europe because Leverkusen came around four weeks after Burnley) but he still couldn't give a monkey's toss about the FA Cup in his first year.

i bet u were drunk when u typed everything.
so 2 trophies is harder then 1? if u wanna be calculative, ur right, but it also depends on the nature of the competition.
ok so meeting league champions and the best clubs in europe is easier? who did we beat along the way to winning the fa cup and who did we beat along the way to win the ECL?

We beat Rotherham, Leeds, Man City, Tranmere, Wycombe and Arsenal. But so what, you can only beat what's in front of you.

I wouldn't class Burnley or Barnsley as world beaters but they beat us in the same competition under Benitez. I'd class Barcelona, Roma and Porto better than Monaco but Monaco managed to beat us in 2004-05 under Benitez. Deportivo held us to a draw and Olympiakos scored their first ever goal on British soil against us and we were within 6 minutes of going out. Just like this season, one point from the opening three games in the European Cup. So is it any league format that he constantly up in? Scraping through against teams who are no better than the likes of Bolton or Newcastle.

Bad Bob wrote:

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:I will however disagree (again ) that he didn't give up on the league. Maybe before Christmas is a bit harsh from my side but continuiouslly picking Pelligrino for the league while leaving Hyypia for Europe is IMO giving up on the league. I know it was a very injury hit year, in fact we didn't have a fully fit squad from October onwards, but he still put Europe first that season. I'm not saying he always does it although I do think he's done it a few times, but lets just say by mid January then, I'll move it on a fornight, he'd given up on the league. He even gave up on the FA Cup (nothing to do with Europe because Leverkusen came around four weeks after Burnley) but he still couldn't give a monkey's toss about the FA Cup in his first year.

Okay, first off there was no chance in hell of us winning or, indeed, competing for the title in 04-05 given the state of the squad and the fact that it was Rafa's first season.  So, what would you rather see--Rafa give it a real go in the Champions League when it became clear that we had a shot or prioritize a league that we were never going to win?  You've lectured us all in the past about how 1st is first and second is nothing so why not focus on the competition that could get us silverware and let the league chips fall where they may?  And, frankly, I would have rather seen Pelligrino playing against the likes of Fulham than against the likes of Juventus!

And, again, this concept of "giving up" sticks in my craw.  There is a world of difference between being pragmatic and giving up--between using your squad in certain league matches and hoping for the best, and saying "The league?  Nah, I'm not a.rsed."  IMO, Rafa honestly believes that every team he sends out is capable of winning the match and his comments during the 05 run-in back that up--he was just as frustrated as we were that his squad wasn't doing the business.  I remember some of his interviews after those disappointing league matches in April and May.  He didn't sound like a man who had given up on anything.

ruskiy playmaker wrote:GBJH's obsession with the league is unreal.

Big Niall wrote:The verdict

Souness - took over an aging but still good squad, changed too quickly with poor replacements and bad man management - terriible manager

Evans - took over a terrible squad, built a team that finished top 4 every season,challenged for the title, played good football, poor in Europe but so were all English teams,left the club in much better shape than when he took over. too soft though for the new celebrity footballer age - good (not great) manager

Houllier - slight improvement in league some years, worse others, spent big, terrible football, won in Europe against Spanish village team in division 2 of Europe (uefa), beat lower league club to win league cup at a time when top clubs didn't take it seriously, won luckiest FA cup ever thanks to Michael owen, Weren't a top club when he left, left the club in poor shape (financially too) - poor manager but better than Souness

Benitez - Won the Champions league with a poor enough team, qualified for CL every year, spent big but no closer to winning league, ridiculous rotation system ensures we'll never challenge for league, been the worst since Souness in terms of mounting a challenge for the league. Okay manager in England (excellent in Europe).

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:

Bad Bob wrote:

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:I will however disagree (again ) that he didn't give up on the league. Maybe before Christmas is a bit harsh from my side but continuiouslly picking Pelligrino for the league while leaving Hyypia for Europe is IMO giving up on the league. I know it was a very injury hit year, in fact we didn't have a fully fit squad from October onwards, but he still put Europe first that season. I'm not saying he always does it although I do think he's done it a few times, but lets just say by mid January then, I'll move it on a fornight, he'd given up on the league. He even gave up on the FA Cup (nothing to do with Europe because Leverkusen came around four weeks after Burnley) but he still couldn't give a monkey's toss about the FA Cup in his first year.

