Most improved player... - ...2008/09 season

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Postby Bad Bob » Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:48 pm

heimdall wrote:Is this for the season or the last 10 games?
Are people forgetting that Kuyt has been distinctly sh1t until the last few games, talk about short memories.

Most improved player for me is probably Skittles or Bennayoun.

MVP is Stevie by miles and miles in front of Nando.

Young player of the season is Insua.

:laugh:

"Distinctly sh!t"?  Err, okay mate.  Suffice to say, I disagree.  But, let's not get too caught up with Kuyt since he's such a lightning rod for heated discussion based on long-entrenched views.

I think a more interesting question is Skrtel because, for me, he would not be included in the ranks of the most improved.  Indeed, I would say that he's plateaued a bit or maybe even taken a tiny step backwards in the past couple of months.  He's turned in some ropey moments at the back and is still prone to ball watching in open play and on set pieces.  Most improved?  Not for me by a long chalk.
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Postby bunglemark2 » Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:48 pm

stmichael wrote:
heimdall wrote:Are people forgetting that Kuyt has been distinctly sh1t until the last few games, talk about short memories.

unbelievable

Have to agree with that StMick - Heimdall, I reckon you're talkin' out yer hoop with that comment....
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Postby stmichael » Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:51 pm

Bad Bob wrote:I think a more interesting question is Skrtel because, for me, he would not be included in the ranks of the most improved.  Indeed, I would say that he's plateaued a bit or maybe even taken a tiny step backwards in the past couple of months.  He's turned in some ropey moments at the back and is still prone to ball watching in open play and on set pieces.  Most improved?  Not for me by a long chalk.

I was saying this the other day.

Given Hyppia's age, and the liklihood that Agger may leave in the summer, do you think we'll be looking to sign another centre back in the summer? I like Skrtel but he's never been the same since he got that bad knock at Man City.
Last edited by stmichael on Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Owzat » Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:07 pm

john craig wrote:A few contenders for most improved player this season I think.

Dirk Kuyt - Has taken unbelievable stick over the past few seasons.  IMO he has improved this year.  Decent end product in terms of goals and assists, and importantly has improved his ability to retain possession and pick the right pass in the final third.  Work rate remains top class.  I still think we need better quality in his position, but he has convinced me now we should not sell him.  He sweats blood for the shirt and I want him in the squad for the next few seasons.

I saw the thread title and his name sprang immediately to mind so I'm glad he was top of your list. However, I think some people expect a bit much from their wingers because quite frankly between Kuyt and Ronaldo there aren't that many proven performers or a lot definitely better, more consistent and with a better contribution than Kuyt from what isn't his natural position yet how many alternatives have improved like either of them in around 14 months?

On a general football forum someone had a thread about who would be Premiership top scorer. I'm not suggesting for one minute it will be Kuyt, more likely Torres catching up Ronaldo and Anelka as we play three of the leakier defences in the Premiership - Hull, Newcastle and WBA. BUT that list (below) goes down to nine Premiership goals and there were only 15 players in it (not my list so any errors ain't me!) Bear in mind most clubs have two or three strikers, Kuyt doesn't take our penalties and some clubs have high scoring midfielders (usually ones that take penalties and/or free-kicks), so I think Kuyt has done well to be just off that list - not that scoring is the be all and end all of wingplay, but take those goals away and where will they come from? "His replacement" might sound a plausible response, but how many wingers or even midfielders are in that list? And how many score late winners as often as Kuyt?

http://www.totalfootballforums.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46417

=1st Anelka Chelsea 15
=1st Ronaldo Man Utd 15
=3rd Gerrard Liverpool 13
=3rd Torres Liverpool 13
=5th Agbonlahor Aston Villa 12
=5th Davies Bolton 12
=5th Lampard Chelsea 12
=5th Robinho Man City 12
=9th Bent Tottenham 11
=9th Crouch Portsmouth 11
=11th Adebayor Arsenal 10
=11th Cisse Sunderland 10
=11th Taylor Bolton 10
=11th Zaki Wigan 10
15th Carew Aston Villa 9


Kuyt may not be the best crosser in the league, but how many RMs weigh in with EIGHT Premiership goals or put in more hard work? Too many on here are happy to accept there are better RMs out there, but are there really? If the likes of Downing (LM), Lennon, Bentley etc are so f in fantastic then how come Chelsea, Liverpool, Man Utd or even Man City haven't bought them yet - regardless of price. villa bought Young and Milner for sizeable sums with few other sides willing to risk what would be not a big fee for one of the 'big four'.

