Liverpool FC Forum

[Ciggy]

Yes somehing did go on with Paco and Rafa but to say he is now his enemy is ludricus, dont you think so?


There aint no sand round here, but what if? ? ? ?

From Jonnymac on RAOTL after speaking with Barrett.

I'm afraid it is more than that - a lot more.

This situation is very, very serious. There is a huge gulf between Rafa and the Americans, particularly Hicks.

"Civil war" was the phrase I heard used to describe it.

This is not good. Don't try and decipher Rafa's comments and the Hicks statement for clues of a 'misunderstanding'. Both sides are seriously - SERIOUSLY - off with each other. Rafa is demanding the support/money he wants to continue building the team; the Americans don't like being talked to in such a way by an 'employee'.

[Ciggy]

If however this was a real falling out over what has been reported who would the fans side with?

Rafa, the Yanks will be lynched if he walks because of them, but they probably dont care you only have to look at the Glazers to know how they operate the burning of efigys didnt bother them

[burjennio]

Nomally I would say Rafa but If its really to do with signing more players I would tend to think that could put on the back burner until at least the end of the Champions League Groups

[lakes10]

I just feel that if you have any member of the club not 100% for the team then they should not be there, if someone say i might look at the England job then they should be ask to leave the club there and then so we can find someone to replace them that is 100% for the team.

if this is down to what radio 5 live are saying then i understand why the owners are saying what they are.

[account deleted by request]

I think Rafa has wanted to get the ball rolling, signing Mascherano and a defender, T & H have said wait until we know whether we have qualified for the next stage in Europe first. Rafa wants to get the deals done before some c*nt of a club steps in, and they have had words.

Just makes me wonder where the rumours of Carson being sold for £10m, Bayern wanting Rafa, came from now. 

Whats happened to Foster Gillette ? I thought he was coming over here to sort out all these problems, or are we still relying on good old Rick Parry.

Whichever way it works out now I can't see Rafa being here much longer, either he gets the money and they get shut of him as soon as they can, or he doesn't get the money and he decides he has other possibilities.

As I said before this is not the Liverpool way and its time Parry got off his fat and said so.

[lakes10]

I think Rafa has wanted to get the ball rolling, signing Mascherano and a defender, T & H have said wait until we know whether we have qualified for the next stage in Europe first. Rafa wants to get the deals done before some c*nt of a club steps in, and they have had words.

Just makes me wonder where the rumours of Carson being sold for £10m, Bayern wanting Rafa, came from now. 

Whats happened to Foster Gillette ? I thought he was coming over here to sort out all these problems, or are we still relying on good old Rick Parry.

Whichever way it works out now I can't see Rafa being here much longer, either he gets the money and they get shut of him as soon as they can, or he doesn't get the money and he decides he has other possibilities.

As I said before this is not the Liverpool way and its time Parry got off his fat and said so.

The thing is Saint the " Liverpoll way" has gone, as soon as the new owners come in the club has to start to be run as a company, If the comapny is not getting the results you fire the manager and change some staff.

Case in point i worked for an american company in london for years, we had the best team yet we still could not get the results the owners were asking for, we turned up one day to find our manager had been sacked and so had some of the board by the end of the year we made were getting the results.

the is a business now and not just a Football club.

[bigmick]

My take as the information coming out becomes a little clearer. It's fairly obvious there has been a bit of a fall out. Those that want to pretend there hasn't been can stick to their guns for a while until it becomes absolutely glaringly obvious that it is so (memories of a few weeks back when one or two swore blind that Rafa and Crouch hadn't fallen out spring to mind).

Having said that, if we accept there has been a disagreement how serious is it? Rafa is no fool and knows if he is going to launch a serious bid for the title this season, he is going to need a player or two in January because the chances are, we are at least one short as of now. It's also fairly clear that he is going to try and offload a couple, with the main moneyspinner being Crouch.

