Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Sat May 15, 2010 1:45 pm

maguskwt wrote:Oh ok... the owners tried to find new investment and couldn't and you admit that it may be for some of the reasons I put forward and at the same time I'm the one who has difficulty in understanding the concept. Thanks for patronizing me [email=s@int...]s@int...[/email] maybe you should be BFF (best friends forever) with Rafa if ppl on here are to be believed that he's an egocentric person .

Our debts are rising at 50 million a year and now is at 350 million. Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't pretend to be an expert at these things. Arsenal's stadium reportedly cost 390 million. What is 150 million of new investment gonna do s@int?

And as for a new manager who needs to spend zero and still challenge for the title... pls pls pls tell me who he is... I'll kiss his feet, give him my daughter in marriage (if I had one) whatever and beg him to go to anfield.

A new owner who is willing to wipe off the debt IS a requirement now and at the same time we should work on getting back into the CL and making profits again. And then we can think about the new stadium.

So my house against yours? In 2 years time? done deal...

Oh ok... the owners tried to find new investment and couldn't and you admit that it may be for some of the reasons I put forward and at the same time I'm the one who has difficulty in understanding the concept. Thanks for patronizing me [email=s@int...]s@int...[/email]

Sorry I wasn't meaning to be patronizing.

Our debts are rising at 50 million a year and now is at 350 million. Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't pretend to be an expert at these things. Arsenal's stadium reportedly cost 390 million. What is 150 million of new investment gonna do s@int?

I have already explained this but I will try once more.

At july 2009 our assets were worth £120million LESS than our debt, (Technically a bankrupt company), and our debt can no longer be serviced.i.e. we can't afford to pay the interest on the loan from profits. So unsurprisingly the bank wont lend more money to start the build on a new stadium. We need to reduce the debt down by at least £120million (I allowed £150million because we are a year older and presumably deeper in debt as the song goes, but in truth the more the merrier)

Once having reduced the debt, we can then negotiate to borrow money against the stadium build and the ensuing extra profit that will raise. The usual way this is done is in stages, they lend us some money ...... we spend that money on the stadium, they then lend us some more money on the increased value of the stadium build. We then build a bit more etc etc until the stadium is built. At which time we have a stadium debt of say £350million which if we got our figures right will be serviced by the increased profit from the new stadium.

Presumably during this time we will sell naming rights of the new stadium which will also help in reducing the debt.

Thats as clear as I can make it

I think Kenny is already married mate but if you feel the need to kiss is feet .... you wont be the first.

No mate you bet your house ..... I never said anything about mine.

by **red_guy** » Sat May 15, 2010 2:40 pm

It's weird when some of us here said that we should give rafa more money so he can turn things around. What's the use of having 4-5 more world class attacking players if they were prevented from doing their job such as attack? Yeah we kept talking about the owners didn't give us enough funds for players and yes Twit and Tw@t really doesnt gave us anything to our liking but if they give us sh1t , are we going to stick to that :censored:

and not improvise? Hell, Rafa has his choice, he can change tactics, change the way we play, change the right personnel to play in the right positions etc but did he change? NO... if giving truckload of cash is the answer, then every other managers in the world can do what rafa will do. If he can't improvise, won't take risk, didnt fully utilized the players he has, then what's so great about him anyway? a 'World Class' manager who only knew to work with loads of money? I guess then Hodgson would also be a world class manager if he's given that kind of incentive .

by **Sir Roger** » Sat May 15, 2010 3:07 pm

red_guy wrote:It's weird when some of us here said that we should give rafa more money so he can turn things around. What's the use of having 4-5 more world class attacking players if they were prevented from doing their job such as attack? Yeah we kept talking about the owners didn't give us enough funds for players and yes Twit and Tw@t really doesnt gave us anything to our liking but if they give us sh1t , are we going to stick to that and not improvise? Hell, Rafa has his choice, he can change tactics, change the way we play, change the right personnel to play in the right positions etc but did he change? NO... if giving truckload of cash is the answer, then every other managers in the world can do what rafa will do. If he can't improvise, won't take risk, didnt fully utilized the players he has, then what's so great about him anyway? a 'World Class' manager who only knew to work with loads of money? I guess then Hodgson would also be a world class manager if he's given that kind of incentive .

