Job too big for Rodgers?

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Is the job too big for Rodgers and last season was a flash in the pan down to Suarez carrying us?

Yes
43
55%
No
28
36%
Not sure
7
9%
 
Total votes : 78

Postby red till i die!! » Mon Jan 12, 2015 1:27 pm

I thinks ayres mentality is that you should be jumping at the chance to play for us which is all well and good when your target is a nobody. That same approach doesn't work when it comes to established players who have their choice of a number of clubs. We have no problem tying up deals for nobodys but as soon as we face a bit of competition from a decent club we lose out.

The deals we are putting on the table aren't good enough to attract this top tier of talent, Thats the bottom line and why we go for players who can't believe a club like liverpool are signing them. These are the types of players we sign because established players don't want entry level wages or to have to prove themselves again.

We would have been better off if rodgers only bought 6 players since he came in and they made it to the 1st team rather than the multitude of signings we did make. You have to ask what was the point when you look at the players we are now linked with. All squad players and certainly no better than what we have or spent money on already. Fabian Delph ffs  :down: Even milner and the only reason we are even sniffing around him is because he is on a bosman. All cheap options to fill a squad when at this point we should be putting the finishing touches to it.
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Postby maguskwt » Mon Jan 12, 2015 2:31 pm

red till i die!! » Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:27 pm wrote:I thinks ayres mentality is that you should be jumping at the chance to play for us which is all well and good when your target is a nobody. That same approach doesn't work when it comes to established players who have their choice of a number of clubs. We have no problem tying up deals for nobodys but as soon as we face a bit of competition from a decent club we lose out.

The deals we are putting on the table aren't good enough to attract this top tier of talent, Thats the bottom line and why we go for players who can't believe a club like liverpool are signing them. These are the types of players we sign because established players don't want entry level wages or to have to prove themselves again.

We would have been better off if rodgers only bought 6 players since he came in and they made it to the 1st team rather than the multitude of signings we did make. You have to ask what was the point when you look at the players we are now linked with. All squad players and certainly no better than what we have or spent money on already. Fabian Delph ffs  :down: Even milner and the only reason we are even sniffing around him is because he is on a bosman. All cheap options to fill a squad when at this point we should be putting the finishing touches to it.


This I agree with totally... We already have the so-called fancy footwork-ers and the flare players. What we need now is 3 spine/ core players, a goalkeeper, a dominating CM and a consistent scorer. I would be over the moon if we could sign Begovic, Barkley and Higuain, but I doubt it would happen. FSG needs to support Rodgers all the way, and Rodgers himself said that we need to sign world class names to replace the likes of Gerrard and Suarez and not potential. The salary coming off of Gerrard and Suarez is substantial, so I think it can happen. If it doesn't happen, I would be very disappointed with FSG.
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Postby Kash_Mountain » Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:25 pm

maguskwt » Jan 12th, '15, 14:31 wrote:
red till i die!! » Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:27 pm wrote:I thinks ayres mentality is that you should be jumping at the chance to play for us which is all well and good when your target is a nobody. That same approach doesn't work when it comes to established players who have their choice of a number of clubs. We have no problem tying up deals for nobodys but as soon as we face a bit of competition from a decent club we lose out.

The deals we are putting on the table aren't good enough to attract this top tier of talent, Thats the bottom line and why we go for players who can't believe a club like liverpool are signing them. These are the types of players we sign because established players don't want entry level wages or to have to prove themselves again.

We would have been better off if rodgers only bought 6 players since he came in and they made it to the 1st team rather than the multitude of signings we did make. You have to ask what was the point when you look at the players we are now linked with. All squad players and certainly no better than what we have or spent money on already. Fabian Delph ffs  :down: Even milner and the only reason we are even sniffing around him is because he is on a bosman. All cheap options to fill a squad when at this point we should be putting the finishing touches to it.


This I agree with totally... We already have the so-called fancy footwork-ers and the flare players. What we need now is 3 spine/ core players, a goalkeeper, a dominating CM and a consistent scorer. I would be over the moon if we could sign Begovic, Barkley and Higuain, but I doubt it would happen. FSG needs to support Rodgers all the way, and Rodgers himself said that we need to sign world class names to replace the likes of Gerrard and Suarez and not potential. The salary coming off of Gerrard and Suarez is substantial, so I think it can happen. If it doesn't happen, I would be very disappointed with FSG.


