RAFA BENITEZ LEAVES LIVERPOOL - Official Thread, includes merged threads

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby lakes10 » Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:09 pm

J*o*n*D*o*e wrote:
roberto green wrote:
sgs wrote:We have too many dumbheads on the internet masquerading as intelligent football followers.

Liverpool created more high quality chances on the field with Ngog in 20mins than the 70mins when Torres was on the field, cutting an increasingly frustrated figure and unable to work the channels effectively...

A Manager is paid to make decisions like this, not look good for the cameras under a union jack umbrella!

As for SG and Torres' looks, thats what u expect from a footballer, a FOOTBALLER!

I think it was inevitable we were going to create more chances towards the end of the game with what was at stake.It's just a pity we never had our star striker on the pitch to finish one of them which Ngog is clearly no good at doing.Yeah Torres had been bad in the game but as been proven before he can have games like that (like Villa) were he pops up with a goal while not doing anything all game.

It wasn't the introduction of Ngog that made the chances BUT it was the introduction of Ngog that insured we got a draw and not a win.


:no

dont forget the $*i*e defending which gifted them a goal.

what defending!!!!
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Postby sgs » Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:44 pm

roberto green wrote:
sgs wrote:We have too many dumbheads on the internet masquerading as intelligent football followers.

Liverpool created more high quality chances on the field with Ngog in 20mins than the 70mins when Torres was on the field, cutting an increasingly frustrated figure and unable to work the channels effectively...

A Manager is paid to make decisions like this, not look good for the cameras under a union jack umbrella!

As for SG and Torres' looks, thats what u expect from a footballer, a FOOTBALLER!

I think it was inevitable we were going to create more chances towards the end of the game with what was at stake.It's just a pity we never had our star striker on the pitch to finish one of them which Ngog is clearly no good at doing.Yeah Torres had been bad in the game but as been proven before he can have games like that (like Villa) were he pops up with a goal while not doing anything all game.

It wasn't the introduction of Ngog that made the chances BUT it was the introduction of Ngog that insured we got a draw and not a win.


:no

It was not INEVITABLE, nothing is given in football. The problem with dundderheads who analyse after the fact is they think from front to back...

What is the evidence that makes it inevitable we will create chances? What are the matches we have played this season that validate this assumption? Who are the players whose recent performances provide evidence to support this assumption?

The body of evidence lies in the game itself. And the evidence from the game is clear. We created more chances from Ngog being on the field and it is no coincidence. Its a direct result of the player's greater energy levels and his work in the channels...
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Postby Bad Bob » Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:58 pm

sgs wrote:
roberto green wrote:
sgs wrote:We have too many dumbheads on the internet masquerading as intelligent football followers.

Liverpool created more high quality chances on the field with Ngog in 20mins than the 70mins when Torres was on the field, cutting an increasingly frustrated figure and unable to work the channels effectively...

A Manager is paid to make decisions like this, not look good for the cameras under a union jack umbrella!

As for SG and Torres' looks, thats what u expect from a footballer, a FOOTBALLER!

I think it was inevitable we were going to create more chances towards the end of the game with what was at stake.It's just a pity we never had our star striker on the pitch to finish one of them which Ngog is clearly no good at doing.Yeah Torres had been bad in the game but as been proven before he can have games like that (like Villa) were he pops up with a goal while not doing anything all game.

It wasn't the introduction of Ngog that made the chances BUT it was the introduction of Ngog that insured we got a draw and not a win.


:no

It was not INEVITABLE, nothing is given in football. The problem with dundderheads who analyse after the fact is they think from front to back...

What is the evidence that makes it inevitable we will create chances? What are the matches we have played this season that validate this assumption? Who are the players whose recent performances provide evidence to support this assumption?

The body of evidence lies in the game itself. And the evidence from the game is clear. We created more chances from Ngog being on the field and it is no coincidence. Its a direct result of the player's greater energy levels and his work in the channels...

