Is it time for the unthinkable? - Caretaker manager time?

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby RED BEERGOGGLES » Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:03 pm

s@int wrote:Imagine for a moment the unthinkable..... Rafa had walked at the end of last season. We had managed by hook or by crook to persuade Dalglish/Hiddink/Mourinho (my own preferences) to take over. No more money than Rafa got maybe even bought the same players Rafa did (yes even Aquilani) The team is then set up for the season correctly, motivated as all teams are by a new manager, momentum achived by early victories ..... we are on a roll. We then qualify for the CL knockout stages (NOT BEYOND THE BOUNDS OF POSSIBILITIES SURELY?) somehow manage to overpower Reading in the FA CUP. Success breeds success, our owners are no longer having to worry about money to the same extent as they have guaranteed CL MONEY, we are a much more attractive club for investors and for commercial investment.

Yes we would still have the long term problem of owners who are lying money grabbing tw@ts, but at least we would be acquiring what I would imagine was the MINIMUM budgeted for, which would be CL progression, a run in one of the cups and a top 4 place to secure our future.

The turmoil whilst ultimately the responsibility of our owners has been exacerbated by our performances ON THE FIELD this season ..... have no doubts about that mate.

A good point Saint ,but wouldn't the investment you speak of  materialized  last season when we where a virtual tour de force After all wasn't it  only a serious lapse in concentration and the defensive frailties which were so apparent  against Chelsea at Anfield that  robbed us of another brilliant chance to progress all the way to another final   ???

I can understand your feeling ,but I considered last season with the sometimes brilliant attacking  football we were playing a success and I think if playing that brand of exciting bums off seats football didnt attract new investors then winning medals will count for little ,albeit from supplying more thickness to our avaricious owners burgeoning wallets  ???
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Postby fivecups » Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:18 pm

Redman in wales wrote:
maguskwt wrote:
bigmick wrote:Rafa was told to generate his own transfer budget, and was allowed to spend all of it plus a bit more.

Really? Let's see, in 2009 we sold Keane for 15 million, Alonso for 30 million and arbeloa for 3 million, to a total of 48 million. And we bought Aquilani for 20 million and Glenn Johnson for 17 million and the Greek for 1.5 million, which is 38.5 million. All of it plus a bit more?  :;):

And I'm sure if you take into account all the players rafa bought and sold at a profit, I'm sure you will find that after 5 years Rafa has spent reasonably well.

we didn't receive the full £15 Million for keane though. We just cancelled the installments that we owed spurs. we probably only received a fraction of that amount.  Though that was the january transfer window.

Working on a season-by-season basis, we've roughly broken even with Aquilani, Johnson and Soto coming in for Alonso, Arbeloa and dossena

2 different sources:

Comparison over the past 2 seasons.

2008-2009/10   Sales   Gross spend   Net Spend
1 MC 48,927,750.00 271,138,500.00 -222,210,750.00
2 AV 23,024,300.00 94,518,000.00 -71,493,700.00
3 TH 99,546,500.00 162,692,000.00 -63,145,500.00
4 CH 42,688,850.00 52,554,500.00 -9,865,650.00
5 LV 86,111,950.00 82,082,999.98 4,028,950.03
6 AR 63,635,000.00 44,633,500.00 19,001,500.00
7 MU 99,159,350.00 64,658,500.00 34,500,850.00

lfchistory.net from summer 2008

Spend ££75,760,000
Sales  £81,250,000
Net gain £5,490,000
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Postby account deleted by request » Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:23 pm

RED BEERGOGGLES wrote:
s@int wrote:Imagine for a moment the unthinkable..... Rafa had walked at the end of last season. We had managed by hook or by crook to persuade Dalglish/Hiddink/Mourinho (my own preferences) to take over. No more money than Rafa got maybe even bought the same players Rafa did (yes even Aquilani) The team is then set up for the season correctly, motivated as all teams are by a new manager, momentum achived by early victories ..... we are on a roll. We then qualify for the CL knockout stages (NOT BEYOND THE BOUNDS OF POSSIBILITIES SURELY?) somehow manage to overpower Reading in the FA CUP. Success breeds success, our owners are no longer having to worry about money to the same extent as they have guaranteed CL MONEY, we are a much more attractive club for investors and for commercial investment.

Yes we would still have the long term problem of owners who are lying money grabbing tw@ts, but at least we would be acquiring what I would imagine was the MINIMUM budgeted for, which would be CL progression, a run in one of the cups and a top 4 place to secure our future.

The turmoil whilst ultimately the responsibility of our owners has been exacerbated by our performances ON THE FIELD this season ..... have no doubts about that mate.

A good point Saint ,but wouldn't the investment you speak of  materialized  last season when we where a virtual tour de force After all wasn't it  only a serious lapse in concentration and the defensive frailties which were so apparent  against Chelsea at Anfield that  robbed us of another brilliant chance to progress all the way to another final   ???

I can understand your feeling ,but I considered last season with the sometimes brilliant attacking  football we were playing a success and I think if playing that brand of exciting bums off seats football didnt attract new investors then winning medals will count for little ,albeit from supplying more thickness to our avaricious owners burgeoning wallets  ???

