Dirk kuyt - Peace everyone

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Sir Roger » Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:30 pm

tonyeh wrote:Hmmm...I seem to remember Dirk Kuyt being pretty average before Christmas last season too. It was really only in the second half of the season that he did well...and by "well" I mean be in the right place at the right time for a rebound or the like.

On the whole though I think Kuyt, like Liverpool in general overachieved last season and I don't expect to see it repeated this year.

I really wish he would tap into that awareness that he managed to mine last season. More bodies in the box = more goals.

I disagree that we overachieved last season.
I believe were under achieving this season though
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Postby tonyeh » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:50 am

Fair enough, you cn disagree all you like. But Liverpool, bar 3 months of great football, played some incredibly dull matches and rode their luck to a very large degree.

Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal were all off the boil at stretches in the season too and if they hadn't been, there was no way Liverpool would have ended in 2nd place. A place which flattered to deceive and that should be obvious to everyone now.
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Postby Benny The Noon » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:31 pm

So what if we rode our luck and got some lucky wins last season - havent man utd made that their way of winning titles - grinding out wins etc . We deserved to be in second last season and we didnt over achieve - this season we are massively underachieving at the moment .



As for Kuyt its no surprise that when we play poor he comes in for critisim (when it should be the whole load of them ) yet when we are winning and scoring goals there is just silence .
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Postby Redman in wales » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:40 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:Could it be that Kuyt's form is linked in with that of the team?

well thats like the chicken and the egg senario.


is it the poor form of kuyt and a couple of other players that brings the team down, eg if kuyt stops creating, scoring and playing well, the team suffer as a consequence

or like lando's put, the teams performance has a negative effect of individuals and it becomes like a epidemic, and very few play to the levels which we know they can.

now its probably a bit of both, dragging each other down.... but what was the trigger.... ?
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Postby made in UK » Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:54 pm

Redman in wales wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:Could it be that Kuyt's form is linked in with that of the team?

well thats like the chicken and the egg senario.


is it the poor form of kuyt and a couple of other players that brings the team down, eg if kuyt stops creating, scoring and playing well, the team suffer as a consequence

or like lando's put, the teams performance has a negative effect of individuals and it becomes like a epidemic, and very few play to the levels which we know they can.

now its probably a bit of both, dragging each other down.... but what was the trigger.... ?

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Postby LFC2007 » Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:13 pm

Kuyt's best football came when the team was performing at its peak level. That performance was mainly being measured in terms of goals (and crucial ones at that), assists, and sheer diligence, because we know he's fairly limited in his general play; his passing and first touch in particular, but also his movement and vision. Although the latter fall victim to the former, and thus when we're making a mental note of his performance, a badly executed pass will take precedence over the creative intent in it.

Since the team's performance fell of a cliff, it's no surprise to see Kuyt - as someone who lacks individual ability and whose contribution is more dependent on the team's general play being better (in order to enable him to move into those dangerous positions in the attacking third that he frequently found himself in last term) being particularly affected. In an attacking capacity, he's a confidence player more than most, so the volatility in the team's performance at both ends of the pitch will weigh heavily on his mind and morale. Once we've established the basics of a decent team i.e. clean sheets and coherent attacking play, his contributions will begin to show again because he'll not only be making more frequent forays into the box, he'll be sticking them away and putting them on a plate for others.
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Postby tonyeh » Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:37 am

Benny The Noon wrote:So what if we rode our luck and got some lucky wins last season - havent man utd made that their way of winning titles - grinding out wins etc . We deserved to be in second last season and we didnt over achieve - this season we are massively underachieving at the moment .

Big deal if Utd got some luck too. That's such a non-argument.

Liverpool, for many seasons now have had to rely on the "others" screwing up their seasons in order to compete for the title. We desperately need that again this year and frankly I'm sick of that. That's the huge difference in the so-called big 4 title winners.

For me, this season is simply the chickens coming home to roost. It's been coming for a couple of seasons now. The limitations of management decisions (not just Benitez) have come together and the result is what we are seeing at present.

I don't think we're "underachieving" at all. Events laid down in past decisons have simply conspired to produce the result.

