Liverpool FC Forum

by **maguskwt** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:54 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
bigmick wrote:I personally don't think there is any doubt that Rafa is "committed to the cause".

Jump on that, Heimdall

he wouldn't dare to challenge his "big boss" would he?

...

Mick is kinda like the Megatron figure for the anti's.... :laugh:

just taking the :censored:

guys...

by **Owzat** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:59 pm

LFC2007 wrote:If he wasn't 'committed to the cause' would he not be at Madrid, Barcelona or Inter Milan right now?

Working on the assumption the MEDIA links to Real Madrid weren't made up, that there were ACTUAL OFFERS and of course most of the media are going to link a SPANISH manager with a SPANISH giant.

LFC2007 wrote:If he wasn't 'committed to the cause', perhaps he'd have left after the owners made their approach for Jurgen Klinsmann public?

Walk out of a well paid job into unemployment on the basis that there was no manager on his way in?!?!?!? I don't see stands of empty seats at Anfield because of a hate for the owners, ST holders knowing that if they rip up their STs that they might never get them back. Perhaps he considered leaving but figured he'd be stooopid to do so

LFC2007 wrote:The simple fact is that having the ownership sell your second best player would normally be enough to force most self-respecting managers to resign. It would fundamentally undermine his position as manager. He wants to succeed and by definition he therefore wants the club to succeed, but he cannot pursue his goals - our goals - if he hasn't the most basic assurance from the owners that he has the final say on transfers. Incidentally, I don't for a moment believe he would've signed a contract extension without that express assurance (it's implicit anyway), and so if ever the owners breached that condition - and certainly to the extent this example would provide - he'd be well within his rights to terminate his contract (entitling him to receive, no doubt, a minimum level of compensation).

poppycock, fergie didn't walk out over the sale of the clubs' BEST player and I bet he's got more respect for himself than any three or thirty others put together. Wenger is ALWAYS having to sell good players if not their best, a certain french cheat from last night for example. He's still there because he's a good enough manager to cope, perhaps the truth is RAFA ISN'T and he knows it. Perhaps he's simply looking for a way to walk out without losing face, an issue he can stamp his feet and walk out about.

I've seen good players come and go, be sold or leave because they wanted to. The club should move on, the manager has to deal with it. It's quite amusing that Rafa should want assurances that such and such won't happen when he's not delivering on the pitch. If the owners did sell Torres it might be better getting a good price for him now than him getting fed up with trying to carry the team between him and Gerrard and wanting to leave.

If Torres wanted to leave because he wasn't winning trophies then people would question his commitment, when the going gets tough.................... and all that. Doesn't say much for the rest of his squad that Rafa needs that one signing to stay, he knows he is being exposed and that without Torres his five wasted years at Anfield will be exposed for having produced not a lot

by **LFC2007** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:37 pm

Owzat wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:If he wasn't 'committed to the cause' would he not be at Madrid, Barcelona or Inter Milan right now?

Working on the assumption the MEDIA links to Real Madrid weren't made up, that there were ACTUAL OFFERS and of course most of the media are going to link a SPANISH manager with a SPANISH giant.

Are you seriously questioning whether he had a genuine offer from Real Madrid? It's common knowledge. He had more fruitful offers elsewhere, but he stayed, which tends to suggest that he's 'committed to the cause'.

Walk out of a well paid job into unemployment on the basis that there was no manager on his way in?!?!?!? I don't see stands of empty seats at Anfield because of a hate for the owners, ST holders knowing that if they rip up their STs that they might never get them back. Perhaps he considered leaving but figured he'd be stooopid to do so

I honestly don't know what you're on about here, tbph. The guy was openly humiliated by the owners during the Kilnsmann saga. Few top manager would have put up with that.

poppycock, fergie didn't walk out over the sale of the clubs' BEST player and I bet he's got more respect for himself than any three or thirty others put together. Wenger is ALWAYS having to sell good players if not their best, a certain french cheat from last night for example. He's still there because he's a good enough manager to cope, perhaps the truth is RAFA ISN'T and he knows it. Perhaps he's simply looking for a way to walk out without losing face, an issue he can stamp his feet and walk out about.

I've seen good players come and go, be sold or leave because they wanted to. The club should move on, the manager has to deal with it. It's quite amusing that Rafa should want assurances that such and such won't happen when he's not delivering on the pitch. If the owners did sell Torres it might be better getting a good price for him now than him getting fed up with trying to carry the team between him and Gerrard and wanting to leave.

