Liverpool FC Forum

[Madmax]

I'd have to say Benny for his attitude. Alonso and Kuyt have been brilliant but I dont really see THEM playing better as much as I see the whole team playing better (having better understanding).

Alonso's first season was brilliant but he never really made a good partnership with Gerrard. He'd always played his best when Gerrard was not in the team (Alonso and Gerrard did both have a good partnership with Hamann). When Sissoko came in he kind of filled the gap left by Hamann but the lack of a quality striker still hindered the team (which basically led to Gerrard being played out of possition). It was not until Mascherano and Torres arrived on the team that everything finally clicked into place. Torres is the quality striker Benitez needed, someone who can play as a solo striker(miles ahead of Cisse, Bellamy, Morientes, Crouch and Baros), leaving enough space in the middle for Gerrard, Mascherano and Alonso to play together. Alonso and Mascherano make a great partnership in the middle which lets Gerrard free to work with Torres for arguably the best partnership in the team.

Now going on to the wings, I think Riera is one of the reasons Kuyt seems better. Since Benitez arrived, the left side of midfield had been our weakness. For some strange reason Benitez put all of his faith on Kewell getting better (for four friggin years). He finally offloaded him and brought in Riera who balanced the team and took much pressure off Kuyt and our right side. I still see the same Kuyt, a guy who never gives up and gives his all for the team on every single game.

Now, Benayoun had his share of good games since he arrived but he has been brilliant for the latter part of the season (where he has been given more chances). I think Benny has really developed a semi-Kuyt-like attitude where he keeps pushing forward and fighting for every ball. The best example of this is his first goal against Arsenal, he could've been seriously injured there...

Benitez has finally got the team working the way he wants. There's still room for improvement but the understanding between the players has been fantastic, we don't seem like a one man team anymore.

good post and analysis, unsure what you mean with riera and kuyt though!

[Number 9]

I dont think Riera has anything to do with Kuyt seeming better!
See this is why I get lost a lot on here and mostly stick to GC..How has Riera made Kuyt better when he has played well only in his first few games ..then struggled since.
If push came to shove Id call him up there with our worst all season(not bad) but how has this made kuyt better?

[aCe']

Whatever man... no other team has a right winger whos better at tracking back and "pressuring" midfielders than he is at crossing and dribbling... id say the other teams are doing ok without one so no reason we wouldnt.... we play 2 holding midfielders ffs give me a break.. and alonso and gerrard and mascherano all work hard for the cause so i'd say we'll do pretty ok without him, not like we have a berbatov, a ronaldo (who surprisingly imo works very hard for his team now) and a Nani walking around the pitch.... oh wait they're still doing okay   .... as for him being a mediocre right winger... well atleast you got that part right...

Crossing aint one of his strongpoints at all lad! Where did i say that?
We are not a team that really thrives on crosses anyway,so thats how it fits together.He cuts in more and plays passes bringing other players into play more than a right winger who is crossing to a fantastic header of the ball,when he is up the pitch.

Bring in a fantastic header of the ball that gets up and wins balls against big hard defenders a lot(like Shearer did) more often than we do and yeah maybe there would be a justification for dropping Kuyt and bringing in a "pure" right winger and crosser of the ball.We dont have that luxury..so as i said he fits!

Love the way you cant help mentioning UTD!!

i never said you thought he was a great crosser of the ball or anything...  and my point wasnt really limited to dribbling and crossing.... which for some odd reason many seem to believe to be the main attributes good wingers need to have... thats besides the point though this argument is going around in circles now .. i say hes the most improved player in the side and now ur telling me about how immense his contribution to the team is.. well... i agree.. for this season... because of all the goals and assists.. if it wasnt for them, id be saying hes been one of our poorer performers because quite honestly (and i know this is going to sound stupid but im too drunk to care) besides the goals and assists he offers very little in terms of attacking play.... if you tell me Riera only scored 2 goals id still tell ya hes been a good buy and hes good enough to make that left wing spot his own....

as i said.. going around in circles now, we both now where we stand on the issue... we move on..