I found it laughable that people (Alan Hansen etc) were picking Liverpool to win the title pre-season, when the squad was left so unbelievably weak. I didn't think, however, that the failure would be so spectacular though.
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Postby The_Rock » Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:29 am

A good analysis of "the best right winger" in the premierleague....

Not as good as Owzat's stats :p ....but good non-the-ess.....

In the nutsell........just drop until his form comes back or when the 1st team is fit to go.

Liverpool need:

1. A consistently effective right-midfielder
2. Who contributes goals and assists regularly throughout the season, and:
3. Does not routinely have barren spells with very little end product.

Dirk Kuyt is not the answer.


http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2009....ka.html

DIRK KUYT and the "Curse of the barren spell" (or why Liverpool can do better on the right)

Dirk Kuyt's supporters are always trying to convince everyone he deserves his place in the team because he's so 'hard-working', has 'endless stamina' and gives his all for the team. Well, that may be the case but as I will illustrate, Rafa Benitez's continued favouritism for the player has had - and is having - a negative impact on Liverpool FC's attacking effectiveness.

I have nothing against Dirk Kuyt - he has, at times, been a valuable player for Liverpool. However, I simply refuse to accept that of all the players in world football, he is the best the club can do on the right.

Here is why (and this is a point I've made regularly over the last 3 years): Every season, Kuyt has a tendency to go through one or more barren spells, where he contributes next to nothing to the team and becomes a passenger. And more often than not, Kuyt's barren spells coincide with Liverpool going on a bad/indifferent run of form.

Here are some examples:

Read more: http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2009....t4muIDq


Season          Months     Run of Games    Goals     Assists

2006-07     Feb to May         17                  4           1
2007-08     Oct to Feb          20                  2           0
2007-08     Mar to May         13                  1           3
2008-09     Aug to Sep          12                  1           2
2008-09     Nov to Mar          21                  2           1
2009-10     Sep to Nov         11                   0           1



As you can see, every season since Kuyt arrived there have been long periods where he has contributed very little as an attacking force.

Take last season for example - even though he ended up with a decent goals/assists ratio, there was still a 4 month period where he started 21 games and only came up with 2 goals and 1 assist. Incidentally, that 4 month period was Liverpool's most ineffective of the season.

And how about this season? In his last 11 games, Kuyt has managed 1 measly assist and that's it. Is that good enough? Should we just accept that kind of return because he works hard? It's all well and good having a right midfielder who runs 30 miles every game, but where is the *consistent* end product?

For me, this is the key issue. Just imagine if we'd had a right-winger over the last few years who scored/created goals consistently, and did not regularly go through mammoth barren spells? A few extra goals/assists here and there would have been very valuable, would they not?

For the last 11 games, the plain fact is Kuyt has not been doing his job as an attacking player. A few more goals/assists here and there from one of Liverpool's most senior players may have turned draws into wins and defeats into draws.

Is this the best Liverpool can do on the right? Can we afford to persist with a player who regularly becomes a passenger for long stretches every season? What is a right midfielder's primary purpose? Surely it is to attack and score/create goals..or am I wrong about that?

Tracking back and defending is all well and good, but Kuyt is (or is suppose to be) an attacking player. That means a more consistent level of goals and assists is required. And it's not as if Kuyt doesn't get the chance to contribute - he starts almost every game (!) and has plenty of time to play himself into form.

Yes, every player goes through rough patches, but just look again at the table above: that is a concerning number of rough patches! And that table does not include Kuyt's many 5-8 game barren spells throughout the last 4 years.

Kuyt still has a part to play at Liverpool but proceeding with him as first choice right-midfielder is a mistake in my opinion.

A change is required. Yesterday, I suggested that Glen Johnson should be converted into a right winger, with Kuyt sharing the position and becoming more of a squad player. I stand by that.

Liverpool need:

1. A consistently effective right-midfielder
2. Who contributes goals and assists regularly throughout the season, and:
3. Does not routinely have barren spells with very little end product.

Dirk Kuyt is not the answer.

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Postby aCe' » Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:25 am

another talentless average player who isnt good enough to start for the side... vastly overrared by our own and is easily the weakest link in our attacking setup... Funny how all the talk is about replacing Riera... Names mentioned are always of left wingers... the likes of Mata and Silva..etc...