Or Moyes?
Or Bruce?
Good post highlighting flaws in the "Rafa is the victim in all of this" argument

by **RED BEERGOGGLES** » Sat May 15, 2010 3:35 pm

Sir Roger wrote:
RED BEERGOGGLES wrote:
Reg wrote:Theres nothing subtle about that article, its totally in Purslow's face. Well done Prentice.

I think even the most staunch believers that a change of Manager is the most essential move we could make ,will read that and whilst not totally changing their views ,maybe just maybe proffer more respect to a man who is fighting our cause behind the scenes

I think the Prentice piece will be a real eye-opener for some who until now have been blinded by the tabloids I think it offers an insight into the despicable underhand way this Great Club is being run ..... but then again maybe it depends largely on what the poster or fan finds convenient

This is a distraction to take away any scrutiny of the disastrous fu'ck up of a season we have had.
Rafa is a past master of spin and "factual" outbursts to prove his point. That point being that he is the victim in all of this.
"fighting our cause behind the scenes" Really? Looks like hes fighting his own cause to me.
People I go the match with are absoultely gutted with whats going on at the club. Not just because of results, style of play and lack of silverware. Also because theyre being forced to think and talk about things other than whats happening on the pitch. They want to go to a match full of hope and confidence, have a few pints, watch the game, have a few more pints after the match and eventually go home happy. All this has been taken away with the scheming and public fighting going on off the pitch and in the papers. Although the board has to take much responsibility for this, Rafa has to take his share as well. As bigmick said, it is a sideshow to distract us away from the real problems at the club: i.e. the manager is failing woefully in his duty to make us the top team in Europe and the board/owners is a crowd of incompetent cu'nts who need to sell up and fu'ck off. The lot of them should shut their mouths in public and get it sorted one way or the other. The open blame game is doing no-one any favours, especially us the fans. But to claim Rafa is innocent in all of this is naive in the extreme and bordering on the moronic.

Listen there remains a certain section of fans that "If you listened to" would have you believing that the Manager is the catalyst for all that has transpired this season ,but last season it was the players who solely nearly won the title

Explain ........

It seems to me that fans (well posters on forums ) because real fans wait to see the full picture before conducting a witch hunt ,so in retrospect wouldn't it be far more sensible to wait until the truth becomes available instead of exercising your obsession with ousting Rafa .
I suggest you try using a touch more restraint when condemning the manager ,try biting your offensive tongue once in a while ,and then just maybe you might "and I say might " avoid ending up sectioned in the same facility you keep suggesting Rafa should be incarcerated in ......

Many posters want Rafa out but they do so with respect and proffer real reasons for his ousting ,they do not and I repeat do not bleat repeatedly until becoming monotonous in the extreme about how the man needs treatment

Your on Ignore enough is enough , you silly little man

by **tubby** » Sat May 15, 2010 3:59 pm

Ben Patrick wrote:Bav, now Rafa is with us because he chose not to work with the richest club in the league ?
If you seriously believe that then i am shocked.

The Alonso one keeps cropping up, he had to sell a world class player and didnt get the money to replace him.

Err no mate, he didnt, he could have not treating him like sh!te the previous summer for one.
And he could have said your going nowhere son, your on a long term contract.

HIS OWN DECISIONS MATE !!

Well he turned Real down a few times didn't he? And he turned down Besitktas who offered a lot more than we did plus another English club before he came to us.

Yes he made a mistake selling Alonso but that doesn't change the fact that he wasn't given everything he was promised spending wise that summer. He could well have said to Xabi you are going nowhere but it can also backfire keeping someone in a squad against their will.

by **tubby** » Sat May 15, 2010 4:08 pm

s@int wrote:

Why would you think he is a "nice guy" when he falls out with everyone that says no to him, and anyone that criticises him too!

I think most would do the same thing if they were expected to challenge for the league with the budget we have had each summer.

No he doesn't, he just demanded more money than we could afford, but unfortunately for him we are now in such massive debt that he has been forced to try to manage without money and has failed miserably.

Actually all he asked for was the usual 25Mil he got each summer plus whatever he made back from sales. Not really a lot is it considering Utd spent 30Mil on 1 player. At the end of the day the owners said yes to him when negotiating his contract and they didn't deliver their end. He is entitled to feel aggrieved.

