Liverpool FC Forum

[Owzat]

Placings : 5th, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 2nd
Points : 58, 82, 68, 76, 86

I would argue that's pretty good evidence of consistency

For a side that is top four spending, you would expect top four finishing. Houllier and Evans both managed top four finishes regularly as well, Evans 2x 3rd and 2x 4th

we've always qualified for the CL , and always got to the competitive stages

Given the qualifiers are generally weak and the groups are too easy to go through, that isn't anything much to boast about.

and only just beating a pointless pompey side thanks to an arguably decisive red card.

your database is usually so reliable

Whoops, two very pointless sides and I put the wrong one!

[GYBS]

But didnt both Houllier and Evans during their time finish outside the CL places where as with Rafa we have had CL footy every season he has been here - also the group stages are that easy - teams like Real and the Mancs have both failed to get out of them before .

[DrPepe]

Placings : 5th, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 2nd
Points : 58, 82, 68, 76, 86

I would argue that's pretty good evidence of consistency

For a side that is top four spending, you would expect top four finishing. Houllier and Evans both managed top four finishes regularly as well, Evans 2x 3rd and 2x 4th

we've always qualified for the CL , and always got to the competitive stages

Given the qualifiers are generally weak and the groups are too easy to go through, that isn't anything much to boast about.

and only just beating a pointless pompey side thanks to an arguably decisive red card.

your database is usually so reliable

Whoops, two very pointless sides and I put the wrong one!

For a side that is top four spending, you would expect top four finishing . Houllier and Evans both managed top four finishes regularly as well, Evans 2x 3rd and 2x 4th

Fair point, and this is exactly what we have. Chels/mancs spend bigger , win more. We spend less, win less.

Given the qualifiers are generally weak and the groups are too easy to go through, that isn't anything much to boast about.

Again fair point, but we do also have a consistent record of reaching the very latter stages...

[DrPepe]

But didnt both Houllier and Evans during their time finish outside the CL places where as with Rafa we have had CL footy every season he has been here - also the group stages are that easy - teams like Real and the Mancs have both failed to get out of them before .

but houllier woulda qual'd more if there was a big4 then rather than it being the big2/3 qualify for europe ....

[Owzat]

Again fair point, but we do also have a consistent record of reaching the very latter stages...

so do Arsenal and Chelsea who have never won it, so what?

[DrPepe]

Again fair point, but we do also have a consistent record of reaching the very latter stages...

so do Arsenal and Chelsea who have never won it, so what?

er... well we have won it for a start.... so we're by definition doing a level of magnitude better than those two...

[bigmick]

Well this season may end up being different now Citeh are around, but previously if Liverpool couldn't firstly qualify for and then get through the group stages of the Champions League it would have been an absolutely awful effort. All the big four English Clubs do it every year, and some of us have been on about it for the last three seasons "the Champions League, how hard it is really?" thread etc etc.

This to me though is another example of people who are very supportive of the manager in every sense possible (which of course they are fully entitled to be) getting a bit daft. How they can tell us that the points and placings of:

                                                      Placings : 5th, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 2nd
                                                      Points :    58,  82,  68,  76,  86

are "consistent", it's a strange one to me. For sure you could argue that but for one season we are kind of improving, you could point to the last 3 seasons and argue there has been dramatic improvement, but you can't seriously call the totals and positions "consistent" can you? How many times during those five seasons have we managed to finish above either Man Utd or Chelsea, is it just the once above Chelsea last season? I suppose in that sense we're "consistent" anyway.


And the reason? Spending, simple as that . Oh, Ok then.

My view is that it might just be a bit more complex than that. That said I hope those that think it isn't are right, because if they are we should be certainties to finish above Man Utd this season now they've sold Ronaldo for 80 million quid and net spent a shedload less than us.

[RedBlood]

negative thread this, were 4games in for god sake and if people think the likes of tottenham and mancity arent gonna drop points soon their deluded
champions league top 3 finnish for us again this season atleast not bad when you consider what were up against

be positive for fu,ck sake this forum has gets more and more negative by the day

and bigmick who said we wont finnsih above utd? and the thing is they have sold ronaldo yes but they have rooney berbatov owen and machedo so they aint exactly lieghtwiehgt upfront its not the same if say we sold torres is it

[bigmick]

Nobody said we won't finish above Man Utd, and nobody has said difinitively that we won't win it, I certainly haven't. I'm not sure the thread is overtly "negative", I understand it is more to do with the owners and whether they'd feck off or not.

