Liverpool FC Forum

by **Number 9** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:59 pm

Sabre just say he's shi'te please mate!!

by **bigmick** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:00 pm

Sabes the Masherano at West Ham thing is a bit of an urban myth TBH. It was very political while he was there, and Pardew was very much opposed to the idea of playing an out and out holding midfielder. Not only didn't he make it, but he was kind of rotting in the reserves when we picked him up. The reasons for his "failure" though were far from being totally football related, there was by all accounts much twoing and frowing behind the scenes.

In the case of Riera, he actually did feature at man City for half a season and the overriding impression I got from the two or three times I saw him was that he didn't fancy it. There was plenty of sitting on his erse looking quizically at the ref, he didn't like it when the full-backs sat in tight, and he didn't show for the ball nor protect it well enough under physical pressure.

Now it maybe that he has developed as a footballer, infact it probably is the case, but he will need to have significantly altered his mentaility if he is going to succeed over here. He will get pressured, he will get tackled, he will get physically asked the question every single weekend. Unless he has the answers and the will to search for them, he will disappear off the radar quicker than you can say Carlos Kickaball. My feeling is that we will regret signing him fairly quickly, but obviously I hope I'm wrong.

by **Sabre** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:01 pm

Mark Gonzalez saved my team out of relegation, came on loan from Liverpool and that was too much of a bias for me

. He's more a player for Betis than Liverpool. Anyhow not that I'm too excited, I'm mildly optimistic

I think he's a player that despite he's not what I'd like to see in a top club like this, he can be useful in the current squad.

Not useful as in "more options" and "possibilities", but useful to use him week in, week out and making a good contribution for the team, a bit like when we all praised Finnan's work, but in the LM position, that kind of impact. He's more an interior (Left midfielder) than a winger, but with more resources than Benayoun to reach the bottom and cross. He's taller too, near 1.90m I'd say. I think the impact in the team will be more notable than in the case of Benayoun.

In the case of Riera, he actually did feature at man City for half a season and the overriding impression I got from the two or three times I saw him was that he didn't fancy it. There was plenty of sitting on his erse looking quizically at the ref, he didn't like it when the full-backs sat in tight, and he didn't show for the ball nor protect it well enough under physical pressure.

Yes, perhaps Mascherano never was given the chance, but at the same time, I think a player can be a success in one premier team and a failure in another.

Perhaps the bit of he didn't fancy it you are spot on. Riera was a regular sub21 international player and made a hell of a season with Mallorca I remember. Very promising. Then, a coach that didn't suit his game came (Lotina) and told him he wouldn't play much. That's when he went to Manchester, as a last resource and against his will.

As for the psysical answer, that's why I don't want to make predictions, Spanish defenders are more positional, RB here are told not to tackle unless the tackle is obvious, they're told to hold until someone come to help -- see Spion's video you can see that once and again --

I don't doubt your opinion of players playing in the premiership, but did you see enough of him? I mean, more than the odd boring afternoon in which you were bored enough to watch Man City, once or twice?

If you saw him more than 5 times, then I'd be really worried.

Not that I'm very excited, I'd be more excited with Arteta, and a lot more excited with Silva, but I'm mildly excited because he'll be useful to win games by giving good service to our world class players -- hopefully

by **lakes10** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:03 pm

john craig wrote:
Sabre wrote:What I'm sure of is that he's not rubbish. He may have been garbage in 19 games in Manchester, but hey, Mascherano wasn't good enough for West Ham either.

I think that is a fair point.

My main concern though Sabre, is not that he was sh.it for City, it's that the last time you seemed this excited about one of our signings it was Mark Gonzalez...

shhhhs dont say that name to him, he might get upset again

by **bigmick** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:03 pm

Funnily enough sabre's mentioned it in his last post, the one and only aspect of Riera's imminent arrival which makes me happy is that he is not an "options" and "possibilities" player. It appears he is a left midfielder by trade, which is fine by me.

by **LFC2007** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:04 pm

bigmick wrote:This thing about Rafa not getting his first choices is a bit of a red herring in my opinion. I remember Ferguson trying to sign Robaldinho before he went to Barca and not being able to get the cash together, Wenger hardly spends anything relatively and only Chelsea can genuinely be held up as an example of a team who can just about buy who they want. All managers have to work within a prescribed budget, they always have and I would venture that given we've spent the best part of forty million quid this Summer, or budget is bigger than most.

