Liverpool FC Forum

by **Kharhaz** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:36 am

LFC2007 wrote:Isn't the emergance of Torres as arguably the best out-and-out striker in the league, but also Mascherano who's arguably the best out-and-out defensive midfielder in the league, a key reason to keep Rafa as manager?

Torres, I'd imagine, would be very disappointed to see Rafa go. He's expressed his support for the manager throughout the season, and forms a crucial component of our team. Rafa brought him to the club, he took a gamble on him for a record fee, and he's getting the best out of him and he'll probably get better. He's someone who could go on to be one of our all-time greats. Seeing as we often seem to be on the topic of 'fluency and rhythm', 'confidence and consistency', wouldn't removing Rafa as manager compromise the development of Torres? The players, especially the Spanish players, often mention the feeling surrounding the club - the Spanish influence et al - and how it makes it easier to settle, and easier to assimilate. It's a working environment conducive to Torres' development. Mascherano is equally very grateful that Rafa brought him to the club, he supports his vision for he future and is a born and bred winner.

Just when we seem to be getting the pieces in place for a bright future, wouldn't it be a bit naive to sack him? Would it not be an oversight to ignore the effect that the loss of the man who brought these players to the club might have?

I think it would.

Me also. Rafa has more of an influence with other players also other than the spanish or foreign players. Gerrard loved houillier in the way that there was a mutual respect and nothing more was asked of our captain, Rafa respects gerrards talent and can see he can improve further, something rafa can see in all our most talented players.

by **Rush Job** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:55 am

LFC2007 wrote:Isn't the emergence of Torres as arguably the best out-and-out striker in the league, but also Mascherano who's arguably the best out-and-out defensive midfielder in the league, a key reason to keep Rafa as manager?

Torres, I'd imagine, would be very disappointed to see Rafa go. He's expressed his support for the manager throughout the season, and forms a crucial component of our team. Rafa brought him to the club, he took a gamble on him for a record fee, and he's getting the best out of him and he'll probably get better. He's someone who could go on to be one of our all-time greats. Seeing as we often seem to be on the topic of 'fluency and rhythm', 'confidence and consistency', wouldn't removing Rafa as manager compromise the development of Torres? The players, especially the Spanish players, often mention the feeling surrounding the club - the Spanish influence et al - and how it makes it easier to settle, and easier to assimilate. It's a working environment conducive to Torres' development. Mascherano is equally very grateful that Rafa brought him to the club, he supports his vision for he future and is a born and bred winner.

Just when we seem to be getting the pieces in place for a bright future, wouldn't it be a bit naive to sack him? Would it not be an oversight to ignore the effect that the loss of the man who brought these players to the club might have?

I think it would.

It would, a blind man could see that under Rafa the clubs geared up for success from youth to the reserves to the "first team" we are being built up for continued success.
Athough we do need to start consistantly challenging for the prem but expecting to be winning league titles a few years in baring in mind were the club was when he took over isnt reallistic IMO.
Sacking Rafa would be madness in every sence.

by **ruskiy playmaker** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:37 am

I have to say that I thought there was no way Rafa would be here for next season after those poor results. But now it seems that he will stay, because he has patched up his relationship with the owners and he signed up Masch for good. I think next season will be a very positive one.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:39 pm

LFC2007 wrote:Just when we seem to be getting the pieces in place for a bright future, wouldn't it be a bit naive to sack him? Would it not be an oversight to ignore the effect that the loss of the man who brought these players to the club might have?

I think it would.

You can't say that just because a manager has brought players in means he shouldn't be sacked. Souness gave the debut to Robbie Fowler, Mark Wright and Rob Jones as well as helping Redknapp and McManaman progress into great players for this club. Should we never of sacked Souness then?

by **Rush Job** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:03 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:Just when we seem to be getting the pieces in place for a bright future, wouldn't it be a bit naive to sack him? Would it not be an oversight to ignore the effect that the loss of the man who brought these players to the club might have?

I think it would.

You can't say that just because a manager has brought players in means he shouldn't be sacked. Souness gave the debut to Robbie Fowler, Mark Wright and Rob Jones as well as helping Redknapp and McManaman progress into great players for this club. Should we never of sacked Souness then?