It did mate, have you forgotten about our new £80million record breaking sponsers?

The problem with sponsers is they don't take into account almost won and nearly but not quite. Winners and losers are all they tend to be interested in.

We need other deals on a par with that one, and the way to attract them is not by ALMOST beating Chelsea mate.

We need success to get the big bucks, the more success the bigger and better the companies we can attract.

I don't pretend all our problems would disappear even if we won the CL and Title in the same year, but we would be better able to manage them than we can now.
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Postby fivecups » Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:27 pm

s@int wrote:
RED BEERGOGGLES wrote:
s@int wrote:Imagine for a moment the unthinkable..... Rafa had walked at the end of last season. We had managed by hook or by crook to persuade Dalglish/Hiddink/Mourinho (my own preferences) to take over. No more money than Rafa got maybe even bought the same players Rafa did (yes even Aquilani) The team is then set up for the season correctly, motivated as all teams are by a new manager, momentum achived by early victories ..... we are on a roll. We then qualify for the CL knockout stages (NOT BEYOND THE BOUNDS OF POSSIBILITIES SURELY?) somehow manage to overpower Reading in the FA CUP. Success breeds success, our owners are no longer having to worry about money to the same extent as they have guaranteed CL MONEY, we are a much more attractive club for investors and for commercial investment.

Yes we would still have the long term problem of owners who are lying money grabbing tw@ts, but at least we would be acquiring what I would imagine was the MINIMUM budgeted for, which would be CL progression, a run in one of the cups and a top 4 place to secure our future.

The turmoil whilst ultimately the responsibility of our owners has been exacerbated by our performances ON THE FIELD this season ..... have no doubts about that mate.

A good point Saint ,but wouldn't the investment you speak of  materialized  last season when we where a virtual tour de force After all wasn't it  only a serious lapse in concentration and the defensive frailties which were so apparent  against Chelsea at Anfield that  robbed us of another brilliant chance to progress all the way to another final   ???

I can understand your feeling ,but I considered last season with the sometimes brilliant attacking  football we were playing a success and I think if playing that brand of exciting bums off seats football didnt attract new investors then winning medals will count for little ,albeit from supplying more thickness to our avaricious owners burgeoning wallets  ???

It did mate, have you forgotten about our new £80million record breaking sponsers?

The problem with sponsers is they don't take into account almost won and nearly but not quite. Winners and losers are all they tend to be interested in.

We need other deals on a par with that one, and the way to attract them is not by ALMOST beating Chelsea mate.

We need success to get the big bucks, the more success the bigger and better the companies we can attract.

I don't pretend all our problems would disappear even if we won the CL and Title in the same year, but we would be better able to manage them than we can now.

Depends if you mean commercial sponsorship or investment in club ownership though Saint.

I think the other fear is that success may not be enough. It may just mean more profit for the current owners to siphon off for their ends. It probably won't be invested back into the club to reduce debt or increase assets with the view to a comfortable sustained successful future. Thats what responsible owners with a long term outlook would do. That is not what's happening at United.
Last edited by fivecups on Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Redman in wales » Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:30 pm

fivecups wrote:
Redman in wales wrote:
maguskwt wrote:
bigmick wrote:Rafa was told to generate his own transfer budget, and was allowed to spend all of it plus a bit more.

Really? Let's see, in 2009 we sold Keane for 15 million, Alonso for 30 million and arbeloa for 3 million, to a total of 48 million. And we bought Aquilani for 20 million and Glenn Johnson for 17 million and the Greek for 1.5 million, which is 38.5 million. All of it plus a bit more?  :;):

And I'm sure if you take into account all the players rafa bought and sold at a profit, I'm sure you will find that after 5 years Rafa has spent reasonably well.

we didn't receive the full £15 Million for keane though. We just cancelled the installments that we owed spurs. we probably only received a fraction of that amount.  Though that was the january transfer window.

Working on a season-by-season basis, we've roughly broken even with Aquilani, Johnson and Soto coming in for Alonso, Arbeloa and dossena

2 different sources:

Comparison over the past 2 seasons.

2008-2009/10   Sales   Gross spend   Net Spend
1 MC 48,927,750.00 271,138,500.00 -222,210,750.00
2 AV 23,024,300.00 94,518,000.00 -71,493,700.00
3 TH 99,546,500.00 162,692,000.00 -63,145,500.00
4 CH 42,688,850.00 52,554,500.00 -9,865,650.00
5 LV 86,111,950.00 82,082,999.98 4,028,950.03
6 AR 63,635,000.00 44,633,500.00 19,001,500.00
7 MU 99,159,350.00 64,658,500.00 34,500,850.00

lfchistory.net from summer 2008

Spend ££75,760,000
Sales  £81,250,000
Net gain £5,490,000

what about summer 2009? - thats the one we're talking about....
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Postby account deleted by request » Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:30 pm

Both mate. Its always easier to sell a successful product, especially when the owners have unrealistic expectations of their returns. Get the sponsorship deals in, and the club is a more attractive investment for someone.

btw I don't think the owners would have any option but to pay down the debt mate. My understanding is that RBS have INSISTED that the debt be reduced, so I really think that any extra money WOULD be used to reduce the debt.
Last edited by account deleted by request on Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Redman in wales » Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:38 pm

s@int wrote:
RED BEERGOGGLES wrote:
s@int wrote:
bigmick wrote:I don't buy it. Get a top manager in and tell him he has zero money to spend, but he can keep the players he already has. We'd launch a sustained title challenge next season, new owners or no new owners.