Wenger is generally accepted as an exception to to the rule in terms of expenditure/success ratio, whilst the example of Ronaldinho being Ferguson's first choice and subsequently pulling out of a deal (may not even have been due to lack of finances) is one among few, certainly relative to our situation. And at least they were actually able to be right in there with a very good chance of signing him. As for this thing about having a 'prescribed budget', recent evidence from the Barry non-deal/deal would suggest that Rafa wasn't given a prescribed budget. I find it hard to believe that we would persist with the transfer - apparently agreeing a deal and then reneging on the deal - if a budget had been agreed. More likely, Rafa identifies his targets, approaches the board and they 'see whether they can get them', which means they reserve a certain remit themselves for assessing player value.

I know people will say "ah but hang on, we've got money in from sales" but it's worth noting that many managers are forced to sell their best players and don't actually get the money to replace them. Many managers have to cope with their best players being sold from under their feet, or their best players leaving for much bigger wages elsewhere (Hleb, Flamini and almost Adebayor anyone) so this often trotted out image of Rafa being some sort of badly done to down-trodden serf to his masters, doesn't wash with me.

I think the idea that people view Rafa as a 'down-trodden serf to his masters' is yet another exaggerated perception. The point about net spend is mainly due to timing, as we have often had to sell before we bought, and I can only conclude that this has had a detrimental effect on our ability to sign players. Man U and Chelsea have the luxury of identifying targets well in advance of the transfer window and signing them before or just after the window opens. Big money targets. With us, although I can't say for certain, it ceratainly seems that we have to feck about a bit before we consider signing the players we've identified. I think Rafa came out in an article recently and highlighted the point about signing players early, and not fecking about.

I don't rate Rierra at all but hopefully he can leave what I remember of his Man City form well behind and be a good signing. If he does, and I'll be watching for any signs like a hawk, I'll be the first on here saying what a w@nker I am, how fantastic he is, how wrong I was and what a great signing he is/was. Similarly Dossena, from what I've seen I don't think he's good enough but I am eagerly waiting to be proven wrong. But just like it would be churlish should Rierra turn out ot be a World beater to deny Rafa any praise on the grounds that "he was lucky to buy him, it wasn't even his first choice" it would be silly if these players aren't upto it to stick to the "ah but they weren't his first choice" line.

Dossena was by all accounts about 7 million quid, which whether he was first, second or twentieth choice is a fecking lot of money for a left full back. Rierra if he is between 6-9 million quid, is an expensive signing in his own right. As supporters of a club, fans are entitled to expect such signings to be at the very least an improvement on what we already have/had, and perhaps a fairly big improvement. This I think applies regardless of any wish-list which did or didn't come to pass.

Fair point - he's accountable at all times, but it's about being reasonable as to the circumstances he's had to work within - and I consider 'being reasonable' as to have expected by now, to have signed one full back and one wide player who are up to standard. That isn't the case and that's one of my main criticisms of Rafa during his time with us. I don't think it's reasonable to 'expect a Wenger' every time (that isn't what I think you expect either btw), but I would certainly expect a player of a higher standard than Riera, even if we only have £7-10m to spend. That's being reasonable. I don't think people will use the point about Rafa having to settle for a secondary target as a cop out if Riera turns out to be a complete flop, but if he's another 'not quite good enough' player, people might - as it's difficult to get a top quality player for that kind of money, in that position. There are exceptions and you can get very good players for that kind of money occasionally, as you mentioned - Young, and you could throw Arteta into that mix, but how many are out there at present?. Who would you sign for £7-10m (rough idea of what Riera may cost) that is good enough to nail down a place on one of the wings?

by **Number 9** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:06 pm

bigmick wrote:Sabes the Masherano at West Ham thing is a bit of an urban myth TBH. It was very political while he was there, and Pardew was very much opposed to the idea of playing an out and out holding midfielder. Not only didn't he make it, but he was kind of rotting in the reserves when we picked him up. The reasons for his "failure" though were far from being totally football related, there was by all accounts much twoing and frowing behind the scenes.