Okay, first off there was no chance in hell of us winning or, indeed, competing for the title in 04-05 given the state of the squad and the fact that it was Rafa's first season.  So, what would you rather see--Rafa give it a real go in the Champions League when it became clear that we had a shot or prioritize a league that we were never going to win?  You've lectured us all in the past about how 1st is first and second is nothing so why not focus on the competition that could get us silverware and let the league chips fall where they may?  And, frankly, I would have rather seen Pelligrino playing against the likes of Fulham than against the likes of Juventus!

And, again, this concept of "giving up" sticks in my craw.  There is a world of difference between being pragmatic and giving up--between using your squad in certain league matches and hoping for the best, and saying "The league?  Nah, I'm not a.rsed."  IMO, Rafa honestly believes that every team he sends out is capable of winning the match and his comments during the 05 run-in back that up--he was just as frustrated as we were that his squad wasn't doing the business.  I remember some of his interviews after those disappointing league matches in April and May.  He didn't sound like a man who had given up on anything.

I didn't say the league didn't bother him, but he wanted europe a whole lot more and that's why he concentrated solely on it. If he was that desperate to succeed in the league he wouldn't of allowed the team to finish 5th and behind Everton.

I see--you are now classifying finishing fourth ahead of Everton as succeeding in the league.  I guess we're on course for another successful season at the moment then, aren't we?   

Bad Bob wrote:

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:

Bad Bob wrote:

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:I will however disagree (again ) that he didn't give up on the league. Maybe before Christmas is a bit harsh from my side but continuiouslly picking Pelligrino for the league while leaving Hyypia for Europe is IMO giving up on the league. I know it was a very injury hit year, in fact we didn't have a fully fit squad from October onwards, but he still put Europe first that season. I'm not saying he always does it although I do think he's done it a few times, but lets just say by mid January then, I'll move it on a fornight, he'd given up on the league. He even gave up on the FA Cup (nothing to do with Europe because Leverkusen came around four weeks after Burnley) but he still couldn't give a monkey's toss about the FA Cup in his first year.

Okay, first off there was no chance in hell of us winning or, indeed, competing for the title in 04-05 given the state of the squad and the fact that it was Rafa's first season.  So, what would you rather see--Rafa give it a real go in the Champions League when it became clear that we had a shot or prioritize a league that we were never going to win?  You've lectured us all in the past about how 1st is first and second is nothing so why not focus on the competition that could get us silverware and let the league chips fall where they may?  And, frankly, I would have rather seen Pelligrino playing against the likes of Fulham than against the likes of Juventus!

And, again, this concept of "giving up" sticks in my craw.  There is a world of difference between being pragmatic and giving up--between using your squad in certain league matches and hoping for the best, and saying "The league?  Nah, I'm not a.rsed."  IMO, Rafa honestly believes that every team he sends out is capable of winning the match and his comments during the 05 run-in back that up--he was just as frustrated as we were that his squad wasn't doing the business.  I remember some of his interviews after those disappointing league matches in April and May.  He didn't sound like a man who had given up on anything.

I didn't say the league didn't bother him, but he wanted europe a whole lot more and that's why he concentrated solely on it. If he was that desperate to succeed in the league he wouldn't of allowed the team to finish 5th and behind Everton.

I see--you are now classifying finishing fourth ahead of Everton as succeeding in the league.  I guess we're on course for another successful season at the moment then, aren't we?   

no bob you know perfectly well I don't class as finishing anything but first as success. so don't try and be smart it really doesn't suit you 

Yari7 wrote:John, would you mind if we finished fourth for the next 3 seasosn but reach the Champions League final in those 3 seasons?

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:

Bad Bob wrote:

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:

Bad Bob wrote:

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:I will however disagree (again ) that he didn't give up on the league. Maybe before Christmas is a bit harsh from my side but continuiouslly picking Pelligrino for the league while leaving Hyypia for Europe is IMO giving up on the league. I know it was a very injury hit year, in fact we didn't have a fully fit squad from October onwards, but he still put Europe first that season. I'm not saying he always does it although I do think he's done it a few times, but lets just say by mid January then, I'll move it on a fornight, he'd given up on the league. He even gave up on the FA Cup (nothing to do with Europe because Leverkusen came around four weeks after Burnley) but he still couldn't give a monkey's toss about the FA Cup in his first year.