Then signs a contract that gives him a fortune within 48 hours of leaving. (presumably he only put that bit in because he loves us so much )

In todays game that is normal. Any manager at the top level has compensation written into his contract. Would you really imagine he would have singed his contract with out any personal protection?

Please even Houllier got 12mil when he left.

I don't hate Rafa and I am not blind to what the owners have done, BUT I am also not blind to what Rafa has failed to do either.

Right but we are in the situation where we need new players. We wont get new players unless we get more money. We won't get more money unless we get new owners. Current manager or otherwise that situation does not change, and if you think the current squad is good enough then why are some of our best players saying we need better players? Rafa has made mistakes but to focus on him so much is out of order.

It seems our top players want to leave BECAUSE of Rafa, and like many that support Rafa your expectations have become so limited that you really believe we would struggle to find a top new manager.

Based on what a couple of bull. :censored:

rumors from RAWK or TLW?

by **Sir Roger** » Sat May 15, 2010 4:33 pm

RED BEERGOGGLES wrote:
Sir Roger wrote:
RED BEERGOGGLES wrote:
Reg wrote:Theres nothing subtle about that article, its totally in Purslow's face. Well done Prentice.

This is a distraction to take away any scrutiny of the disastrous fu'ck up of a season we have had.
Rafa is a past master of spin and "factual" outbursts to prove his point. That point being that he is the victim in all of this.
"fighting our cause behind the scenes" Really? Looks like hes fighting his own cause to me.
People I go the match with are absoultely gutted with whats going on at the club. Not just because of results, style of play and lack of silverware. Also because theyre being forced to think and talk about things other than whats happening on the pitch. They want to go to a match full of hope and confidence, have a few pints, watch the game, have a few more pints after the match and eventually go home happy. All this has been taken away with the scheming and public fighting going on off the pitch and in the papers. Although the board has to take much responsibility for this, Rafa has to take his share as well. As bigmick said, it is a sideshow to distract us away from the real problems at the club: i.e. the manager is failing woefully in his duty to make us the top team in Europe and the board/owners is a crowd of incompetent cu'nts who need to sell up and fu'ck off. The lot of them should shut their mouths in public and get it sorted one way or the other. The open blame game is doing no-one any favours, especially us the fans. But to claim Rafa is innocent in all of this is naive in the extreme and bordering on the moronic.

Listen there remains a certain section of fans that "If you listened to" would have you believing that the Manager is the catalyst for all that has transpired this season ,but last season it was the players who solely nearly won the title Explain ........

It seems to me that fans (well posters on forums ) because real fans wait to see the full picture before conducting a witch hunt ,so in retrospect wouldn't it be far more sensible to wait until the truth becomes available instead of exercising your obsession with ousting Rafa .
I suggest you try using a touch more restraint when condemning the manager ,try biting your offensive tongue once in a while ,and then just maybe you might "and I say might " avoid ending up sectioned in the same facility you keep suggesting Rafa should be incarcerated in ......

Many posters want Rafa out but they do so with respect and proffer real reasons for his ousting ,they do not and I repeat do not bleat repeatedly until becoming monotonous in the extreme about how the man needs treatment

Your on Ignore enough is enough , you silly little man

Ah the ignore button
Refuge of the immature and incapable
:laugh:

1. I am a real fan. I dont need to explain to you as you dont to me
2 I am not conducting a "witch hunt" or anything of the kind. The truth is out there for those who are able to or wish to see it. Then make your own mind up like an adult
3 I am condemning the manager for his behaviour in public and his inability to get us to at least fourth. I am giving my opinion of how I see the state of play and his role in it
4. I am being as offensive as those who try to convince others that Rafa is the victim in all of this
I have also read through the post and I cant find any mention of any facility or anyone needing treatment? You are doing exactly what I was talking about in the post. Distracting. It hasnt worked. The points are still relevant and need addressing. So you and those like you can say what you want it will not change the fact that Rafa has fu'cked up and our business needs sorting in private.

by **account deleted by request** » Sat May 15, 2010 4:46 pm

bavlondon wrote:
s@int wrote:

Why would you think he is a "nice guy" when he falls out with everyone that says no to him, and anyone that criticises him too!