In the case of Riera, he actually did feature at man City for half a season and the overriding impression I got from the two or three times I saw him was that he didn't fancy it. There was plenty of sitting on his erse looking quizically at the ref, he didn't like it when the full-backs sat in tight, and he didn't show for the ball nor protect it well enough under physical pressure.

Now it maybe that he has developed as a footballer, infact it probably is the case, but he will need to have significantly altered his mentaility if he is going to succeed over here. He will get pressured, he will get tackled, he will get physically asked the question every single weekend. Unless he has the answers and the will to search for them, he will disappear off the radar quicker than you can say Carlos Kickaball. My feeling is that we will regret signing him fairly quickly, but obviously I hope I'm wrong.

Mick I would usually listen to what you have to say about players!But in that post you've just said you only ever seen Riera play 2 or 3 times.
The same with Dossena you seem to have your mind made up on him only after a couple of games,the man has come from a totally different footballing culture,it will take a little bit of time for him to adapt!

Now im not saying that either of the two will become world class players but I do think you are being a bit quick off the mark in making judgement.

by **bigmick** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:19 pm

Number 9 wrote:
bigmick wrote:Sabes the Masherano at West Ham thing is a bit of an urban myth TBH. It was very political while he was there, and Pardew was very much opposed to the idea of playing an out and out holding midfielder. Not only didn't he make it, but he was kind of rotting in the reserves when we picked him up. The reasons for his "failure" though were far from being totally football related, there was by all accounts much twoing and frowing behind the scenes.

In the case of Riera, he actually did feature at man City for half a season and the overriding impression I got from the two or three times I saw him was that he didn't fancy it. There was plenty of sitting on his erse looking quizically at the ref, he didn't like it when the full-backs sat in tight, and he didn't show for the ball nor protect it well enough under physical pressure.

Now it maybe that he has developed as a footballer, infact it probably is the case, but he will need to have significantly altered his mentaility if he is going to succeed over here. He will get pressured, he will get tackled, he will get physically asked the question every single weekend. Unless he has the answers and the will to search for them, he will disappear off the radar quicker than you can say Carlos Kickaball. My feeling is that we will regret signing him fairly quickly, but obviously I hope I'm wrong.

Mick I would usually listen to what you have to say about players!But in that post you've just said you only ever seen Riera play 2 or 3 times.
The same with Dossena you seem to have your mind made up on him only after a couple of games,the man has come from a totally different footballing culture,it will take a little bit of time for him to adapt!

Now im not saying that either of the two will become world class players but I do think you are being a bit quick off the mark in making judgement.

Agreed Baz, it's a bit knee jerkish there's no doubt about it.

In the case of Riera though my misgivings are more about looking into the whites of eyes, peering into the character of the man. I just didn't think he had the stomach for it, his head went down too easily and the towel was chucked in too readily. Once I've seen that in man (be it on a football pitch or not) he's not someone I'd be too keen on climbing nto the trenches with. Contrast with Keane who's done nothing so far, but I'd bet my life on the character of the lad carrying through and him becoming a top player for us.

As for Dossena, I can't really get my head around what he's supposed to be. He isn't quick enough, tricky enough or frankly good enough in my eyes to be a genuinely top quality attacking full back. Added to that, he isn't a good enough defender from what I've seen to be a solid one either. I know he's not to everyone's taste, but I firmly believe that Aurelio is a much better player.

LFC's post is a good one, and like Fagin in Oliver I am reviewing the situation and will come back.

by **sgs** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:27 pm

I first saw Riera in the 06/07 season when Espanyol went all the way to the UEFA cup final and he was very good. The form led him to the spanish national team.

What I especially like about him is his physical presence and the power aspects of his game. Channelled properly, he may well become a hit for us...

by **LFC2007** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:33 pm

Fecks sake, Fagin didn't take this long :no

by **Number 9** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:37 pm

I'd rather pick a pocket or two!

by **Number 9** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:11 am

Looking around a few sites there and Paco Herrera is talking for Espanyol!
It seems he said"Lots of big clubs and Everton have been seeking his signature"

Great the way he seperates Everton from big clubs!!
Knows what side his bread is buttered on!!

by **bigmick** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:19 am

Right so after a bit of consideration. This notion of a budget is one I'd stick to, everyone to a lesser or greater extent has to work within one. I would concede though that in the case of Barry it does appear that while the money does seem to have been available (which would have meant we'd spent around 50 million in the Summer after the signings of Keane, Ngog, the goalie whose name escapes me and Dossena) the board actually pulled the plug on the deal as they judged the price to be too steep. Now whoever is advising the owners (and I assume they are acting under advice) is hardly being outlandish in their assessment of the situation. Most people on here think the price is too steep for a player of Barry's age, and the fact the board agree is probably an indication that they are working to a slightly different agenda than Rafa.