Here's the more pertinent body of evidence as far as I'm concerned.  Torres--arguably the best striker in the world--has scored 8 goals in the last 9 games (since returning from injury) and we are far more likely to score goals when he's on the pitch than not.  Dress it up anyway you like but us "dunderheads" will continue to feel that that it was an absolutely idiotic substitution to make given the stakes.  I personally can't fathom seeing it from any other perspective but I suppose it takes all kinds...
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Postby tubby » Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:12 pm

At the end of the day Bob it's far too easy to sit from your chair and be the manager. Everyone knows what do to doright? The truth is we know :censored: all, we only know what we see for 90 mins a week on TV and read in the rags and thats it. Rafa is the manager so im sure he didn't take him off for no reason.
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Postby sgs » Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:13 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
sgs wrote:
roberto green wrote:
sgs wrote:We have too many dumbheads on the internet masquerading as intelligent football followers.

Liverpool created more high quality chances on the field with Ngog in 20mins than the 70mins when Torres was on the field, cutting an increasingly frustrated figure and unable to work the channels effectively...

A Manager is paid to make decisions like this, not look good for the cameras under a union jack umbrella!

As for SG and Torres' looks, thats what u expect from a footballer, a FOOTBALLER!

I think it was inevitable we were going to create more chances towards the end of the game with what was at stake.It's just a pity we never had our star striker on the pitch to finish one of them which Ngog is clearly no good at doing.Yeah Torres had been bad in the game but as been proven before he can have games like that (like Villa) were he pops up with a goal while not doing anything all game.

It wasn't the introduction of Ngog that made the chances BUT it was the introduction of Ngog that insured we got a draw and not a win.


:no

It was not INEVITABLE, nothing is given in football. The problem with dundderheads who analyse after the fact is they think from front to back...

What is the evidence that makes it inevitable we will create chances? What are the matches we have played this season that validate this assumption? Who are the players whose recent performances provide evidence to support this assumption?

The body of evidence lies in the game itself. And the evidence from the game is clear. We created more chances from Ngog being on the field and it is no coincidence. Its a direct result of the player's greater energy levels and his work in the channels...

Here's the more pertinent body of evidence as far as I'm concerned.  Torres--arguably the best striker in the world--has scored 8 goals in the last 9 games (since returning from injury) and we are far more likely to score goals when he's on the pitch than not.  Dress it up anyway you like but us "dunderheads" will continue to feel that that it was an absolutely idiotic substitution to make given the stakes.  I personally can't fathom seeing it from any other perspective but I suppose it takes all kinds...

the evidence of the last 9 games also shows that when Torres is not on top of his game, he is unable to get himself in scoring positions or score goals..

Meanwhile, the more current evidence is we created more chances with Ngog on the field in 25mins than with a less than 100% Torres in 65mins.

But u are of course entitled to wallow in 'dunderhead kingdom'...
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Postby Reg » Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:17 pm

bavlondon wrote:At the end of the day Bob it's far too easy to sit from your chair and be the manager. Everyone knows what do to doright? The truth is we know :censored: all, we only know what we see for 90 mins a week on TV and read in the rags and thats it. Rafa is the manager so im sure he didn't take him off for no reason.

Only STU ever knew what to do and god knows what he´s saying of that substitution!  :laugh:
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Postby parchpea » Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:18 pm

If Ngog made such a big impact perhaps he should have paired him with Torres and gone about trying to win it with them both on the park for the last half hour.

Im convinced Torres was fine yesterday but another question is the tactic of playing him up front on his own when clearly he is not robust enough to cope with that week in week out in the Premiership. For my money if he had a strike partner to take the weight off we would get far more games out of him and keep him fresh.If Nando was jaded the argument then is that Benitez is actually casuing the problem by playing him up there on his own getting kicked all over the park every week.
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Postby Reg » Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:25 pm

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Postby Sir Roger » Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:31 pm

bavlondon wrote:At the end of the day Bob it's far too easy to sit from your chair and be the manager. Everyone knows what do to doright? The truth is we know :censored: all, we only know what we see for 90 mins a week on TV and read in the rags and thats it. Rafa is the manager so im sure he didn't take him off for no reason.

Yes but by your logic hes playing Lucas and Kuyt for a reason as well.
What would that be?
???
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Postby tubby » Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:39 pm

Sir Roger wrote:
bavlondon wrote:At the end of the day Bob it's far too easy to sit from your chair and be the manager. Everyone knows what do to doright? The truth is we know :censored: all, we only know what we see for 90 mins a week on TV and read in the rags and thats it. Rafa is the manager so im sure he didn't take him off for no reason.