I think most would do the same thing if they were expected to challenge for the league with the budget we have had each summer.

No he doesn't, he just demanded more money than we could afford, but unfortunately for him we are now in such massive debt that he has been forced to try to manage without money and has failed miserably.

Actually all he asked for was the usual 25Mil he got each summer plus whatever he made back from sales. Not really a lot is it considering Utd spent 30Mil on 1 player. At the end of the day the owners said yes to him when negotiating his contract and they didn't deliver their end. He is entitled to feel aggrieved.

Then signs a contract that gives him a fortune within 48 hours of leaving. (presumably he only put that bit in because he loves us so much )

In todays game that is normal. Any manager at the top level has compensation written into his contract. Would you really imagine he would have singed his contract with out any personal protection?

Please even Houllier got 12mil when he left.

I don't hate Rafa and I am not blind to what the owners have done, BUT I am also not blind to what Rafa has failed to do either.

Right but we are in the situation where we need new players. We wont get new players unless we get more money. We won't get more money unless we get new owners. Current manager or otherwise that situation does not change, and if you think the current squad is good enough then why are some of our best players saying we need better players? Rafa has made mistakes but to focus on him so much is out of order.

It seems our top players want to leave BECAUSE of Rafa, and like many that support Rafa your expectations have become so limited that you really believe we would struggle to find a top new manager.

Based on what a couple of bull. rumors from RAWK or TLW?

Why would you think he is a "nice guy" when he falls out with everyone that says no to him, and anyone that criticises him too!

A lot of those I named he fell out with before our budget was cut.......

No he doesn't, he just demanded more money than we could afford, but unfortunately for him we are now in such massive debt that he has been forced to try to manage without money and has failed miserably.

Actually all he asked for was the usual 25Mil he got each summer plus whatever he made back from sales. Not really a lot is it considering Utd spent 30Mil on 1 player. At the end of the day the owners said yes to him when negotiating his contract and they didn't deliver their end. He is entitled to feel aggrieved.

And you know this how ? Bullsh!te rumours from R.AW.K. ?

I am not going to argue about transfer mate, I have fought that battle, but United sold their best player for £80 million .....and didn't buy ANY £30million players with the proceeds.

Then signs a contract that gives him a fortune within 48 hours of leaving. (presumably he only put that bit in because he loves us so much )

In todays game that is normal. Any manager at the top level has compensation written into his contract. Would you really imagine he would have singed his contract with out any personal protection?

No its not, I have never heard of ANYONE putting a 48 hour clause into their contract. No I certainly wouldn't have expected RAFA to sign without personal protection.

Please even Houllier got 12mil when he left.

No he didn't the TOTAL payout was less than £6million and that included Thompson.

I don't hate Rafa and I am not blind to what the owners have done, BUT I am also not blind to what Rafa has failed to do either.

Right but we are in the situation where we need new players. We wont get new players unless we get more money. We won't get more money unless we get new owners. Current manager or otherwise that situation does not change, and if you think the current squad is good enough then why are some of our best players saying we need better players? Rafa has made mistakes but to focus on him so much is out of order.

Maybe if Rafa hadn't failed so badly this season there may have been a little more money to go around.

So if the money is not there (and at the moment it doesn't appear to be) whats the use in crying for it? Will it magically appear? We have to do the best with what we have until we get more money...... something that Rafa has failed to do.

No to blame the owners for Rafa's inability to get the best out of the players at his disposal is out of order. They don't pick the team, or the tactics, they arn't responsible for his strange substitutions and the poor football we have been playing. Maybe Hicks is the one telling our players to HOOF IT ?

It seems our top players want to leave BECAUSE of Rafa, and like many that support Rafa your expectations have become so limited that you really believe we would struggle to find a top new manager.

Based on what a couple of bull. rumors from RAWK or TLW?