My point being that we might have to spend a lot more than is worth it in order to get someone better than Kuyt and even then they may not actually be better than Kuyt. I project a £20m winger might do a better job, but with no more guarantee than Keane had of working out. So whilst praising him for improvement and acknowledging his contribution, that line about getting someone better lingers. Then again some popular myths die hard, like winning the title with kids, or like MON being the best manager since sliced bread, or the bitters never spending a penny or having no money, yet having players who cost in excess of £7m coming and going season in, season out. I looked at the latter myth regards "how well" villa and the bitters do on "limited resources" and in fact they are about where there spending says they should be, better only because Newcastle, Tottenham and Man City are wastrels with ijuts in charge.
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Postby heimdall » Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:23 pm

stmichael wrote:
heimdall wrote:Are people forgetting that Kuyt has been distinctly sh1t until the last few games, talk about short memories.

unbelievable

I know, it is shocking how short memories people have isn't it, good to see you agreeing with me.   :rasp
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Postby heimdall » Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:26 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
heimdall wrote:Is this for the season or the last 10 games?
Are people forgetting that Kuyt has been distinctly sh1t until the last few games, talk about short memories.

Most improved player for me is probably Skittles or Bennayoun.

MVP is Stevie by miles and miles in front of Nando.

Young player of the season is Insua.

:laugh:

"Distinctly sh!t"?  Err, okay mate.  Suffice to say, I disagree.  But, let's not get too caught up with Kuyt since he's such a lightning rod for heated discussion based on long-entrenched views.

I think a more interesting question is Skrtel because, for me, he would not be included in the ranks of the most improved.  Indeed, I would say that he's plateaued a bit or maybe even taken a tiny step backwards in the past couple of months.  He's turned in some ropey moments at the back and is still prone to ball watching in open play and on set pieces.  Most improved?  Not for me by a long chalk.

Ok Ok maybe not sh1t but it's only really the last few months he's been looking good, before that he was putting in the effort but without much end result. Skittles has established himself as one of our regular CB's this season, how is that not improvement or do you perhaps, shock horror :oh:  , disagree with Rafa?
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Postby Owzat » Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:28 pm

I see one or two names suggested, but in all honesty some have not really played enough to say they've improved - although some seem completely incapable of distinguishing between between form and improvement. Kuyt has had some poor form, not helped by Rafa seemingly changing his position every time Gerrard or Torres is absent, but he has improved in his role. But on players like Insua, how do you judge if they've improved when they play so infrequently and even then have the odd bad game? You also have to judge improvement based on the starting point of the player in question, is very good to brilliant a bigger or better improvement than godawful to decent? I think too many of our players have stood still, made worse by the fact that a number of them are young.

Most Premiership appearances in a row (selected players)

8 - Lucas (but no more than two starts in a row)
4 - Agger (all starts, currently in another run of four but not all starts)
4 - Dossena
4 - El Zhar (all as sub)
3 - Insua (all starts)
3 - N'Gog (all as sub)

I'm guessing if I asked people on here to vote most improved of the above most would say Insua without a second thought, despite him not playing that much. You could argue N'Gog has shown signs of improvement despite his limited opportunity

David N'Gog (all competitions)

Apps : 16
Goals : 3
Most apps in a row : 3 apps, 39 mins

31/08/08-12/11/08 : 4 apps, 238 mins, 0 goals
01/12/08-28/12/08 : 5 apps, 154 mins, 1 goal
01/02/09-14/04/09 : 7 apps, 182 mins, 2 goals

So in his last seven appearances, five of which were sub cameos of less than 25 mins, he's scored a goal every 91 mins. Sometimes he looks awful, sometimes he looks decent, but to start with I think most were thinking he looked awful without ever looking worth even what we paid for him. I think three goals in a Liverpool shirt is an improvement on his PSG record, for someone playing as infrequently and as few minutes as he does, he does ok. Still Rafa doesn't seem to think he's a good option to bring on when we need goals, Torres may be our most potent goalthreat but even goal machines like Torres perform better when they are fresher and haven't been running about 90 mins. And they don't break down as often if you give them 20+ mins rests in games, 20 less mins for the defenders to foul and kick lumps out of our biggest assets.
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Postby Bad Bob » Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:43 pm

heimdall wrote:improvement or do you perhaps, shock horror :oh:  , disagree with Rafa?