By that I mean this. Most people are of the view I think that if we don't at least launch a credible challenge this season the manager will go. Some of us even think that he should go if it doesn't come to pass. I would guess that Rafa knows it as well, hence the reduction in rotation which we are seeing and will continue to see, the reduction in "options" and "possibility" players, and the attempts to buy genuine first team players who are based over here. None of that I would argue with, but clearly Rafa is gambling everything on buying Keane for a top endish 20 million, and attempting to buy Barry for the kind of fees bandied about. The board I suppose have to take a slightly longer term view. It's all very well Rafa spunking 40 mill on two players in their late twenties as one last gamble, but I do think it's legitimate to reign him in just a fraction, which is what appears to have happened.

As for the "down trodden" bit, my post was in response to various others bemoaning the fact that the manager is unable to get his primary targets all the time. My point is, very few managers can. Those of us who have been critical of the manager though do sometimes get the feeling that people sometimes look for excuses somewhat when it comes to assessing him. If it's not being unlucky, it's the fixture list, the referees, some emails, lack of cash or inability to buy primary targets. I think this is the reason for my initial post, an attempt to keep the discussion real visa vis what we do and don't do in the transfer market. It's probably worth remembering that we pipped Everton to Riera's signature, the same team we spent most of last season tussling with in the league. They've signed one bloke on a free so far, as well as selling Andy Johnson for over 10 million. Winning the Premiership certainly isn't easy, but finishing and being miles better than teams like that ought to be, as should at some stage launching a challenge. Anyway, I don't quite share your confidence that should Rierra be a flop people won't bang on about him not being a first choice, but we'll see. There is also the argument that if we didn't waste untold funds buying and aquiring various naer do wells which either aren't good enough or will never be good enough or haven't started shaving yet we'd have more money to spend on primary targets but that's another question.

As for alternatives, well not seeing much football these days it's not an easy question to answer. Wide midfielders for under 10 million, (I say wide because left midifelders are rare indeed and because any wide midfielder of any note is better than Kuyt). Someone mentioned Peterson from Blackburn, I think he's better than Riera. I also think Sean Wright Phillips would be a decent buy, Aaron Lennon from Tottenham. I think Gareth Bale will be an excellent player for them this season and for many more, and I think Theo walcott will make a footballer although maybe cost more than 10. I like Kieran Richardson at Sunderland and think he would be a player in a good team, while as has been mentioned Arteta is capable of much better than where he is. Abroad there's no doubt hundreds of players, you just need to find one with ersehole for it, which I don't think Rierra has.

All in all though, it's not easy to buy first teamers for 5 million, particularly not when you buy three or four of them. Better to just buy the one player and kind of concentrate your resources I reckon.

by **LittleHobo** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:45 am

ok heres a fact.

riera only played 15 times for city, is that enough to judge him on?

many players who have gone on to be big hits have started poorly

also at the time he was in an awful shittt city team that barely attacked?

i say you cant judge him based on that

this will be for 10 million ish, and i dont think rafa will get it wrong now at a critical time for us to progress.

also moyes wants him and moyes rarely gets big money transfers wrong

by **bigmick** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:53 am

LittleHobo wrote:ok heres a fact.

riera only played 15 times for city, is that enough to judge him on?

Yes, well it is for me anyway. I only saw him play two or three times in that period. Now I could say "I've only seen him play three times so I have absolutely no opinion whatsoever on how good he is". "He may be good, but then again he may be sh!t". Or, I could offer an opinion.

I've gone for the second one, and if I'm wrong you can happily join the band of people who will no doubt tell me to shove it up me erse. Infact, I suppose it being a free country and all that you don't actually have to wait that long if you don't want, you could just tell me to shove it up me erse anyway

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