Come off it how the feck can you compare Rafa to GS? you do remember those days dont you?
The players you mentioned helped make it barable but most of em wernt even his, yet for all the money he spent the only good thing about the side back then was the youth that come though. When you think of who he let go and who he brought in it leaves me dumbfounded that you can compare the two.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:14 pm

Rush Job wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:Just when we seem to be getting the pieces in place for a bright future, wouldn't it be a bit naive to sack him? Would it not be an oversight to ignore the effect that the loss of the man who brought these players to the club might have?

I think it would.

You can't say that just because a manager has brought players in means he shouldn't be sacked. Souness gave the debut to Robbie Fowler, Mark Wright and Rob Jones as well as helping Redknapp and McManaman progress into great players for this club. Should we never of sacked Souness then?

Come off it how the feck can you compare Rafa to GS? you do remember those days dont you?
The players you mentioned helped make it barable but most of em wernt even his, yet for all the money he spent the only good thing about the side back then was the youth that come though. When you think of who he let go and who he brought in it leaves me dumbfounded that you can compare the two.

I'm not comparing the two, I'm just pointing out that Souness brought in/through some talented players as well, but that doesn't excuse him from being sacked. Likewise just because Benitez brought Torres and Mascheranho to the club doesn't mean he can't be sacked.

Do we remember the signings of Josemi, Nunez, Morientes, Kromkamp, Voronin, Kuyt, Intandje, Gonzalez, Bellamy and Aurellio? If a manager is based on his transfers there's a good nine reasons why Benitez should be sacked.

Benitez has brought quality to this club, Reina, Agger, Arbeloa, Crouch, Skrtel (by the looks of things) Babel, Lucas, Alonso along with Torres and Mascheranho, but just because of that, doesn't mean he can't be sacked.

That's the point I'm making.

by **Yari7** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:14 pm

Sacking Rafa would be stupid. Lets sack the guy who has taken us to the Champions League final twice.

Rafa is still building. We are still getting rid of Houllier's youth system which produced absolutely no International players(considering we brought in Pongolle, Cheyrou, Biscan as well as many more) during that time. During that time we have waved to a number of players who got a look in but simply werent good enough. Ostemobor, Welsh, Warnock, Mellor...

Benitez is bringing in youth trying to get them in. But he doesnt waste time with them either... If they dont work. They are shipped out. Nunez, Kromkamp, Gonzalez, Morientes etc

I still beleive that we are still at least two years from seeing the full fruits of Benitez labour.

We must give him time. In the 4 years he has been here, he has establisehd us as a force in Europe which will make it easier for him to attract top players should the money be there. If we want to compete with the big teams, we have to spend liek the big teams.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:25 pm

Two years eh Yari. I take it you mean two more after this year. That would make it six years, the same as Houllier. Is six years long enough or do we still stick by him and say now he's got the side he wants lets give him another five years to see what he does with it?

Benitez may have gotten us to two european cup finals, he's also got us knocked out of the same competition by Benfica....oh no wait when we lose it's the players fault isn't it? Silly me. He's also got us knocked out to Burnley and Barnsley...oh no that was the players as well. Silly me. He's also taken us no closer to winning the league than Houllier was. He's brought in some really sh!t players during his four years. He's constantly lost us games with playing players who simplely aren't up to the task.

I think the last couple of months, he deserves credit. He's kept realtively the same side week in week out. He's guided us to just eight points off top. He deserves credit for the success he's brought to this club. European Cup, FA Cup and six or seven world stars in his signings and I am starting to lean giving him another year because he looks like he's realised that players who play week in week out are going to give the best performances. So if takes this philosphy into next season, we stand a much better chance of winning the league. But the fact that we can all be 90% certain that come next season he'll be rotating to a huge extent again means it's another year that will pass us by. I can't see us winning the league under Benitez, so for that reason he has to go IMO. I don't want us to become just a cup team and at the moment that's where we're heading.

by **Yari7** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:43 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Two years eh Yari. I take it you mean two more after this year. That would make it six years, the same as Houllier. Is six years long enough or do we still stick by him and say now he's got the side he wants lets give him another five years to see what he does with it?