As a matter of fact, I do (and not for the first time either). :D  I think Agger's the better CB and a more natural partner to Carragher when he's fit.  Skrtel has proven to be good enough to wear the shirt, don't get me wrong (he's not distinctly sh!t or anything :D ), but I don't think he's played any better this season than he did down the stretch this time last year.  He still has the same strengths and, unfortunately, the same weaknesses.  Since the question was most improved player in the thread opener he, IMO, doesn't even come close.  He'd be a strong candidate for least improved, TBPH, because, as I said, he's not performing much differently than he did during the run-in last season, after he got the 'mare against Havant and Waterlooville out of his system.
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Postby JC_81 » Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:45 pm

Owzat wrote:..I saw the thread title and his name sprang immediately to mind so I'm glad he was top of your list. However, I think some people expect a bit much from their wingers because quite frankly between Kuyt and Ronaldo there aren't that many proven performers or a lot definitely better, more consistent and with a better contribution than Kuyt from what isn't his natural position yet how many alternatives have improved like either of them in around 14 months?.




My point being that we might have to spend a lot more than is worth it in order to get someone better than Kuyt and even then they may not actually be better than Kuyt. I project a £20m winger might do a better job, but with no more guarantee than Keane had of working out. So whilst praising him for improvement and acknowledging his contribution, that line about getting someone better lingers.

Good post Owzat, and apologies for cutting it up but wanted to highlight the bits I've quoted.

I do think that while Kuyt has undoubtedly improved this season, and that he has come in for unjustly harsh criticism from some, you may be going too far the other way mate.

His end product is good considering his limitations as a player, but there must surely be players out there who don't cost 20 mil, that have a bit more to their game and can still chip in with eight prem goals and a decent number of assists.  We're not talking the impossible here.

I would argue that apart from Ronaldo, you have players like Young, Arshavin, Rosicky, Walcott, J Cole in the Premiership who have better technical ability/pace than Kuyt and (when fit) can provide similar end product from the same position.  Furthermore none of them cost over 12 million to buy.  You also have players like Bentley, Gamst Pederson, Downing etc who seem to have gone stale, but have the potential to do a similar job to Kuyt given the chance of playing with better players.  All are sadly overvalued by their clubs and aren't therefore realistic targets.  There must be countless more outside of the Premiership.

Don't get me wrong, Kuyt has proven his worth this season and earned his contract, but the lingering comments that 'we could do with a better right mid' are probably justified.
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Postby Bad Bob » Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:47 pm

Owzat wrote:
john craig wrote:A few contenders for most improved player this season I think.

Dirk Kuyt - Has taken unbelievable stick over the past few seasons.  IMO he has improved this year.  Decent end product in terms of goals and assists, and importantly has improved his ability to retain possession and pick the right pass in the final third.  Work rate remains top class.  I still think we need better quality in his position, but he has convinced me now we should not sell him.  He sweats blood for the shirt and I want him in the squad for the next few seasons.

I saw the thread title and his name sprang immediately to mind so I'm glad he was top of your list. However, I think some people expect a bit much from their wingers because quite frankly between Kuyt and Ronaldo there aren't that many proven performers or a lot definitely better, more consistent and with a better contribution than Kuyt from what isn't his natural position yet how many alternatives have improved like either of them in around 14 months?

On a general football forum someone had a thread about who would be Premiership top scorer. I'm not suggesting for one minute it will be Kuyt, more likely Torres catching up Ronaldo and Anelka as we play three of the leakier defences in the Premiership - Hull, Newcastle and WBA. BUT that list (below) goes down to nine Premiership goals and there were only 15 players in it (not my list so any errors ain't me!) Bear in mind most clubs have two or three strikers, Kuyt doesn't take our penalties and some clubs have high scoring midfielders (usually ones that take penalties and/or free-kicks), so I think Kuyt has done well to be just off that list - not that scoring is the be all and end all of wingplay, but take those goals away and where will they come from? "His replacement" might sound a plausible response, but how many wingers or even midfielders are in that list? And how many score late winners as often as Kuyt?

http://www.totalfootballforums.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46417

=1st Anelka Chelsea 15
=1st Ronaldo Man Utd 15
=3rd Gerrard Liverpool 13
=3rd Torres Liverpool 13
=5th Agbonlahor Aston Villa 12
=5th Davies Bolton 12
=5th Lampard Chelsea 12
=5th Robinho Man City 12
=9th Bent Tottenham 11
=9th Crouch Portsmouth 11
=11th Adebayor Arsenal 10
=11th Cisse Sunderland 10
=11th Taylor Bolton 10
=11th Zaki Wigan 10
15th Carew Aston Villa 9


Kuyt may not be the best crosser in the league, but how many RMs weigh in with EIGHT Premiership goals or put in more hard work? Too many on here are happy to accept there are better RMs out there, but are there really? If the likes of Downing (LM), Lennon, Bentley etc are so f in fantastic then how come Chelsea, Liverpool, Man Utd or even Man City haven't bought them yet - regardless of price. villa bought Young and Milner for sizeable sums with few other sides willing to risk what would be not a big fee for one of the 'big four'.