I seriously doubt that you believe I get my opinions off R.A.W.K.

p.s. I am demoting you to a 3 now

by **RED BEERGOGGLES** » Sat May 15, 2010 4:50 pm

Sir Roger wrote:Some could argue that Rafa is a disturbed individual who cant make his mind up on what his best team is. He has to constantly change personell, both players and coaching staff. There must be a reason for this? He has had, as you said, far better players than he has now. But, for whatever reason, he has shown them the door.
Ive said before there is a pattern there for any psychologists among us (professional or amateur) to study and analyse. My take is that he is constantly looking for the players who fit his ideal preffered formation. Sometimes he has them but his inability to engage and man-manage causes friction and conflict (real or imagined) and they have to go.
Rafa, in other words, is looking for a perfection he cannot find, hence the revolving door policy. If he would try and accept that players have limitations and concentrate on their individual strengths to benefit the team then maybe he would find contentment.
As it is he is unhappy, which is makng us unhappy...

Will this do fella ,just one to many inferences at the managers state of mind
Memory going to it seems .......... :laugh:

by **tubby** » Sat May 15, 2010 4:51 pm

Saint you can go on as much as you like but it isn't going to change the fact that we finished 2nd last season and were a few players away from really challenging for the league but then the club had to pay of debts so Rafa was not given what he was promised. The mess we are in partly falls on his shoulders but you cannot deny that it could be a different picture had Rafa been able to get Alves, Simao, Barry, Silva ect...

Rafa won a European Cup with probably our worst side of all our winning sides and you think he has trouble motivating them? Maybe they were down in the dumps themselves at losing Xabi and not getting in an able replacement.

by **account deleted by request** » Sat May 15, 2010 4:59 pm

bavlondon wrote:Saint you can go on as much as you like but it isn't going to change the fact that we finished 2nd last season and were a few players away from really challenging for the league but then the club had to pay of debts so Rafa was not given what he was promised. The mess we are in partly falls on his shoulders but you cannot deny that it could be a different picture had Rafa been able to get Alves, Simao, Barry, Silva ect...

Rafa won a European Cup with probably our worst side of all our winning sides and you think he has trouble motivating them? Maybe they were down in the dumps themselves at losing Xabi and not getting in an able replacement.

So with a very similar squad to the one we finished 2nd with, we then finish 7th, even though the mancs and Arsenalwere much weaker teams, and its not down to Rafa ?

Who sold Alonso ? Who fell out with Alonso. Wasn't fecking me mate, wasn't Hicks or Gillett either.

As for the European cup five years ago, we all know a new manager can revitalise a team (hence why we should get a new manager now), what has Rafa won since he built HIS team ?

Anyway I think that just about finishes my contribution to the Rafa thread.(at least for the time being) I would like to finish by saying that just because I BELIEVE THERE ARE BETTER MANAGERS OUT THERE DOES NOT MEAN I HATE RAFA, it just means I think we could do better.

by **J*o*n*D*o*e** » Sat May 15, 2010 5:05 pm

ffs people its one bad season since he has been here, dont you think after 2 champs league finals an FA cup win that he deserves a chance atleast to turn it around, you would think he murdered someone the way some off you are after his head, not only are we a club dying off the field but we`ve become a fooking moaning bunch of c****.

by **Emerald Red** » Sat May 15, 2010 5:18 pm

J*o*n*D*o*e wrote:ffs people its one bad season since he has been here, dont you think after 2 champs league finals an FA cup win that he deserves a chance atleast to turn it around, you would think he murdered someone the way some off you are after his head, not only are we a club dying off the field but we`ve become a fooking moaning bunch of c****.

Unfortunately it will be the same for any manager who comes and fails to win the title in his first few seasons. Thing is, though, if someone had said we'd have won Big Ears before the league, I'd have slapped them and told them to wise up.

by **RED BEERGOGGLES** » Sat May 15, 2010 5:25 pm

J*o*n*D*o*e wrote:ffs people its one bad season since he has been here, dont you think after 2 champs league finals an FA cup win that he deserves a chance atleast to turn it around, you would think he murdered someone the way some off you are after his head, not only are we a club dying off the field but we`ve become a fooking moaning bunch of c****.

Well said

by **LFC2007** » Sat May 15, 2010 6:47 pm

maguskwt wrote:Well Scott it's because I was responding to all these ridiculous accusations which does not relate to football at all...

Agree with you on that. The criticism of Rafa this season - from some quarters - has extended far beyond his management of the team. Now it's personal; "he's a nasty person/a meglomaniac who only cares about money" etc. I think the extremely poor showing on the pitch and the anger that has accompanied it feeds those sorts of accusations and I don't see that it adds anything to the forum.

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