If Torres wanted to leave because he wasn't winning trophies then people would question his commitment, when the going gets tough.................... and all that. Doesn't say much for the rest of his squad that Rafa needs that one signing to stay, he knows he is being exposed and that without Torres his five wasted years at Anfield will be exposed for having produced not a lot

Fergie couldn't do much about the sale of his best player; the guy wanted to join Real Madrid. Torres, as far as we know, doesn't want to leave and therefore the comparison doesn't hold. A fair comparison would be, say, if the Glaziers tried to flog Rooney behind his back. I don't think Fergie would have that.

Wenger is probably a unique example of a manager prepared to sanction the sale of a number of his better players, but that ties in perfectly with his footballing philosophy anyway. He's more inclined to sell players at their peak value (and Henry wasn't one of them, incidentally), than most other managers because he takes a long-term view of the club. I highly doubt he was "forced against his will" to sell Adebayor or Toure. Adebayor had a very poor season last term, and £25m was an excellent offer, but he had already signed Arshavin and had Eduardo still to return. With Van Persie, Bendtner, Vela and a few others waiting in the wings, he was prepared to absorb what footballing loss there may have been. That they have been better without him tends to support the idea that Wenger wasn't forced into sanctioning his departure. It's also worth saying that Toure hadn't been at his best either, while he had already procured Vermaelen, a viable replacement. A younger, cheaper alternative, who can be seen to represent better value to the future of the club.

A pertinent example would be if Arsenal's owners tried to flog Fabregas behind Wenger's back. If you'd back any Premier League manager to stay under such circumstances, it'd probably be him, but I still reckon there'd be a good chance he'd quit, as Fabregas is their best player and they presently have no viable replacement.

Your subsequent suggestion that Rafa might secretly desire the sale of Torres to provide himself with a convenient excuse to leave, I think is absolutely ludicrous.

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:35 pm

If Rafa left today would you consider his term here as a success or a failure?

If Rafa left after another season of winning nothing I don't think there would be much doubt. Houllier stayed too long, if he had left after his heart problems we would be talking about him as a great manager rather than remembering him as a manager who bought a lot of poor players.

by **tubby** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:40 pm

He won a European Cup, an FA Cup, made it to a few more finals and we are back amongst the big time and one of the most feared teams in Europe. Id say it wasn't a success as if it was he wouldn't have left but I wouldn't call it a failure either. Somewhere in the middle I guess.

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:02 pm

bavlondon wrote:He won a European Cup, an FA Cup, made it to a few more finals and we are back amongst the big time and one of the most feared teams in Europe. Id say it wasn't a success as if it was he wouldn't have left but I wouldn't call it a failure either. Somewhere in the middle I guess.

I agree mate, but his early success with cups and finals was with mainly Houllier players, he has won nothing with the team he has built.

12 Houllier players + 2 Rafa players in the CL FINAL
11 Houllier players + 3 Rafa players in the League cup
9 Houllier players + 5 Rafa players in the FA cup final

Also remember NONE of the Rafa players who played in our CL success are still at the club, and only one from our FA CUP win.

by **tubby** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:11 pm

That is true but those same Houllier players were the majority of the squad which finished 30 points behind Chelsea right? Either way it was probably our worst ever winning team considering all our other European triumphs came with teams at the height of their powers. I admit Rafa has made mistakes but I just want to see him have 1 summer of being able to buy whoever he wants mate. I am so sure if we bring in some more quality on par with Torres, Gerrard and Reina that we will win the league.

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:21 pm

bavlondon wrote:That is true but those same Houllier players were the majority of the squad which finished 30 points behind Chelsea right? Either way it was probably our worst ever winning team considering all our other European triumphs came with teams at the height of their powers. I admit Rafa has made mistakes but I just want to see him have 1 summer of being able to buy whoever he wants mate. I am so sure if we bring in some more quality on par with Torres, Gerrard and Reina that we will win the league.

You will never see that mate. Even clubs like Chelsea can't buy who they want, with our owners we can't even buy players we DON'T WANT

Ten of those same players had also finished second in the league 3 points infront of the MANCS Bav so they wern't bad players.

by **killerp** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:52 pm

s@int wrote:
killerp wrote:[img=http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/e363cd8ce0.jpg]

Chelsea will be the next stop for Hiddink unless he wants to do another football revolution for another lucky country (or club maybe . ) although Russia's luck ran out.

I would imagine that Chelsea are delighted with the manager they already have at the moment mate.

Not if he doesn't win the Champions League this season! but you are right Ancelloti is not a bad manager.

by **Fauxy** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:03 pm

Hiddink is 63 ... he isnt going to come back to the premier league. The reason he left chelsea was because he was getting too old.

by **loopyliverpool** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:46 pm

Hiddink was a fill in - he was always going to go back to Russia. There was a thread on him earlier, where's that gone?

by **Zidane** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:53 pm

Owzat wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:If he wasn't 'committed to the cause' would he not be at Madrid, Barcelona or Inter Milan right now?