On the question of Man Utd and the players they have even thoguh Ronaldo has been sold, that is precisely my point. It's not as simple as saying we've spent more than them so that by definition means we've got a better team, just like it isn't as simple as saying they'd spent more than us previously which explains why they kept finishing above us. That's why I said it was more "complex", because it is.

[maguskwt]

And what I said about not being happy we spent near £40m on TWO players, there have been a few potentially decent signings around for less and we've been left a spent force in the transfer market

The other side of the coin is that we've lost Alonso for 30million and arbeloa for 3 million. On top of that Portsmouth owed LFC about 7 million for the crouch deal so we spent net zero this summer transfer. And I'd take Johnson and Aquilani over whoever you mentioned just now. Rafa is not to blame for the squad being thin this season, he was promised the money and only later on revoked. This could've wrecked his transfer plans.

[RedBlood]

Nobody said we won't finish above Man Utd, and nobody has said difinitively that we won't win it, I certainly haven't. I'm not sure the thread is overtly "negative", I understand it is more to do with the owners and whether they'd feck off or not.

On the question of Man Utd and the players they have even thoguh Ronaldo has been sold, that is precisely my point. It's not as simple as saying we've spent more than them so that by definition means we've got a better team, just like it isn't as simple as saying they'd spent more than us previously which explains why they kept finishing above us. That's why I said it was more "complex", because it is.

i dont thnik it is more complex then that though, why is it that tottenham mancity and aston villa are the ones with the best chance of breaking into the top 4                       drum roll ............................. money simply as that

i think if you consider the net spending rafa has had and the way hes had to wheel and deal like hes at some thrid rate team hes done very well to consistly get into the champs league and do well in it

we need new owners it really is as simply as that if rafa had the backing from day 1 we would have players like aguero, alves, silva, villa etc and im not talikng silly money just the same as the clubs were meant to be competing with have had

[bigmick]

Look without wanting to getting involved in yet another "net spend" debate, I think pretty much most people would probably concede that now the Mancs have sold Ronaldo, they've spent a good deal less than us since Rafa's been the manager. If it is "as simple as that" in that whoever spends the most wins the most, then surely we should win more than the Mancs from now on  Now I'm not saying we won't, but then again I wouldn't bet my life on it happening either. To tell the truth I don't think it is "as simple as that", I think there are many other factors.

On the question of the owners I 100% agree, and FWIW I don't think Rafa has done a bad job all in all but I fairly obviously don't think he's quite shot the lights out as much as you do. That would be my honest judgement though, not a bad job.  I don't think he's fecked it up or anything, but given the amount of money he's been given and the time he's had, I think he's done just about OK.

On the question of financial backing, tempting though it undoubtedly is to list all of the top players today and say "we would have bought these if Rafa had been backed" I'm not sure I buy into it. No doubt people will be able to refer to articles which detailed our interest in certain players way back when, but there is much dispute as to why we didn't buy such and such a player. Sometimes we've probably allowed ourselves to get involved in big willy contests over a million quid or so, and have walked away from a player only to see his value soar. I know the word is that is what happened with Alves, with even Parry mystified as to why didn't sign him in the end.

As it is, it's probably best to look at pl;ayers we have bought. There have been good buys and truly awful ones in just about equal measure, just about summing up for me Rafa's tenure, good bits and bad bits.

Talking of spending though, look at last Summer. 40 million quid spent (presumeably nobody was moaning about that backing) and what did we get? We got a reserve goalie, Dossena, a fella who plays right back who I've never seen play yet as I've missed his windows of opportunity when he's been fit, Albert Riera and .........drum roll (since we're into those).....Robbie Keane (Fecking Parry ) . Now obviously I don't know about "add ons", "take offs" "divide by twos" "take away the number you first thought ofs" etc etc, but it's quite a lot of money for a left midfielder who's worth about 11 million quid whichever way you look at it.

[maguskwt]

last season was bad business with Robbie Keane... however Riera was a good buy and if I'm not wrong was 8 millions. One of the reasons we did well was becasue Riera brought much needed balance to the team. As for Dossena he had looked promising but who would've thought he would turn out to be such a dross.

[bigmick]

last season was bad business with Robbie Keane... however Riera was a good buy and if I'm not wrong was 8 millions. One of the reasons we did well was becasue Riera brought much needed balance to the team. As for Dossena he had looked promising but who would've thought he would turn out to be such a dross.

I think Riera was 8 million Magus, I was giving credit to Rafa for him being a good buy by estimating his current value at 11 million or so. He did bring balance, and despite deep reservations from people like me is a good player and a good buy.