My point being that we might have to spend a lot more than is worth it in order to get someone better than Kuyt and even then they may not actually be better than Kuyt. I project a £20m winger might do a better job, but with no more guarantee than Keane had of working out. So whilst praising him for improvement and acknowledging his contribution, that line about getting someone better lingers. Then again some popular myths die hard, like winning the title with kids, or like MON being the best manager since sliced bread, or the bitters never spending a penny or having no money, yet having players who cost in excess of £7m coming and going season in, season out. I looked at the latter myth regards "how well" villa and the bitters do on "limited resources" and in fact they are about where there spending says they should be, better only because Newcastle, Tottenham and Man City are wastrels with ijuts in charge.

I would love to see the scoring numbers for the league's various wide players.  I would not be surprised at all to see Kuyt's numbers outstripping all but Ronaldo's.

(The numbers for Kuyt, BTW, are 11 goals and 8 assists in all comps, by my reckoning.  Not a bad haul at all for any wide player, let alone a converted striker playing in a new position)
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Postby heimdall » Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:08 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
heimdall wrote:improvement or do you perhaps, shock horror :oh:  , disagree with Rafa?

As a matter of fact, I do (and not for the first time either). :D  I think Agger's the better CB and a more natural partner to Carragher when he's fit.  Skrtel has proven to be good enough to wear the shirt, don't get me wrong (he's not distinctly sh!t or anything :D ), but I don't think he's played any better this season than he did down the stretch this time last year.  He still has the same strengths and, unfortunately, the same weaknesses.  Since the question was most improved player in the thread opener he, IMO, doesn't even come close.  He'd be a strong candidate for least improved, TBPH, because, as I said, he's not performing much differently than he did during the run-in last season, after he got the 'mare against Havant and Waterlooville out of his system.

OK I agree with you about Agger, weird he hasn't got much game time as I think he will become one of the best CB's in the world in a few years time. We have to keep hold of him.

Skyrtel and Agger as CB's will be a very solid foundation for years to come.
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Postby loopyliverpool » Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:24 pm

I agree with Redman. The thing is Ive always rated Yossi and Alonso so don't see the 'most improved' tag appropriate for them. Given a fair run in the team Yossi has proven his class and barring the inimitable Gerrard, Alonso has been my player of the season! So my vote goes to Kuyt who I've had serious reservations about in the past. Yeah he had a couple of dips in form but recently he has been superb and I take me hat off to him. He's added a certain amount of finesse to his dogged work ethic and now looks every inch the Dutch international which previously looked hard to believe.
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Postby aCe' » Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:10 pm

Kuyt by a country mile for me... we all knew Benny had the skills and abilities to perfom here and there but cant do it consistently... hes been good the past few months but was pretty shhitty otherwise... Kuyt has maintained a good level of performance throughout the season...while not outstanding he was still a very important factor in the side and his goals and assists are a huge part of the reason why we are where we are today... good season for the guy but the main problem most had with Kuyt still exists i think... he's just not the sort of player we need down the right side given the way we play and the way many teams setup when playing us... someone with a little more flair and better crossing/dribbling in that position would be a step up imo... for this season though.. he did his job.... and credit to him he contributed way more than i thought he would..
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Postby Number 9 » Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:22 pm

I think Kuyt has improved somewhat from last season but to say there is a HUGE gulf in his form from last season to present is just 100% wrong!The reality is on this forum he became a scapegoat last year!People were constantly on his back whinging about him,saying he had a stinker when he did'nt.Match threads were "fuc'k sake Kuyt gave it way again" and all that,when players around him were playing worse and not getting mentioned!
So i reckon anyone saying Kuyt has vastly improved is just failing to admit to themselves they were wrong last year.
The fact is he was bought as a striker and put on the right........... and for some strange uncanny reason(only to be found on here) people took an instant dislike to the lad!

Anyway for me the obvious choice has to be Alonso.He was a shadow of his best last term and has came back this season and played better than ever.Absolutely vital to the team he has been.Consistent exceptional performances making the team tick.If Rafa sells this fella he needs his fecking head looked at!

Also Benayoun deserves a mention too.He's been great where ever he has been put.Has not complained about being in and out of the team.Anytime he comes on he gives 100% for the shirt,like a true pro should.Deffo our most important "squad" player by a mile.
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Postby Sir Roger » Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:35 pm

Kuyt without a doubt
He has gone from absolutely sh'it to just poo









Only joking he has improved immensely and is justifying the faith Rafa had in him
Yossi gets an honourable second
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