But they have supported him, they provided him with the funds to bring in players, why did he not spend wisely (he needed to have got it spot on last summer), but no, he is the one that wanted to bring in 7 or 8 players, it s akin to a kid in sweetshop. FSG didn't tell him who to buy, and everyone, including BR knew the types of players that were needed, the GK, CM and a quality striker as you mention. Particularly the GK which was not addressed, the quality striker which was not addressed. He knew that full well, particularly the striker cause LS was leaving,  but failed to bring in the players. Money was wasted.  And BR saying 'quality needs to be brought in' is BR's way of  covering his backside.   Blame everyone but himself. 

There is no money because BR spent it all. He only needed to bring 3 players max and used the players from the academy, give them a chance.  If you think that just because the wages coming back from SG and LS is going to help, it's not, LFC still need to reduce the wage bill.

As for players coming in, a GK on a pre contract for the summer will probably be it. Lucas seems to have sorted things out with Inter, he should be kept, and to think BR is considering spending the money from the sale of Lucas on Delph is a no no.

Let's wait and see what the recommendations are when the full top down review of the club is completed.
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Postby eds » Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:57 am

To be fair everyone at the club (owners, Ayre and Rodgers) are partly responsible for the mess we are in.

The owner's obsession in getting young and/or cheap "moneyball" players dictated down to the recruiting team is the main reason why we have bought in so many duds in the time they have been here. This is the main reason they brought Rodgers in, because they knew they didn't have the financial clout to rebuild this club like Abramovich did at Chelsea over a decade ago and the Sheikhs did at City about 6-7 years ago. Instead they have opted for a different model, invest in talented young players and build for the future, ala Arsenal's model in the last decade (which BTW has won them f**k all in that time). Any experienced manager across Europe would balk at having a limited budget full of restrictions or pressures on age. This model is destined to fail.

Our spaghetti noodle friend Mags, although having a higher sense of delusion among the faithful has highlighted the same thing I have been saying for the last few months. We have a bunch of very talented players in our ranks; Sterling, Coutinho, Markovic, Can, Origi, Sturridge, Ilori, Moreno, etc. They are all under 25 and barring that they stay fit (we are all looking at you Sturridge) we have a side capable of competing in the not too distant future. To add to that you have a second tier of players that are OK but aren't as promising as the first tier (due to a number of things) including Lovren, Lallana, Skrtel, Henderson, Sakho and Balotelli. Beyond that you really have players that are average at best, or too young or just need to be sold or released as soon as possible. What we now need to do is strengthen our spine. This is where all our problems begin and end.

In order to compete over the next season, we need to rebuild this spine from the ground up. In world football this is probably the most expensive exercise any club can be involved with, when it comes to player transfers. Unfortunately it something that I doubt our yank owners, acknowledge, understand or appreciate when it comes to running a football club.  For them it's something to balk at, if Rodgers was to ask them for an additional 60-80m for three players over 25yo.

First we need to bring in a strong commanding goal-keeper that will marshal the troops at the back. Mignolet and Jones should be no where near our starting XI and we inevitably will need to spend b/w 10-15m to acquire a quality replacement. With the current set-up, manager and inept spud in Ayre this becomes a harder task than usual to execute. Why? Because goal-keepers mostly hit their peak well into their late 20s / early 30s and rarely ever move when they are at elite clubs in Europe. You then are then left with second tier keepers that can fill that hole but are a risk on whether they will ever improve. If you look at the keepers we have been linked with Neto, Romero, Ochoa etc, this highlights exactly what I am talking about. You would already put them into that 2nd tier category I highlighted with our existing squad.

Secondly we need a replacement for Gerrard, a box-to-box dynamo that can play game in game out and give 120% just like we saw Gerrard do throughout most of his career. Out of the 3 key positions we need, I have no confidence in this one being replaced properly under FSG, as they will dictate that this player be young first, over anything else. This is probably why we are hearing rumours of players like Barkley and Pjanic being linked with us. They vary dramatically in prices but they all fit the under the 25yo criteria, with the potential of "becoming" world class. This is exactly the risk we don't need to take. If we are going to be spending so much money on just one these players (if we do), why can't we just bring in an experienced world class player that will hit the ground running, solidify our spine and take us to the next level next season. Isn't this a key ingredient in our younger promising players being able to develop even quicker with an established world class talent in the team?       