[aCe']

Whatever man... no other team has a right winger whos better at tracking back and "pressuring" midfielders than he is at crossing and dribbling... id say the other teams are doing ok without one so no reason we wouldnt.... we play 2 holding midfielders ffs give me a break.. and alonso and gerrard and mascherano all work hard for the cause so i'd say we'll do pretty ok without him, not like we have a berbatov, a ronaldo (who surprisingly imo works very hard for his team now) and a Nani walking around the pitch.... oh wait they're still doing okay   .... as for him being a mediocre right winger... well atleast you got that part right...

Curious about which wingers in the league besides Ronaldo have produced more than 11 goals and more than 8 assists in all comps this season?  I think people diminish Kuyt's end-product because he doesn't play silky football.  I'd love to know how he stacks up statistically to some of these pure wingers, though?

i dont think many have.... and if you had read my post (probably the one before the one you quoted) you'd realize i give the guy all due creddit for his end-product (goals and assists) this season... he's been one of our best players, and deffo our most improved.... i dont really care much about silky football or however it is you put it, but i think given the trend which is us failing to break down teams that park the bus and defend with 10 men behind the ball, we could really do with a little more flair down the flanks, a little more creativity and less of the predictable -back pass, side pass, kuyt fails to control the ball and it ends up in row Z- crrapp.... I dont know about the goals and assists that A.Young or A.Lennon or Joaquin or MaxiRodrigues managed this season but i know who i'd rather have against 9 out of every 10 sides we play...

[bigmick]

I think on the age old question of Dirk Kuyt, there are some fairly confusing statistics which in many ways cloud the issue as regards his suitability for the right midfield slot. People talk a lot about his goals, and his assists. The stats are impressive, but I think it would be a mistake to conclude that he is therefore the best right midfielder bar Ronaldo in the Premiership.

If you look at the goals Dirk scores, the majority are when he is back post from an attack coming from the left. He gets rebounds, headers and even has the occasional shot himself. In short, when the ball is down the left he becomes another striker. At that, he has done well. Equally, his crossing isn't too bad either, whilst he obviously runs around a lot.

All of the above is massively important to the team, as is the never say die, heart on the sleeve spirit he shows. I've absolutely no doubt that he is popular amongst his teammates, is a nice bloke etc and equally I should think Rafa loves the fact that you pretty much know what you are going to get from him.

None of all that though changes the fact that in terms of contributing to the teams fluency in possession, he probably contributes a negative number. When he is included, by definition certain modes of attack are rendered unlikely bordering on impossible down the right side, and the whole shape of the team changes.

Now it is arguable given his huge contributions in other areas whether or not the sacrifice made to the teams cohesion is worth it, but it is debateable at least. No really, it is.

[maypaxvobiscum]

hmmm..most improved? maybe kuyt. loads of posters say benayoun but i thought he always had it in him to come up with such performances so that wouldnt exactly be improving. insua has been amazing this season too. and alonso has come back to bite rafa in his buttocks for dangerously flirting with barry

[Sabre]

I'd have to say Benny for his attitude. Alonso and Kuyt have been brilliant but I dont really see THEM playing better as much as I see the whole team playing better (having better understanding).

Alonso's first season was brilliant but he never really made a good partnership with Gerrard. He'd always played his best when Gerrard was not in the team (Alonso and Gerrard did both have a good partnership with Hamann). When Sissoko came in he kind of filled the gap left by Hamann but the lack of a quality striker still hindered the team (which basically led to Gerrard being played out of possition). It was not until Mascherano and Torres arrived on the team that everything finally clicked into place. Torres is the quality striker Benitez needed, someone who can play as a solo striker(miles ahead of Cisse, Bellamy, Morientes, Crouch and Baros), leaving enough space in the middle for Gerrard, Mascherano and Alonso to play together. Alonso and Mascherano make a great partnership in the middle which lets Gerrard free to work with Torres for arguably the best partnership in the team.

Now going on to the wings, I think Riera is one of the reasons Kuyt seems better. Since Benitez arrived, the left side of midfield had been our weakness. For some strange reason Benitez put all of his faith on Kewell getting better (for four friggin years). He finally offloaded him and brought in Riera who balanced the team and took much pressure off Kuyt and our right side. I still see the same Kuyt, a guy who never gives up and gives his all for the team on every single game.

Now, Benayoun had his share of good games since he arrived but he has been brilliant for the latter part of the season (where he has been given more chances). I think Benny has really developed a semi-Kuyt-like attitude where he keeps pushing forward and fighting for every ball. The best example of this is his first goal against Arsenal, he could've been seriously injured there...