Working on the assumption the MEDIA links to Real Madrid weren't made up, that there were ACTUAL OFFERS and of course most of the media are going to link a SPANISH manager with a SPANISH giant.

LFC2007 wrote:If he wasn't 'committed to the cause', perhaps he'd have left after the owners made their approach for Jurgen Klinsmann public?

Walk out of a well paid job into unemployment on the basis that there was no manager on his way in?!?!?!? I don't see stands of empty seats at Anfield because of a hate for the owners, ST holders knowing that if they rip up their STs that they might never get them back. Perhaps he considered leaving but figured he'd be stooopid to do so

LFC2007 wrote:The simple fact is that having the ownership sell your second best player would normally be enough to force most self-respecting managers to resign. It would fundamentally undermine his position as manager. He wants to succeed and by definition he therefore wants the club to succeed, but he cannot pursue his goals - our goals - if he hasn't the most basic assurance from the owners that he has the final say on transfers. Incidentally, I don't for a moment believe he would've signed a contract extension without that express assurance (it's implicit anyway), and so if ever the owners breached that condition - and certainly to the extent this example would provide - he'd be well within his rights to terminate his contract (entitling him to receive, no doubt, a minimum level of compensation).

poppycock, fergie didn't walk out over the sale of the clubs' BEST player and I bet he's got more respect for himself than any three or thirty others put together. Wenger is ALWAYS having to sell good players if not their best, a certain french cheat from last night for example. He's still there because he's a good enough manager to cope, perhaps the truth is RAFA ISN'T and he knows it. Perhaps he's simply looking for a way to walk out without losing face, an issue he can stamp his feet and walk out about.

I've seen good players come and go, be sold or leave because they wanted to. The club should move on, the manager has to deal with it. It's quite amusing that Rafa should want assurances that such and such won't happen when he's not delivering on the pitch. If the owners did sell Torres it might be better getting a good price for him now than him getting fed up with trying to carry the team between him and Gerrard and wanting to leave.

If Torres wanted to leave because he wasn't winning trophies then people would question his commitment, when the going gets tough.................... and all that. Doesn't say much for the rest of his squad that Rafa needs that one signing to stay, he knows he is being exposed and that without Torres his five wasted years at Anfield will be exposed for having produced not a lot

What LFC 2007 said, this is the kind of anti Rafa post I hate, sorry to say but it is full of nonsense. I try to be fair with some of the anti's cause I can see where they are coming from but come on.

by **NANNY RED** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:10 am

Thought id stick this in here in case anyone wants to buy it , comes out on the 30th

http://www.fifteenminutesthatshooktheworld.com/

Ill have it as a chrimbo prezzie if anyone wants to buy it for me

by **Dazzer** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:03 am

big al wrote:Saint your right. Points mean nothing unless a trophy or title go with them. Also back then you had to win 3 games to get 6 points it only takes two wins today. I understand your point Bavlondon but it only translates into 2 trophies. No competition Bob Paisley puts him to shame.

Yep Rafa would have had to win at least one thing every season to ever get mentioned in the same breath tbh.

by **Benny The Noon** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:21 pm

Rafa Benitez said he would quit Liverpool if Fernando Torres is sold. The Spanish striker could have been sold last summer to Manchester City if Benitez had accepted their offer – and there will undoubtedly be more enquiries coming in for Torres until the day he does actually leave.

But as I have explained in The Daily Mirror this morning, what is remarkable about the offer made to Liverpool last summer is the scale of the City bid: £70million for Torres plus and additional £30million for Javier Mascherano. Benitez rejected both offers from Mark Hughes – but I wonder if those Liverpool fans clamouring for some headline grabbing transfer activity and the thrill of purchasing the likes of Ribery, Villa and Silva would have preferred Benitez to say yes?

In rejecting those bids in the summer, Benitez stuck with proven Premier League performers who are guaranteed to succeed, ahead of the instant impact of glamorous summer transfer activity. And if you ask me, Rafa has done the right thing .

If anyone should question Benitez`s commitment after making that comment about leaving Liverpool – then they should know this. Rafa Benitez turned down the opportunity to take over at Real Madrid in the summer for the FOURTH time since he has been at Anfield.

Benitez rejected a package worth €6million per year over a four-year deal and a transfer budget that a manager`s dreams are made of.

The reason he rejected Real Madrid? Rafa believes that he is in the middle of a major project at Anfield, one that so far hasn`t reaped the rewards he expected, but is clearly a work in progress and he has an unshakeable faith in its ultimate success. The aim is not to bring one league title to Anfield, but a succession of them and an era of Liverpool challenging for all major titles for years to come…

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