Okay, first off there was no chance in hell of us winning or, indeed, competing for the title in 04-05 given the state of the squad and the fact that it was Rafa's first season.  So, what would you rather see--Rafa give it a real go in the Champions League when it became clear that we had a shot or prioritize a league that we were never going to win?  You've lectured us all in the past about how 1st is first and second is nothing so why not focus on the competition that could get us silverware and let the league chips fall where they may?  And, frankly, I would have rather seen Pelligrino playing against the likes of Fulham than against the likes of Juventus!

And, again, this concept of "giving up" sticks in my craw.  There is a world of difference between being pragmatic and giving up--between using your squad in certain league matches and hoping for the best, and saying "The league?  Nah, I'm not a.rsed."  IMO, Rafa honestly believes that every team he sends out is capable of winning the match and his comments during the 05 run-in back that up--he was just as frustrated as we were that his squad wasn't doing the business.  I remember some of his interviews after those disappointing league matches in April and May.  He didn't sound like a man who had given up on anything.

I didn't say the league didn't bother him, but he wanted europe a whole lot more and that's why he concentrated solely on it. If he was that desperate to succeed in the league he wouldn't of allowed the team to finish 5th and behind Everton.

I see--you are now classifying finishing fourth ahead of Everton as succeeding in the league.  I guess we're on course for another successful season at the moment then, aren't we?   

no bob you know perfectly well I don't class as finishing anything but first as success. so don't try and be smart it really doesn't suit you 

Just thought I'd give you a taste of your own medicine with that one, John.  That's the kind of hair-splitting you excel at.

Bad Bob wrote:

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:

Bad Bob wrote:

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:

Bad Bob wrote:

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:I will however disagree (again ) that he didn't give up on the league. Maybe before Christmas is a bit harsh from my side but continuiouslly picking Pelligrino for the league while leaving Hyypia for Europe is IMO giving up on the league. I know it was a very injury hit year, in fact we didn't have a fully fit squad from October onwards, but he still put Europe first that season. I'm not saying he always does it although I do think he's done it a few times, but lets just say by mid January then, I'll move it on a fornight, he'd given up on the league. He even gave up on the FA Cup (nothing to do with Europe because Leverkusen came around four weeks after Burnley) but he still couldn't give a monkey's toss about the FA Cup in his first year.

Okay, first off there was no chance in hell of us winning or, indeed, competing for the title in 04-05 given the state of the squad and the fact that it was Rafa's first season.  So, what would you rather see--Rafa give it a real go in the Champions League when it became clear that we had a shot or prioritize a league that we were never going to win?  You've lectured us all in the past about how 1st is first and second is nothing so why not focus on the competition that could get us silverware and let the league chips fall where they may?  And, frankly, I would have rather seen Pelligrino playing against the likes of Fulham than against the likes of Juventus!

And, again, this concept of "giving up" sticks in my craw.  There is a world of difference between being pragmatic and giving up--between using your squad in certain league matches and hoping for the best, and saying "The league?  Nah, I'm not a.rsed."  IMO, Rafa honestly believes that every team he sends out is capable of winning the match and his comments during the 05 run-in back that up--he was just as frustrated as we were that his squad wasn't doing the business.  I remember some of his interviews after those disappointing league matches in April and May.  He didn't sound like a man who had given up on anything.

I didn't say the league didn't bother him, but he wanted europe a whole lot more and that's why he concentrated solely on it. If he was that desperate to succeed in the league he wouldn't of allowed the team to finish 5th and behind Everton.

I see--you are now classifying finishing fourth ahead of Everton as succeeding in the league.  I guess we're on course for another successful season at the moment then, aren't we?   

no bob you know perfectly well I don't class as finishing anything but first as success. so don't try and be smart it really doesn't suit you 

Just thought I'd give you a taste of your own medicine with that one, John.  That's the kind of hair-splitting you excel at.

exactly bob.........I excel at it.....not you, so don't try and take my mantle or I'll be forced into doing your moderator job