This brings us to the last position needed, a quality striker that will help Sturridge and Origi bang them in, as of next season. Once again if we are looking at spending the amounts quoted on Berahino, Benteke or that French kid Lacazette let's forget about their age for once and bring in a quality marksman like Higuain or Cavani for a little bit more and actually spend some decent money on their salaries. Quality costs money and its something that is fundamentally broken at our club at the moment. Neither the owners want to spend more money in order to obtain these players, or Rodgers isn't appealing enough to these players or Ayre and his minions aren't competent enough to bring them in. There are a number of issues hampering our progress.

And the last question I pose, is what happens if any of our players kick on and do become world class? Like we saw Suarez become. Do we then sell them to the biggest clubs in Europe to make us a massive profit, while we miss out on their abilities in their peak years? I have no confidence that we can stem this tide as we set a precedent in recent history with the departures of Alonso, Mascherano, Torres and Suarez. We have to stop thinking about profits over titles.

That is why despite all the positives we have in our squad there is a big black gaping hole that needs to be addressed, and with everything that has gone down in our club over the last few years I still remain on the outer on whether this can be addressed properly so we can once again challenge for titles over the next few seasons.
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Postby killerp » Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:55 am

Words by Ian Ayre to describe our process of identify transfer targets

Inordinate amount
Old School Scouting
Statistical Analysis
Educated View


“He has a team of people that go out and do an inordinate amount of analysis work to establish who are the best players in that position. It’s a combination of things. Despite what people think and read, it’s not a whole bunch of guys sitting behind a computer working out who we should buy. It’s a combination of old-school scouting and watching players — and that’s Brendan, his assistants, our scouts — with statistical analysis of players across Europe and the rest of the world. By bringing those two processes together, you get a much more educated view of who you should and shouldn’t be buying. And perhaps as fundamentally, how much you should be paying and the structure to those contracts.”

http://www.thisisanfield.com/2013/04/ia ... moneyball/



Can someone please tell me how the fook an Inordinate amount of old school scouting & statistical analysis bought us Balotelli, Lambert, Borini, and the many other hacks that we are trying to offload or have already.

Surely we can say to FSG stick your moneyball system up your *****, this is not baseball. We are the one of the few clubs who consistently buy poorly and are overcharged for it. Quite simply an agents dream club.
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Postby Reg » Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:37 am

The harder you look at the face of football the more difficult it is to understand.

According to the papers we paid 16m for Balotelli.
Did we really or did his sponsors contribute 10m towards it?

Bale will go to Utd at the end of the season not because Utd want him, not because Bale wants to go to Utd, but because his sponsors have placed him there.

Some members of this forum struggle to get past the donkey jacket and rolled up newspaper phase of life, but lets not all run round with our arms above our heads screaming 'We're doomed...' just because we only see a small part of the jigsaw.
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Postby eds » Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:16 am

Reg » Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:37 am wrote:The harder you look at the face of football the more difficult it is to understand.

According to the papers we paid 16m for Balotelli.
Did we really or did his sponsors contribute 10m towards it?

Bale will go to Utd at the end of the season not because Utd want him, not because Bale wants to go to Utd, but because his sponsors have placed him there.

Some members of this forum struggle to get past the donkey jacket and rolled up newspaper phase of life, but lets not all run round with our arms above our heads screaming 'We're doomed...' just because we only see a small part of the jigsaw.


Quiet the opposite Reginald, football is a simplistic game that we as human beings complicate to the umpteenth degree.

This becomes even more so evident, when talking about the management of football clubs and who controls what.

At the end of the day success is measured with very simple metrics, how many trophies a club wins over its history. Nothing else.

That's how the performance of any football club on the planet is determined.

You can delve into the mysterious, the sponsorship occult, the political intrigues or the agenda driven nonsense that is spun up by "reputable" media sources but quiet simply something is very wrong at our club right now when it comes to player acquisitions. Over the past three years or so we have seen the club bring in a multitude of players that where either not required, we overpaid for or simply weren't good enough when they were scouted. More so than any other period I can remember in my time supporting this club.