Benitez has finally got the team working the way he wants. There's still room for improvement but the understanding between the players has been fantastic, we don't seem like a one man team anymore.

Now that's an interesting post.

There are two approaches to look at football. One looking at the players as isolated pieces, take note of a couple of individual mistakes, and then rate them with a number. Reina, 6. Mascherano, 7.

The other is yours, who tries to analyse it as it is, a collective game.

While I agree many things of that, and I agree that Riera has helped Kuyt, I don't think it's the key factor which explains Kuyt has played better.

Yes, we don't have to charge our game on the right any more. Yes, Riera has helped our posession. Yes, that has helped Kuyt to be in the box more often and end plays. But if you remember mate, last season, before the Euros Kuyt also had a boost in his game without Riera. What I mean is that even if Riera helps, I think there has been a natural adaptation to the position and evolution in the role he was given when Rafa stopped playing him as a striker regularly. An improvement of his very own.

Also, you're spot on when you see Alonso's game last year in a context, like you, I don't think players become World Class players when they decide to play better, but I think there has been an improvement in his form aswell, and as mentioned in other posts, the injuries didn't allow him to play at his potential. He's slow getting to top form and he's more sensitive to injuries than others.

Glad to read you again Gato after a good while. And I'm terribly sorry of reading that about your sister, I hadn't seen the signature til today. May she rest in peace mate.

[Owzat]

I think on the age old question of Dirk Kuyt, there are some fairly confusing statistics which in many ways cloud the issue as regards his suitability for the right midfield slot. People talk a lot about his goals, and his assists. The stats are impressive, but I think it would be a mistake to conclude that he is therefore the best right midfielder bar Ronaldo in the Premiership.

Has anyone said he's second best to Ronaldo? If you are referring to me listing the top scorers, I was making a point that he has a good end product (using goals figures readily available), and questioned how many RMs we might consider bettter than Kuyt but not as good as Ronaldo you could get producing what Kuyt does and not costing one arm and one leg? I think too many subscribe to the theory that we can find a winger who beats his man and puts in a zillion crosses and that makes them better than Kuyt, perhaps a preconceived definition of a good winger rather than seeing that a player can be effective on either flank without having to have these attributes as defined within preconceived definitions.

Beckham has no pace, can't beat his man, yet plenty rate him as England's best choice of RM. Lennon beats his man and produces no end product, the beating of the man may be pleasing on the eye, but I can see our fans getting pretty fed up with any winger who beats his man and then his cross goes out or straight onto the head of a defender.

But the fact is that Kuyt has end product, the stats back that up. I'd take 10 goals and 10 assists a season over a player with more pace, skill etc who produces less.

If you look at the goals Dirk scores, the majority are when he is back post from an attack coming from the left. He gets rebounds, headers and even has the occasional shot himself. In short, when the ball is down the left he becomes another striker. At that, he has done well. Equally, his crossing isn't too bad either, whilst he obviously runs around a lot.

Crossing is one area he should continue to work on, but the fact that he gets into positions to score is good. If we go back to a 4-4-2 then I can see him becoming less effective. If anything I might suggest we need someone who produces more on the left of attack, some have said they want Tevez now that rumour linking him with us has surfaced, well maybe he could play the left of our attack instead of Riera with the option to use Riera in a pure 4-4-2 and as an alternative.

If we could get an attacking prong of Gerrard behind Torres with Tevez and Kuyt either flank, I think we'd produce a lot of goals and maybe have that extra bit to push for the title. We would need to give Tevez more time on the pitch than the mancs are or he might as well stay there, I would not move Gerrard from where he has been outstanding, nor would I be two Keane to revert to a 4-4-2 and potentially reduce the productivity and effectiveness of Torres, Gerrard and Kuyt. I think we most often come up short when they aren't having an impact on the game and noone else outside those three steps up to be counted - except perhaps Yossi recently.

