Liverpool FC Forum

by **Sabre** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:03 pm

edit, wrong thread

by **JohnBull** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:29 pm

Compete and Utter Crepe!!!

You harvest your facts to suit whatever indefensible crusade you've decided to go on. Raffa's decisions are there to be applauded or slagged, and just because some very poor decisions have fluked it, does not make them right.

When I see a team selection and end up holding my head in my hands it is not because I enjoy moaning about Raffa.
I really hoped that he was the one when he came but I can see no logical connection wth the way we are now and the Valencia side which enthralled me a few years ago. His team selection, the majority of his purchases, his inability to man-manage these Prima Donnas has me baffled.

I am not looking at the comeback of Xavi and Aggers as the second coming but if the absence of 2 players can cause this much of a drop in form them what is the value of this Super Sized Squad ?

When his name first came up on this form, some years ago, a couple of Valencia supporters posted good articles complementing Raffas. One of the most salient points was that Raffa was known to go on to the club forum and aknowledge the points raised, even to the extent of talking about changes he's made after considering points raised in the forum.

Do not get carried away with a long list of coaching qualifications, any nugget can pass these exams. It is the ability to use this knowledge in the real world that counts. Half of the truly great managers wouldn't get a job today because they didn't have the qualifications but they knew how to get the best out of players, whatever the player needed.

Just as any player can be substituted, despite there being a load of dross left on the pitch, then any manager can be called to account to justify his performance. Raffa is an awful long way from being untouchable and he'll have accept it.

And, once again, I cannot see an alternative to Raffa at the moment.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:48 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:He's better than Dalglish - his poor performances at Newcastle are proof of that.

I don't want to get involved with the ongoing argument mate, but I think you are being more than a little unfair on Dalglish. Dalglish was only at Newcastle from 14-01-1997 to 27-08-1998 . In his first season they finished SECOND in the league, and his next they reached the FA CUP FINAL. While I dont want to create the impression he was a roaring success while he was up there, I don't think that qualifies as a poor performance by him.

by **Emerald Red** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:07 pm

Maybe the Dalglish/Barns partnership at Celtic would have been a more apt point. Horror show.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:18 pm

Emerald Red wrote:Maybe the Dalglish/Barns partnership at Celtic would have been a more apt point. Horror show.

I don't see the point in comparing the two myself. Dalglish was a great player and a great manager for Liverpool, thats all that matters to me really.

Manager: Kenny Dalglish

1985 - 1991
Honours:
Div 1 Champions 1986, 88, 90
FA Cup 1986, 89

Hopefully we will look back on Rafa's reign with similar pleasure one day.

by **Emerald Red** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:41 pm

s@int wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:Maybe the Dalglish/Barns partnership at Celtic would have been a more apt point. Horror show.

I don't see the point in comparing the two myself. Dalglish was a great player and a great manager for Liverpool, thats all that matters to me really.

Manager: Kenny Dalglish

1985 - 1991
Honours:
Div 1 Champions 1986, 88, 90
FA Cup 1986, 89

Hopefully we will look back on Rafa's reign with similar pleasure one day.

I suppose. Kenny hasn't anything to prove, really. Maybe that one European glory that eluded him. Be great if Rafa even manages one Premiership. Just one! :sniffle

by **Kharhaz** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:46 pm

Just to get back on track with the topic, I voted yes but not until weve signed a replacement. Crouch has reached his heights (no pun intended ) by playing for Liverpool regularly and England during the world cup and has a liking for it. Hes not getting as many games now so I guess he'll be off.

by **Ace Ventura** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:10 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:Ace,

Do me a big favour and just read the vast amount of topics over the past few months, and just understand that I am sick and tired of explaining things with solid fact, only to have imbeciles totally ignore the reality in favour of their fantasy.

Since the Derby win, I have posted facts, figures, lists, reports, team line-ups, stats and everything else you could think of which disproves the "theories" of the Rafa detractors, and underlines the reasons I hold the opinions I do.

This situation all comes back to when Peewee had a rant a few months back, where he insisted, with all the credibility of Dr Crippin's defence lawyer, that Sabre had been instrumental in his removal as a mod. The facts were absolutely different to this fantasy, but he refused to accept it.

I took exception to his moaning, and told him so. (Many people were happy about this, I might add.) Thus began this feud.

Fast forward to the "Alonso Vs Mascherano" debate, and the gulf widened. My facts were met with ignorant disdain, not just from Peewee, but also from some hangers on who grabbed their opportunity to side against me. (As I had insulted them some time in the past. Diddums.)