As for Dossena, and your "who would have thought it" line, well hopefully the manager, before he shelled out 7 million quid for him is the answer. That's kind of what he gets paid for. Lets not forget either, that's seven million quid in transfer terms as well, then theres his contract, signing on fee and the rest. IMHO he is an absolutely terrible buy, truly awful and probably Rafa's worst. As a 7 million pound player, he'll be 60-70 grand a week over four years (minimum 12 million quid) plus he'll have got a big signing on fee. When you put those numbers together it's an eye watering amount of money, and when you see him play it's not cutting onions eye watering, it's enough to make you blub.

Even Degen, who I read somewhere we have left out of the 28 man Champions League squad. He'll be on 30-40 grand a week for a 3 or 4 year contract (best case scenario about 5 million quid) and he's perpetually injured, and when he's not, useless. He probably got a signing on fee as well, so in all probability we've spent/spunked 7 million quid in his direction as well. He's another that whatever the duration of his contract is, nobody will buy him and he won't leave, simply because his contract is so lucrative.   

As for Keane, well. Best I not get started there.


Whichever way you look at it, we laid out in transfer fees alone around 40 million quid, and probably committed to 15 million pounds per season in wages over four seasons (another 60 million) and out of it, got a decent left midfielder.

This is where the discrepancy is with the old "but we haven't even spent money we've brought in" comes in with this Purslow fella. His argument it seems to me is that if you give Gerrard a 20K a week rise, that's a million quid per season x 4 so you've just spent 4 million. Ditto Torres and the new goalkeeper coach (and I'm on about the vehicle to carry them all around in, not the trainer), the money has to come from somewhere.


The trick is, signing players who you can move on if it goes pearshaped or they don't get in the team. Sissoko, Morientes and players of that ilk are no problem, but the truly terrible aquisitions are the ones that kill you. The Dossena's, the Babels, the Pennants, the Deggens and the like just suck blood out of the club with little or no return. Even the Keane's  of this world could have proven very expensive, had we not found somebody willing to give us 12 million back of the 20 million we had pledged, and then a calculator which told us that 20-12 was 1, we'd have been well fecked.

[Lando_Griffin]

Look without wanting to getting involved in yet another "net spend" debate, I think pretty much most people would probably concede that now the Mancs have sold Ronaldo, they've spent a good deal less than us since Rafa's been the manager. If it is "as simple as that" in that whoever spends the most wins the most, then surely we should win more than the Mancs from now on  Now I'm not saying we won't, but then again I wouldn't bet my life on it happening either. To tell the truth I don't think it is "as simple as that", I think there are many other factors.

On the question of the owners I 100% agree, and FWIW I don't think Rafa has done a bad job all in all but I fairly obviously don't think he's quite shot the lights out as much as you do. That would be my honest judgement though, not a bad job.  I don't think he's fecked it up or anything, but given the amount of money he's been given and the time he's had, I think he's done just about OK.

On the question of financial backing, tempting though it undoubtedly is to list all of the top players today and say "we would have bought these if Rafa had been backed" I'm not sure I buy into it. No doubt people will be able to refer to articles which detailed our interest in certain players way back when, but there is much dispute as to why we didn't buy such and such a player. Sometimes we've probably allowed ourselves to get involved in big willy contests over a million quid or so, and have walked away from a player only to see his value soar. I know the word is that is what happened with Alves, with even Parry mystified as to why didn't sign him in the end.

As it is, it's probably best to look at pl;ayers we have bought. There have been good buys and truly awful ones in just about equal measure, just about summing up for me Rafa's tenure, good bits and bad bits.

Talking of spending though, look at last Summer. 40 million quid spent (presumeably nobody was moaning about that backing) and what did we get? We got a reserve goalie, Dossena, a fella who plays right back who I've never seen play yet as I've missed his windows of opportunity when he's been fit, Albert Riera and .........drum roll (since we're into those).....Robbie Keane (Fecking Parry ) . Now obviously I don't know about "add ons", "take offs" "divide by twos" "take away the number you first thought ofs" etc etc, but it's quite a lot of money for a left midfielder who's worth about 11 million quid whichever way you look at it.

Stop being a knob, Mick. You know full well that when you add the cost of their first team up it will come to considerably more than ours, despite the fact that most of their players were bought before the market went daft.

Here's an idea:

You and all your moaning b*stard pals f*ck off to Blue Kipper. That way, you can all whinge and slate to your little hearts' content without upsetting anyone.

Deal?