Therein lies our lingering problem, the mancs have long had contributors throughout the team who can pop up and score a late winner. We need the rest of the side to do that when needed, I think players like Lucas, El Zhar, N'Gog and Babel would get a lot less criticism if they could be a "hero" once in a while and score late winners. Even if Babel only scored five a season, I'd be much happier if those five were late winners on as sub. You can't expect quantity from players not playing regularly, but they can make up for it not necessarily by quality, but importance. Do any of the names people often don't even mention to replace Kuyt pop up with crucial goals or winners? That attribute can be more priceless than any showpiece trickery that even Ronaldo produces, the thing that puts Ronaldo way apart from the rest is that he has an end product to go with his skill. He's just as culpable for poor delivery, but makes up for it with goals, assists, free-kicks, penalties and dives. If only we had bought him when we had the chance.

For me the big difference towards the end of last season was the system and that got the best out of Torres, Gerrard and Kuyt. I think Benayoun is the best choice to play in Gerrard's role when Gerrard is not available, but I've maintained for a while that we need more goals from somewhere and having four players capable of scoring 10-25 league goals each is a bl**dy good starting point. If we persist with Alonso, Riera and Mascherano then those are three fairly weak sources of goals and goals have to come from somewhere. Axing our third top scorer in the Premiership, who has scored more goals than the named trio between them, then we either accept less goals from that position or expect the same from a replacement. Kuyt, Gerrard and Torres have scored 34 of our 61 Premiership goals this season, the only other two to pass five are Keane and Benayoun.

[TheLad]

Benitez has finally got the team working the way he wants. There's still room for improvement but the understanding between the players has been fantastic, we don't seem like a one man team anymore.

You are making a good point there, the last few weeks we started to play like a team, and the individual performance has improved as well (Kuyt, Benny). Long may it continue, including today's game against Hull.

[Bad Bob]

The stats are impressive, but I think it would be a mistake to conclude that he is therefore the best right midfielder bar Ronaldo in the Premiership.

I don't dispute what you're saying, Mick, about Kuyt's contribution to overall fluency (although I think he gets a lot of undue stick in this department at times...I've seem some lovely touches and positive attacking play from Dirk in the past couple of months).  But, for me, I can't get past the end product.  I think the fact that he does weigh in with his fair share of goals and assists does more than compensate for the backward passes and odd moments of miscontrol.  In fact, the numbers don't tell the whole story with Kuyt, as he has the knack of scoring or setting up some of our most vital goals.  When was the last time Kuyt scored a goal that simply put the gloss on an already accomplished victory?  I can't think of one.  Same with his assists--he sets up big goals at crucial times more often than not.  He's certainly not the most skilled footballer ever to don the red shirt and he can be a frustrating customer when he stops a flowing move dead in his tracks but, feck me, he's been making up for those deficiencies in other ways and then some in recent months.

And, building on Owzat's point, I think the key with Kuyt is the formation (as has been well discussed early in the season).  Stick him out wide in a 4-4-2 and watch him suffer because he doesn't have enough in his locker to play that hug-the-touchline role.  But, in the 4-2-3-1 he has a lot more license to cut infield, ghost into the box, arrive at the back stick etc.  That suits his game down the ground, I think--he's not responsible for leading the line nor is he expected to stay out on the flank and bombard the box with crosses...he's expected to get in and around the box, getting into good positions and making space for others.

---Revised---

After today's match, Kuyt's up to 13 goals in all comps

[SuuPeRrSteviieG!!]

Xabi Alonso by a far stretch, the lad has been outstanding for us this season for both attacking and defensive and hes went quietly about his hard work, he has been the spine of us this season and is a real contender for player of the season. Most people class him in the same category as Gareth Barry, but what can Barry do that alonso can't do ten times better ? Alonso can read the game fairly well, can pick a pass from anything between 0-60 yards ACCURETLY!, also can tackle players stronger than him and can also score goals from all sort of places i.e Own half at times and can take set pieces. IMO Barry can't do any of them even half as good as alonso does and still go that quietly about his work and still be that consistant and prove the manager, the club and the footballing world wrong!

[Sir Roger]

Kuyt
From embarrassing mental case to totally effective striker.
He has been transformed from a duck to a swan and although I have called him fit to burn earlier in the season, I humbly apologise and would gladly kiss his hairy dutch butt for the form he has shown in the last 3 months
Well done Dicky!!!

[GYBS]

Mental case ?!?!?!

[Festy]

by GAYS..........err.....GYBS

[Sir Roger]

Mental case ?!?!?!

Some of his runs, decisions, crosses, passes and shots earlier in the season made me wonder about his sanity yes