Rather than hide behind excuses and what other clubs may or may not be doing, I choose to look at the current processes and mechanisms we have under way which are causing the issues at hand.  That way as fans we can sensibly talk about what is wrong and what isn't working. Sorry I don't buy the scaremongering that you subscribe to and peddle, which is "there are so many things above your head that you don't know therefore you really shouldn't be commenting on this". It is quiet a simplistic mentality to have (for obviously simple people) and offers nothing in the form of debate really.  :suspect:
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Postby Reg » Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:41 am

There's no scaremongering however there is a lot to be said for studying the mechanics of other sports then realising there' a lot more money involved in football and it's controlled by the same group of people. Anyway, you seem to have it all under control so carry on.
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Postby eds » Wed Jan 14, 2015 5:58 am

Reg » Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:41 am wrote:There's no scaremongering however there is a lot to be said for studying the mechanics of other sports then realising there' a lot more money involved in football and it's controlled by the same group of people. Anyway, you seem to have it all under control so carry on.


As compared to shifting the blame to some of our player's sponsors  :laugh:  :laugh: on why we haven't got things completely right with player transfers

Yeah rightio, good-luck with that......
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Postby Reg » Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:13 am

Errr hello?   How many years do you have left at school?
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Postby C-R » Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:30 am

Reg » Wed Jan 14, 2015 9:13 am wrote:Errr hello?   How many years do you have left at school?


:laugh:   :laugh:
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Postby maguskwt » Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:31 pm

eds » Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:57 am wrote:To be fair everyone at the club (owners, Ayre and Rodgers) are partly responsible for the mess we are in.

The owner's obsession in getting young and/or cheap "moneyball" players dictated down to the recruiting team is the main reason why we have bought in so many duds in the time they have been here. This is the main reason they brought Rodgers in, because they knew they didn't have the financial clout to rebuild this club like Abramovich did at Chelsea over a decade ago and the Sheikhs did at City about 6-7 years ago. Instead they have opted for a different model, invest in talented young players and build for the future, ala Arsenal's model in the last decade (which BTW has won them f**k all in that time). Any experienced manager across Europe would balk at having a limited budget full of restrictions or pressures on age. This model is destined to fail.

Our spaghetti noodle friend Mags, although having a higher sense of delusion among the faithful has highlighted the same thing I have been saying for the last few months. We have a bunch of very talented players in our ranks; Sterling, Coutinho, Markovic, Can, Origi, Sturridge, Ilori, Moreno, etc. They are all under 25 and barring that they stay fit (we are all looking at you Sturridge) we have a side capable of competing in the not too distant future. To add to that you have a second tier of players that are OK but aren't as promising as the first tier (due to a number of things) including Lovren, Lallana, Skrtel, Henderson, Sakho and Balotelli. Beyond that you really have players that are average at best, or too young or just need to be sold or released as soon as possible. What we now need to do is strengthen our spine. This is where all our problems begin and end.

In order to compete over the next season, we need to rebuild this spine from the ground up. In world football this is probably the most expensive exercise any club can be involved with, when it comes to player transfers. Unfortunately it something that I doubt our yank owners, acknowledge, understand or appreciate when it comes to running a football club.  For them it's something to balk at, if Rodgers was to ask them for an additional 60-80m for three players over 25yo.

First we need to bring in a strong commanding goal-keeper that will marshal the troops at the back. Mignolet and Jones should be no where near our starting XI and we inevitably will need to spend b/w 10-15m to acquire a quality replacement. With the current set-up, manager and inept spud in Ayre this becomes a harder task than usual to execute. Why? Because goal-keepers mostly hit their peak well into their late 20s / early 30s and rarely ever move when they are at elite clubs in Europe. You then are then left with second tier keepers that can fill that hole but are a risk on whether they will ever improve. If you look at the keepers we have been linked with Neto, Romero, Ochoa etc, this highlights exactly what I am talking about. You would already put them into that 2nd tier category I highlighted with our existing squad.

Secondly we need a replacement for Gerrard, a box-to-box dynamo that can play game in game out and give 120% just like we saw Gerrard do throughout most of his career. Out of the 3 key positions we need, I have no confidence in this one being replaced properly under FSG, as they will dictate that this player be young first, over anything else. This is probably why we are hearing rumours of players like Barkley and Pjanic being linked with us. They vary dramatically in prices but they all fit the under the 25yo criteria, with the potential of "becoming" world class. This is exactly the risk we don't need to take. If we are going to be spending so much money on just one these players (if we do), why can't we just bring in an experienced world class player that will hit the ground running, solidify our spine and take us to the next level next season. Isn't this a key ingredient in our younger promising players being able to develop even quicker with an established world class talent in the team?       