Yes but by your logic hes playing Lucas and Kuyt for a reason as well.
What would that be?
???

I don't know mate I can only speculate they work hard in training.

Riera was a classic example of how far from the truth everyone on here had it. Yes on his day he gives us something but everyone though he was frozen out of the team because Rafa was being a :censored:. But in reality he slapped Pacheco on more than 1 occasion.
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Postby Sir Roger » Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:44 pm

bavlondon wrote:
Sir Roger wrote:
bavlondon wrote:At the end of the day Bob it's far too easy to sit from your chair and be the manager. Everyone knows what do to doright? The truth is we know :censored: all, we only know what we see for 90 mins a week on TV and read in the rags and thats it. Rafa is the manager so im sure he didn't take him off for no reason.

Yes but by your logic hes playing Lucas and Kuyt for a reason as well.
What would that be?
???

I don't know mate I can only speculate they work hard in training.

Riera was a classic example of how far from the truth everyone on here had it. Yes on his day he gives us something but everyone though he was frozen out of the team because Rafa was being a :censored:. But in reality he slapped Pacheco on more than 1 occasion.

If I was in that team I would be slapping a few of them to be honest
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Postby tubby » Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:20 pm

Yeah you can't say a few of them don't deserve it but that's just the reality of the situation. There is obviously some unrest amongst the players and you can probably put some of that down to the sale of Alonso as well as the lack of incoming quality players. That last part needs to be addressed this summer otherwise next season will only be a repeat of this if not worse.
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Postby sgs » Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:22 pm

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/latest-news/tomkins-on-torres-decision

When people email, text and Tweet me that Rafa was definitely wrong to take off Torres at Birmingham, I ask "how do you know?"

There's a chance that this wonderful striker, who was clearly tired and not really in the game, could have pulled a rabbit out of the hat, as he did at Villa.

There's also a chance that he might not - as was the case at Wigan, when he stayed on and missed good chances.

And there's a chance that, given he was clearly leggy after a tough shift in Portugal, and given his problems this season (not to mention how injuries occur more readily to tired, over-stretched players), he might have pulled a muscle.

Then where would we be?

Now, those who think Rafa was 100 per cent wrong fail to see such alternatives.

There's also an alternative where Torres stays on, improves, plays a blinder, but the team lose; what would it have been blamed on then? As at Wigan, Gerrard played in central midfield, so it couldn't have been that.

But there would no-doubt be some 'simple' explanation proffered.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying taking off Torres was the right - or should I say, 'obvious' - thing to do. However, unless you can rewind time and play the game with every alternative scenario, we'll never know.

At least at Wigan, when he missed four really good openings, Torres was getting the chances. You could see him maybe popping one in.

At St Andrews it was surely no coincidence that the fresh legs of Ngog helped the Reds carve out their best openings. To say "Torres would have scored if he'd still been on" is to ignore that the chances weren't coming when he was.

Yes, Ngog missed them, but the time to worry about strikers is when they're not getting the chances. After all, you need to be creating them, either as a team or as individuals, to even hope of scoring.

Let's be clear: Ngog, still only 20, is a very promising young player; one who showed maturity and intelligence in almost everything he did against Birmingham. Vitally, he never hid, despite the boos from the home fans.


He missed a header as soon as he came on, but it was a very good effort that was inches past the post. He then curled a shot wide, almost identical to the one Torres missed in the first half against Sunderland last week. And he missed a one-on-one, as Torres did in Portugal, and as all strikers do.

But it was Ngog's pace, and freshness, that allowed him to 'make' these chances happen. He also created openings for others, and despite not scoring for a while, his goals-per-minute ratio remains excellent for a youngster learning the game (indeed, it's excellent in general).

Anyone who regularly watches the Reserves can see he's head and shoulders above that level, and almost always scores, last season and this. Of course, if he had yet to play in the first-team, everyone would look at his massive superiority at that level and say "he has to be in the first team".

Liverpool played their best football after the change, and suddenly things started to happen. As I said, Torres could have repeated what he did at Villa Park; but also, what happened at Wigan, or what happened when he limped out of games.

But what winds me up is the certainty of those who know something is wrong. Everything with them is definite, set, pre-determined.