After we get our backup FW and CB problems sorted out, i think our main priority should be bringing in a quality right winger who can actually contribute positively to our attacking play and our possession game....

For now, i'd have Benny in the side ahead of Kuyt when everyone is fit...
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Postby Fowler_E7 » Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:18 pm

aCe' wrote:another talentless average player who isnt good enough to start for the side... vastly overrared by our own and is easily the weakest link in our attacking setup... Funny how all the talk is about replacing Riera... Names mentioned are always of left wingers... the likes of Mata and Silva..etc...

After we get our backup FW and CB problems sorted out, i think our main priority should be bringing in a quality right winger who can actually contribute positively to our attacking play and our possession game....

For now, i'd have Benny in the side ahead of Kuyt when everyone is fit...

same here, im astounded at how many liverpool fans consider Kuyt an integral member of the team. He is a very ordinary player who has good spells every now and then, but he is far too limited to be considered a first team regular IMO, especially when the first team is playing badly. Benayoun ahead of him all day if it was up to me.
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Postby Penguins » Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:51 am

I have been saying that for years now. Even though I am a supporter of Rafa and his abilities if there is something that will make me finally loose faith it will be his consistant favourtism of Kuyt.

It was a long time ago such an ordinary player skillwise playing regularly for this club. I mean I have a big Liverpool heart and I'd play for free and bleed for the club, but that still shouldn't make me a an important player or even get a chance at such a big club. He is also soon 30 and I'd say it is time to cash in while we still can.
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Postby maypaxvobiscum » Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:04 am

Penguins wrote:I have been saying that for years now. Even though I am a supporter of Rafa and his abilities if there is something that will make me finally loose faith it will be his consistant favourtism of Kuyt.

It was a long time ago such an ordinary player skillwise playing regularly for this club. I mean I have a big Liverpool heart and I'd play for free and bleed for the club, but that still shouldn't make me a an important player or even get a chance at such a big club. He is also soon 30 and I'd say it is time to cash in while we still can.

never knew he was that old already. but yeah if he is nearing 30, cash in. the most limited player ive ever seen in my life.
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Postby tonyeh » Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:14 am

maypaxvobiscum wrote:
Penguins wrote:I have been saying that for years now. Even though I am a supporter of Rafa and his abilities if there is something that will make me finally loose faith it will be his consistant favourtism of Kuyt.

It was a long time ago such an ordinary player skillwise playing regularly for this club. I mean I have a big Liverpool heart and I'd play for free and bleed for the club, but that still shouldn't make me a an important player or even get a chance at such a big club. He is also soon 30 and I'd say it is time to cash in while we still can.

never knew he was that old already. but yeah if he is nearing 30, cash in. the most limited player ive ever seen in my life.

Ah come on. That's a bit much. I've never been a Kuytee, but I'd have him in the squad over Lucas any day of the week.
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Postby maypaxvobiscum » Sun Nov 15, 2009 10:15 am

tonyeh wrote:
maypaxvobiscum wrote:
Penguins wrote:I have been saying that for years now. Even though I am a supporter of Rafa and his abilities if there is something that will make me finally loose faith it will be his consistant favourtism of Kuyt.

It was a long time ago such an ordinary player skillwise playing regularly for this club. I mean I have a big Liverpool heart and I'd play for free and bleed for the club, but that still shouldn't make me a an important player or even get a chance at such a big club. He is also soon 30 and I'd say it is time to cash in while we still can.

never knew he was that old already. but yeah if he is nearing 30, cash in. the most limited player ive ever seen in my life.

Ah come on. That's a bit much. I've never been a Kuytee, but I'd have him in the squad over Lucas any day of the week.

true. but still limited  :D says alot about the strength of the team though doesnt it? and with Mash looking to be on his way to Barca, things look very bleak  :(
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Postby The_Rock » Sun Nov 15, 2009 10:29 am

It then "begs to wonder" why then did we give him a long-term deal (with a hefty pay rise) don't we.

Nobody will pay 10 million for him now.....So we are stuck with him unless we are willing to accept 5 or 6 million for him. I know the ex-spurs manager is a big fan of him. Heck i think i read some where even MON is a sort of a fan for him (called him a 20/20 striker...20 goals plus 20 assists type of player). Maybe we can exchange him for ashley young + cash.
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