This brings us to the last position needed, a quality striker that will help Sturridge and Origi bang them in, as of next season. Once again if we are looking at spending the amounts quoted on Berahino, Benteke or that French kid Lacazette let's forget about their age for once and bring in a quality marksman like Higuain or Cavani for a little bit more and actually spend some decent money on their salaries. Quality costs money and its something that is fundamentally broken at our club at the moment. Neither the owners want to spend more money in order to obtain these players, or Rodgers isn't appealing enough to these players or Ayre and his minions aren't competent enough to bring them in. There are a number of issues hampering our progress.

And the last question I pose, is what happens if any of our players kick on and do become world class? Like we saw Suarez become. Do we then sell them to the biggest clubs in Europe to make us a massive profit, while we miss out on their abilities in their peak years? I have no confidence that we can stem this tide as we set a precedent in recent history with the departures of Alonso, Mascherano, Torres and Suarez. We have to stop thinking about profits over titles.

That is why despite all the positives we have in our squad there is a big black gaping hole that needs to be addressed, and with everything that has gone down in our club over the last few years I still remain on the outer on whether this can be addressed properly so we can once again challenge for titles over the next few seasons.

What?? You just copied exactly  what I said and had to write an essay for it? Tsk tsk... I pity you...  :;):
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Postby Shanks Forever » Wed Jan 14, 2015 7:36 pm

Some lengthy posts are really amusing here. You all try and "over analyse" every aspect of transfer tactics, football tactics, etc etc.

Football is really simple....
You buy quality, you are successful.
You.buy garbage, you suck.

When Mourhino took over Chelsea 1st time, he bought in a lot of top players, Drogba, Ballack, Essien etc, and guess Wat! They won the league twice in a row.

same goes for Man City.

Until we start signing.big names, then forget it. We won't achieve didn't squat. Either get rid of these silly yank owners, or get a new manager.
Brendan may have transfer targets, but no top players want to come here, and that's a concern.

Why do top players like, Sanchez, Ozil, Podolski, etc, prefer Arsenal over us?
Fabregas,  Costa, etc prefer Chelsea?
Falcao,  De maria,  etc prefer the scum over us?

No one wants to.come here, only fringe/ rejects.

Until that changes, forget it.

Stop over analyse everything, it's a lot simpler, than it seems.
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Postby parchpea » Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:17 pm

We wont know if the jobs too big until he's actually got a big job budget and freedom to spend it as he wishes.

Liverpool isn't the biggest job in football and we have a manager in line with our place in the food chain.

In the last 10 years we have averaged a 5th place finish so last season was exceptional and top 4 is a real strain
for us as opponents get ever stronger.

Rodgers wouldn't be at Liverpool if we had Arab money and that is the harsh reality but he's a progressive manager
looking to reach a higher level like many of our players, we are a stepping stone club and have been for a while.
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Postby Shanks Forever » Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:08 am

parchpea » Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:17 pm wrote:We wont know if the jobs too big until he's actually got a big job budget and freedom to spend it as he wishes.

Liverpool isn't the biggest job in football and we have a manager in line with our place in the food chain.

In the last 10 years we have averaged a 5th place finish so last season was exceptional and top 4 is a real strain
for us as opponents get ever stronger.

Rodgers wouldn't be at Liverpool if we had Arab money and that is the harsh reality but he's a progressive manager
looking to reach a higher level like many of our players, we are a stepping stone club and have been for a while.


Lol. That is the dumbest post I have ever read, anywhere on an Lfc forum.

Big job budget? He's spent 200million plus????? Tot his signings up....
Llalana 25m, Markovic 20m, Balotelli 16m, not to.mention, Coutinho, Sturridge, Sakho, Lovren, Mignolet, Toure, Borini, Joe Allen, Lambert, etc etc. 

We are a stepping stone club?.

Listen, I suggest you go to the Lfc museum at Anfield mate. There you will see five European cups standing there. You won't find that at Chelsea, Arsenal or Man City's museum.

Some of the posters in here need shooting and require an IQ. test.,  seriously. :(

Shanks is turning in.his grave.
Last edited by Shanks Forever on Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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