Maybe life is easier this way; but keeping an open mind is very different from sitting on the fence.

These are presumably the people who said Nani would never make it at Man United, or that after two years on the periphery, Malouda would never come good at Chelsea.

Indeed, I can easily name 20 of the Premier League's best players who were either written off in their first year or two as a player, or who, at the age of 20, weren't even good enough for the top flight, let alone a top club. But maybe it takes imagination to sense that players will develop?

(Another example: in his early 20s, Sami Hyypia was rejected by the mighty Oldham Athletic.)

Ignorance can be wilful, or it can be natural; after all, we can't know everything, or even be remotely expected to.

Personally speaking, I try to arm myself with as many facts as possible, to avoid being ignorant of the issues at hand. I played the game to a decent level, and come from a footballing background. And I spent a good few years as a regular at Anfield.

I watch games, read books, listen to interviews, undertake research and analysis and speak to hundreds of fans each week. Mostly it makes me realise just how much there is that I will never know.

And even if I did have a flawless knowledge of the game, there will always be aspects of a manager's job that no-one but he himself, and his closest staff members, will be aware of: injuries, budgetary issues, attitudes in training, stamina levels, concerns in the players' personal lives or with their general confidence, and myriad other details that affect, in some way or other, each and every performance.

All clubs monitor players scientifically these days. But as fans, we cannot. Perhaps we think we know more, because we are told more: but often it's a cluttered, contradictory message from outsiders, who may well also be out of touch.

In this sense, I am aware of my ignorance. I am also aware that my own ideas about football have never been tested in the real arena, where things can go wrong through no fault of your own.



Therefore, I write with respect when analysing the methods of top managers, not with the delusions that I know better.

But the problem with truly ignorant people is that, paradoxically, they think they know best.

Ben Goldacre, scientist, author and myth-debunker, gives a wonderful explanation of the Dunning-Kruger Effect, which deals with this very phenomenon.

"...one of my favourite psychology papers: 'How Difficulties in Recognising One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments' by Justin Kruger and David Dunning. They noted that people who are incompetent suffer a dual burden: not only are they incompetent, but they may also be too incompetent to assay their own incompetence, because the skills which underlie an ability to make a correct judgement are the same as the skills required to recognise a correct judgement."

In other words, ignorant and incompetent people are not only unable to recognise true skill in others, they also have an inflated idea of their own ability - because they have no way of knowing that they don't know better!

These are the people that say "I could do that job. How hard can it be?" Because, of course, if you don't know how hard something really is, you will of course think it's not that difficult.

Now, much of the fun of being a football fan is making judgements on every last issue. This is undeniably a key part of what makes supporters tick.

But we also need humility, over the fact that we are viewing through a fog. At best, we might only have 50 per cent of the facts: we may see what's going on out on the pitch (although we don't have Prozone and other technical wizardry to help analyse movements), but not the other issues mentioned earlier.

But even then, the top managers are at the summit because they, and their staff, can analyse things better than we can. They view football on a higher level. It doesn't mean they're always right; but equally, it often means that a lot of criticism is just noise in the dark.

Just as I can watch a game of chess with a knowledge of all the moves the pieces can make - therefore I 'understand chess' - I do not know any of the strategies.

I could watch chess for two hours a couple of times a week for the rest of my life, and never get close to appreciating the subtleties; after all, the grand masters have been playing six, seven, eight hours a day since they were knee-high to grasshoppers. They've studied under experts. They think in a different way to us mere mortals.

If someone says to me "I think the manager got that wrong", that seems like a fair expression of opinion, even if it's an opinion undermined by a lack of all the facts.

But if someone says "he was definitely wrong" or "he's lost the plot" (usually said by people who've never once grasped a plot), that, to me, is the ultimate expression of ignorance.


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Postby Bad Bob » Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:35 pm

Okay, I see it now.  My bad.  Another tactical masterstroke from Rafa taking off the world's best striker and putting on a kid who managed to elevate our game to a new level of....well, of nothing really, because he still failed to put away any of the glorious opportunities that his sheer brilliance alone managed to carve out in the final 25 minutes. :glare:
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Postby tubby » Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:36 pm

Yeah what he said :cool:
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