Well I got tired, didn't I? Tired of explaining things so simply that even a comatose badger would understand. But no - these people were insistant that Mascher was the man in midfield, and Alonso was like a bog-eyed cousin.

Well they were wrong, weren't they? Alonso is so obviously the missing link in this team, and when he and Agger come back, I expect Mascher or Sissoko will be the target for the "Fickle Brigade." No retractions or apologies, though, to us who stay impartial to the euphoria of having a new player, and actually base our opinions on time-tested facts.

Going forwards again, we come to the rotation debate.

Many people seem to think I would bum Rafa given half a chance, and that the promise of a 3-some with him and Alonso is some kind of lifetime goal.
The fact is, however, that I have seen what the man has achieved in the time he's been here, and what he's achieved in his career previous to that, and I realise that we have, in my honest opinion, the best tactician in the World at this club.
He's outwitted the World's "leading lights" with inferior squads since he arrived here.
I realise he's not infallible - no-one is. I do scratch my head at his lineups, and his tactical substitutions, positions, etc.

But I am bashful enough to understand that Rafael Benitez knows more about this than I do. And all of you. Every last one of you.

Because he's with the team day in, day out. He's the one studying every minute detail of every little thing that occurs in every match and every training session.

So - all I REALLY expect from Liverpool fans, is a bit of trust and respect towards the best manager we've had (or are likely to have) for decades. He's better than Dalglish - his poor performances at Newcastle are proof of that.

All I really want, is for people to stop pulling him and Alonso down like they're sh*t on their shoes at every opportunity. I get annoyed when people see a player have a good game, then proclaim them to be the best in the World. It winds me up when a player of the calibre of Alonso has a quiet game, and gets abuse you wouldn't dish out to a dog, whilst our periodically heartless Captain p*sses all over our dreams week-in, week-out for months without anywhere near as much animosity.

And most of all, it bugs the cr*p out of me when people don't listen. They say something which is then disproved, but they carry on yapping as though they haven't been placed on their literary a*se. They come up with utter cack to try and re-validate their points, or try to belittle you in an attempt to save some kind of face.

So yes, Ace - back to the favour. You do this for me, and maybe, just MAYBE, you'll understand why I don't bother explaining things anymore.

But this is all jut your opinion Lando. Which i respect, but when anyone diasagrees you go off on one.
Whatever happened between you and peewee is nothing to do with me but if you look back over the last few weeks your defence of all things Rafa has been crazy. Yes your behind him and can use his previous success to back him, but lets look at the here and now. I believe this season we have a major opportunity to win the title, we have the spine of a great team, we are still missing wide players that we can rely on which is dissapointing when we all knew that was were we were in desperate need of quality.
But with the likes of Reina Carragher Agger Alonso Gerrard and Torres we have 6 players that if fit should play every game, we can argue till we are blue in the face about rotation and its merits. But lets just say, does anyone remember any other top manager leaving out there best players at the start of the season to save them from fatigue ?
I actually dont mind the fact that your so pro Rafa, it bemuses me but i can live with it.
Why cant you accept that plenty of people with a bit of a knowledge of football can doubt this will work without resorting to calling them all sorts of weird made up insults ?
Some of them make me raise half a smile...but when its every post it loses the effect and makes it just look like you are unwilling to even try and listen to other peoples opinions.
Which on a forum is a little strange.

by **Ace Ventura** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:10 pm

Emerald Red wrote:
s@int wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:Maybe the Dalglish/Barns partnership at Celtic would have been a more apt point. Horror show.

I don't see the point in comparing the two myself. Dalglish was a great player and a great manager for Liverpool, thats all that matters to me really.

Manager: Kenny Dalglish

1985 - 1991
Honours:
Div 1 Champions 1986, 88, 90
FA Cup 1986, 89

Hopefully we will look back on Rafa's reign with similar pleasure one day.

I suppose. Kenny hasn't anything to prove, really. Maybe that one European glory that eluded him. Be great if Rafa even manages one Premiership. Just one!

We didnt get a shot at Europe though did he mate, due to the ban.

by **ivor_the_injun** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:14 pm

supersub wrote:I just thought he was an unused sub...no where did I see a board held up to say "He's not coming on because I am going to sell him in January"

Don't be surprised if Crouch plays tomorrow,if he doesn't then it just means I won't score maximum points on fantasy rafa

One of the few bits of sense in this thread.