Now it seems entirely plausible to me that he is seeking funds as of now, with the provisio that he will replace the said cash once the players are sold, so he can negotiate to secure his intended targets come January. The word may well have come back, "sell the players you don't want first" which would somewhat scupper his intentions as he wouldn't know in advance how much funds he will have. The Americans might very well be using the example of Carson as a "gauranteed ten million sale" who is in all probability now not worth half that as a lever to put the brakes onto what they would consider premature commitments.

The crux of course is how much they believe in the manager deep down. Do they believe that Rafa will win us the title? This ultimately will decide how they act, and although it seems like a tinpot way to carry on, I can't help thinking that the results over the next four or five weeks will determine once and for all how much belief they are prepared to show in the manager.

FWIW I think the fear that all the Spanish players would immediately decamp should Rafa go are wide of the mark. Clubs change managers regularly on the continent and they would stay wherever they felt their career was going in the right direction and wherever they were being paid well enough so to do.

It's all pie in the sky anyway, as I think we'll be able to negotiate a cast-iron sale of Crouch, Carson and Riise and Rafa will be able to secure his targets with the cash.

[Sabre]

Well to be perfectly honest, yesterday I wasn't giving it importance after reading the article and the little video clip Nanny Red provided. But after reading the whole transcripts, and the continuous repetitions of I'm focused, yes, it's obvious Rafa is angry.


Rafa is not the kind of manager who asks a lot of signing ups, he was criticised in Valencia for not spending much his first season, but he likes that things that are agreed are then fulfilled.

Those of you who would be happy with Rafa out bear in mind that if the Americans are not willing to put more money in the table, they'll hardly back massively a new manager with a new project when it comes to buy players.

To be honest though, Rafa has a good squad to work with, he has stated so, and I think so, so even if the money is cut for signing ups, he shouldn't use it as an excuse. However, if he's asking to grab Mascherano on permanent deal and to have a cover for CB, which he was looking for it in summer aswell, then I think that's a reasonable thing to ask, and I'd understand him being angry.

A bit worrying, yes.

Bigmick comments

FWIW I think the fear that all the Spanish players would immediately decamp should Rafa go are wide of the mark. Clubs change managers regularly on the continent and they would stay wherever they felt their career was going in the right direction and wherever they were being paid well enough so to do.

Correcto Bigmick. A player like Alonso or Reina, what they want is to be regular in a team. If the new manager tells them the first day they're key players, they'll stay at the club happily, it's not about the manager,  it's about the club aswell that they want to be here. (For those who are doubting, I won't stop being a  Liverpool fan if Rafa or ALonso leave, neither )

Normally though, when a new manager comes, new player come aswell and in those cases is when a player thinks about leaving. But Rafa leaving per se, won't mean the departure of Reina, Alonso and company.

[Ciggy]

However, if he's asking to grab Mascherano on permanent deal and to have a cover for CB, which he was looking for it in summer aswell, then I think that's a reasonable thing to ask, and I'd understand him being angry.

A bit worrying, yes.

Selling Crouch, Carson, Riise and Sissoko will pay for Mascherano and a defender thats all we need at the moment even though I would keep Crouch myself.

And we must qualify for the CL if we dont it will have huge financial implications.
So I can see where the Yanks are also coming from.

[account deleted by request]

My take as the information coming out becomes a little clearer. It's fairly obvious there has been a bit of a fall out. Those that want to pretend there hasn't been can stick to their guns for a while until it becomes absolutely glaringly obvious that it is so (memories of a few weeks back when one or two swore blind that Rafa and Crouch hadn't fallen out spring to mind).

Having said that, if we accept there has been a disagreement how serious is it? Rafa is no fool and knows if he is going to launch a serious bid for the title this season, he is going to need a player or two in January because the chances are, we are at least one short as of now. It's also fairly clear that he is going to try and offload a couple, with the main moneyspinner being Crouch.

Now it seems entirely plausible to me that he is seeking funds as of now, with the provisio that he will replace the said cash once the players are sold, so he can negotiate to secure his intended targets come January. The word may well have come back, "sell the players you don't want first" which would somewhat scupper his intentions as he wouldn't know in advance how much funds he will have. The Americans might very well be using the example of Carson as a "gauranteed ten million sale" who is in all probability now not worth half that as a lever to put the brakes onto what they would consider premature commitments.