This is the point that I totally believe. I THINK THE TEAM HAS UNDERPERFORMED MASSIVELY this season, and while I am willing to accept that last season was something of an anomaly as we had more than our share of good luck etc etc I still believe we have a good enough team to have made a title challenge this season.

We need someone who can get the best out of our team, someone who can adapt the formation when we have injury problems or players are out of form.

In our present circumstances (no money) we need a manager who can inspire the players to perform to their best level week in week out.

Yes we need new owners to build on what we have, but we need a new approach to get the best out of what we already have.

Saint while you consider last season as an anomaly ,surely in retrospect such a description could be used to describe this season also    ???

I was willing to accept last season as being an anomaly .....AS SUGGESTED BY THE PRO-RAFALITES mate  :D I am quite happy that that is the level we should be attaining EVERY YEAR.

For me last season was all about momentum. We won a few early games that could have gone either way, gained momentum and were on a roll until we had our usual midseason blip and then when all seemed lost, gained momentum again after our incredible performance against Madrid.

We are a much better team than we are showing at the moment mate. I have thought since the end of 2006 that we have underperformed badly in the league, and while last season may have flattered us a little, I think its not unreasonable to expect around 80+ points a season.

In a way last season was the anomolly.

Its the only season during the benitez reign where we've had automatic champions league qualification. His league finishes have been 5,3,3,4,2 then now what will be : 5 / 6 / 7

Benitez has one system  - only one way he likes to play. Last year he had the players to fit the system. this year, minus alonso and also with the single striker in his system injured, he cant change the system. he has no plan b - not just in terms of subsitutions, or the odd game, but in general. 4-2-3-1 or however you write it down hasn't worked for us this season, but does he change it in October? no. December? no. March? no. Does he persist in playing lucas over £20m aquilani? yes.

Last season worked for him, and even with chelsea & utds poor start then doing the double over utd, wasn't enough to win us the league. I just think he's taken us as far as he can.
Last edited by Redman in wales on Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby RED BEERGOGGLES » Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:23 pm

s@int wrote:
RED BEERGOGGLES wrote:
s@int wrote:Imagine for a moment the unthinkable..... Rafa had walked at the end of last season. We had managed by hook or by crook to persuade Dalglish/Hiddink/Mourinho (my own preferences) to take over. No more money than Rafa got maybe even bought the same players Rafa did (yes even Aquilani) The team is then set up for the season correctly, motivated as all teams are by a new manager, momentum achived by early victories ..... we are on a roll. We then qualify for the CL knockout stages (NOT BEYOND THE BOUNDS OF POSSIBILITIES SURELY?) somehow manage to overpower Reading in the FA CUP. Success breeds success, our owners are no longer having to worry about money to the same extent as they have guaranteed CL MONEY, we are a much more attractive club for investors and for commercial investment.

Yes we would still have the long term problem of owners who are lying money grabbing tw@ts, but at least we would be acquiring what I would imagine was the MINIMUM budgeted for, which would be CL progression, a run in one of the cups and a top 4 place to secure our future.

The turmoil whilst ultimately the responsibility of our owners has been exacerbated by our performances ON THE FIELD this season ..... have no doubts about that mate.

A good point Saint ,but wouldn't the investment you speak of  materialized  last season when we where a virtual tour de force After all wasn't it  only a serious lapse in concentration and the defensive frailties which were so apparent  against Chelsea at Anfield that  robbed us of another brilliant chance to progress all the way to another final   ???

I can understand your feeling ,but I considered last season with the sometimes brilliant attacking  football we were playing a success and I think if playing that brand of exciting bums off seats football didnt attract new investors then winning medals will count for little ,albeit from supplying more thickness to our avaricious owners burgeoning wallets  ???

It did mate, have you forgotten about our new £80million record breaking sponsers?

The problem with sponsers is they don't take into account almost won and nearly but not quite. Winners and losers are all they tend to be interested in.

We need other deals on a par with that one, and the way to attract them is not by ALMOST beating Chelsea mate.

We need success to get the big bucks, the more success the bigger and better the companies we can attract.

I don't pretend all our problems would disappear even if we won the CL and Title in the same year, but we would be better able to manage them than we can now.

I haven't forgotten the Sponsors Saint ,do you suppose they will let us keep the lovely  shirts when we are playing in the Championship or  is it more likely a new sponsor will emerge something along the lines of Greggs The Bakers or Oxo with the slogan crumbles easier than a fallen Giant  :D
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