Rafa's assembled a squad that can get through the season when injuries and fatigue hit. There are 11 starting places in the first team, and 30+ players vying for them. He's obviously going to rotate, and some players will see more action than others. That is all that is happening.

Babel and Benayoun haven't exactly figured in every game, but no-one's suggesting that they're on their way out. Lucas Leiva has hardly figured at all, but who thinks for a second that this means Rafa doesn't have plans for him?

Could it be that the people that are being most vocal about there definitely being some kind of problem behind the scenes between Crouch and Rafa are the same people that have never liked him?

by **Ace Ventura** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:22 pm

ivor_the_injun wrote:
supersub wrote:I just thought he was an unused sub...no where did I see a board held up to say "He's not coming on because I am going to sell him in January"

Don't be surprised if Crouch plays tomorrow,if he doesn't then it just means I won't score maximum points on fantasy rafa

One of the few bits of sense in this thread.

Rafa's assembled a squad that can get through the season when injuries and fatigue hit. There are 11 starting places in the first team, and 30+ players vying for them. He's obviously going to rotate, and some players will see more action than others. That is all that is happening.

Babel and Benayoun haven't exactly figured in every game, but no-one's suggesting that they're on their way out. Lucas Leiva has hardly figured at all, but who thinks for a second that this means Rafa doesn't have plans for him?

Could it be that the people that are being most vocal about there definitely being some kind of problem behind the scenes between Crouch and Rafa are the same people that have never liked him?

Not with me mate, i really like Crouch and he has done a great job since Rafa signed him.
I understand where you are coming from regarding the squad but he is being totally overlooked in the league and appears to be fourth choice. Thats fair enough when the other strikers are looking great but they arent to be fair.
It really does look like the same situation as with Cisse and Bellamy where he will get games but they are here and there and not really allowing the player a chance to feel like he is part of the team and the plans, and more importantly prepare properly for the match.
People will say the player should always be ready and while i agree its not as straight forward as that, his confidence must be severley affected.
As i say i like Crouch and if i had to pick a first eleven with this current squad he would be in it alongside Torres, but Rafa sees it different. He will be gone before the start of the next season imo without a shadow of a doubt.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:28 pm

Torres - 584 mins
Voronin - 457 mins
Kuyt - 561 mins
Crouch - 85 mins

Pick the odd one out Ivor

Babel - 321 mins
Benayoun - 235 mins

Even the two you picked out have played 3 times as much as Crouch.

by **ivor_the_injun** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:31 pm

But to be fair, he's looked poor when he has figured. That really can't have helped his chances of getting up the pecking order. I genuinely do think it's that simple.

Once Agger is back in the side, I think we'll see a lot more of Crouch, as Rafa is a huge fan of his touch on the deck. With Hyypia hitting it long constantly, we'd be incredibly easy to read with the big man up top, and it'd be our most boring moments of last season all over again.

by **bigmick** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:32 pm

I like Crouch but it is 100% the perogative of the manager to freeze people out if he falls out with them/doesn't fancy them anyymore or whatever else. Given he's played 88 minutes in the League in 9 games, three of which the star striker didn't start in it amazes me a little bit that some people are intent on arguing that he's not been being frozen out but thats for them to explain and good luck to them

Ferguson though has frozen many a player out in his time, some of whom have been far superior players to Crouch so I'm certainly not going to criticise the manager for that.

Where I would slightly take issue is the fact that we are now reduced to three strikers until January. Two of the three don't appear to me to be quite good enough and it may well be the case that if we come up short this season, it is this fact above all else which we will look back on as letting us down.

Rafa has been called a gambler recently rightly or wrongly, and I wouldn't criticise him for that either. Being a bit of a punter myself, I would be having a think about Babel or even maybe Lucas up top with one of the the other two while Torres is out. Even when Torres comes back, my hunchh is that neither Kuyt nor Voronin are going to quite good enough to help us to win the title.

by **ivor_the_injun** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:37 pm

s@int wrote:Torres - 584 mins
Voronin - 457 mins
Kuyt - 561 mins
Crouch - 85 mins

Pick the odd one out Ivor

Babel - 321 mins
Benayoun - 235 mins

Even the two you picked out have played 3 times as much as Crouch.

Well I'm guessing that's league stats, which is only part of the story. Crouch has figured as much as anyone in the Champions League, and it's not like that's a Mickey Mouse compo.

Bear in mind also that Crouch has three players ahead of him in the pecking order, whereas with Aurelio and Kewell injured, Benayoun and Babel have only really had Riise and Pennant to contend/rotate with.

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