The crux of course is how much they believe in the manager deep down. Do they believe that Rafa will win us the title? This ultimately will decide how they act, and although it seems like a tinpot way to carry on, I can't help thinking that the results over the next four or five weeks will determine once and for all how much belief they are prepared to show in the manager.

FWIW I think the fear that all the Spanish players would immediately decamp should Rafa go are wide of the mark. Clubs change managers regularly on the continent and they would stay wherever they felt their career was going in the right direction and wherever they were being paid well enough so to do.

It's all pie in the sky anyway, as I think we'll be able to negotiate a cast-iron sale of Crouch, Carson and Riise and Rafa will be able to secure his targets with the cash.

Its not just about cash up front though Mick, Crouch, Carson and Riise are probably on pretty low wages (for a footballer) in comparison to what say Torres is on. Torres is on about £100k a week which is about £5m a year or £30m over 6 years. Thats a heavy commitment.

If Rafa brings in a striker, he is probably going to cost more than we get for Crouch AND probably much more than Crouch gets in wages. Same with Mascherano, he wont be settling for much less than Alonso got (£4m pa I think?)

Are G & T in it for a quick profit or for the long haul? The delays in the summer signings where supposedly due to waiting for other payments, because G & T wouldn't finance the transfers.

[Ciggy]

Hmmmmm......... Since when does Alex Miller comment on our upcoming games 

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/N157783071123-0902.htm

[Ace Ventura]

Obviously we dont know the ins and outs of whats going on but based on what the owners have stated regarding discussing finances and transfers etc on December 16th then i think they are taking the p!ss out Rafa if this is the case.
I know its a results business and they will be looking after there own interests, but Rafa needs to be able to plan ahead and negotiate as early as possible. Waiting until after the United game (dec 16th) would severely hamper this and its also a statement that they do not have enough faith in him.
They cant come in give him there backing in the summer then not back him within a few months just cos things arent great. They backed him then, they should back him now.

As i said it appears like they are gambling and waiting on results before they act, that cant and wont work.

[bigmick]

Selling Crouch, Carson, Riise and Sissoko will pay for Mascherano and a defender thats all we need at the moment even though I would keep Crouch myself.

Yeah no doubt if buyers can be found Lynds for those players to move in january, that will release a lot of funds. If however Rafa wants to kind of borrow against that eventuality, then the owners may well be diggin their heels in.

On the subject of Crouch, though I would agree with you that he deserves to stay based on his footballing abilities, if he has fallen out with the manager and the manger is to be backed, then he has to go. Much better players than Crouch have been bombed out for similar reasons at other top clubs (Van Nistelroy for one), and it's part and parcel of the game but when it happens, you must back the manager or his position becomes untenable.

I hope they can all sort it out and we can put the whole episode behind us. I can't help thinking that the methodology of Rafa's management is at the root cause of any arguments, and the Americans apparent reluctance to trust him 100%. Despite having slagged off the whole concept of "Rafa-style" rotation for the best part of three years however, I hope and think that he deserves to be given the opportunity to prove once and for all whether the whole theory will work or not. Infact the perfect scenario is that rafa accepts that it won't and picks the team in a more conventional way. That way, the Yanks will trust and back him and we'd challenge for the title then as well.

[lakes10]

can i ask you all something, how do you feel about our manager making sounds about moving on ( the england job). i sure he did not mean it but if any of our players said this we would be saying if he not 100 % with the team he can go (Owen).

[Leonmc0708]

can i ask you all something, how do you feel about our manager making sounds about moving on ( the england job). i sure he did not mean it but if any of our players said this we would be saying if he not 100 % with the team he can go (Owen).

Open your eyes, engage your brain and listen soft lad.

He joked that "Maybe if I improve my English, you never know" to which he and everyone of the press laughed.

How is he making sounds about moving on ?