Benitez may have gotten us to two european cup finals, he's also got us knocked out of the same competition by Benfica....oh no wait when we lose it's the players fault isn't it? Silly me. He's also got us knocked out to Burnley and Barnsley...oh no that was the players as well. Silly me. He's also taken us no closer to winning the league than Houllier was. He's brought in some really sh!t players during his four years. He's constantly lost us games with playing players who simplely aren't up to the task.

I think the last couple of months, he deserves credit. He's kept realtively the same side week in week out. He's guided us to just eight points off top. He deserves credit for the success he's brought to this club. European Cup, FA Cup and six or seven world stars in his signings and I am starting to lean giving him another year because he looks like he's realised that players who play week in week out are going to give the best performances. So if takes this philosphy into next season, we stand a much better chance of winning the league. But the fact that we can all be 90% certain that come next season he'll be rotating to a huge extent again means it's another year that will pass us by. I can't see us winning the league under Benitez, so for that reason he has to go IMO. I don't want us to become just a cup team and at the moment that's where we're heading.

The fact is, he has taken us to 2 European Cup finals, and a Champions League Quarter Final which he has a chance to improve on.

Yes, he did get us knocked out by Burnley and Barnsley, but you conveiniently forget that he also steered us to a FA Cup Victory.

And he may have bouight in some players who have failed. Maybe it's because he is trying to bring in players to match those of Chelsea or Man Utd, but with half the money. When Man Utd or Chelsea need a forward, they go ahead and spend 30 million on Schvechenko or 24 million on Drgba, while Man Utd go and spend $20 million on Rooney. Up until this season, Benetiz was given 10 million to spend on the lieks of Bellamy or 8 million on the likes of Crouch and we expect to compete with Chelsea and Man Utd.

Another example, when we need a right winger, we spend 7 million on Jermain Pennant because we have no choice, while Chelsea spend 20 million on Wright Phillips and United Spend 17 million on Nani or 17 million on Anderson.

Yet we expect these players to compete with the players that United and Chelsea have bought in.

Benetiz is building. He has taken us to 2 European cup finals and established us as a force in Europe again. And I feel we are now getting closer in the league.

And we still have the prospect of maybe another European Cup final to look forward.

by **The Manhattan Project** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:49 pm

Wright-Phillips would be good at LFC.

But he's content to be a fringe player at Chavsea.

Some people have no ambition.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:56 pm

Well as far as I'm concerned Yari that's a massive contradiction. You can't say we can't compete then bang on about europe. Surely the money side of things counts just as much in europe as it does in the league. Or am I being silly by believing that.

Next so what if they spend 17 million on Nani or 24 on Wright-Phillips a price tag is only what a club is worth to sell for and buy for, not a fair price of the players ability. I constantly use Veron as the prime example. Both United and Chelsea spent 20 million plus on him and he was a waste of time in England. So just because they spend that money doesn't mean they buy better players. So I never accept the money issue, for me it's just a very convienent excuse that people are blinded by.

I didn't forget Benitez won us the FA Cup as you will see if you read it properly. Benitez is building? The yanks have been slaughtered for not building a stadium in 18 months, yet Benitez is praised for not building a squad in four years

As far as I'm concerned this squad is good enough to be up there fighting, rather than saying "give him two more years"

by **Yari7** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:08 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Well as far as I'm concerned Yari that's a massive contradiction. You can't say we can't compete then bang on about europe. Surely the money side of things counts just as much in europe as it does in the league. Or am I being silly by believing that.

Next so what if they spend 17 million on Nani or 24 on Wright-Phillips a price tag is only what a club is worth to sell for and buy for, not a fair price of the players ability. I constantly use Veron as the prime example. Both United and Chelsea spent 20 million plus on him and he was a waste of time in England. So just because they spend that money doesn't mean they buy better players. So I never accept the money issue, for me it's just a very convienent excuse that people are blinded by.

I didn't forget Benitez won us the FA Cup as you will see if you read it properly. Benitez is building? The yanks have been slaughtered for not building a stadium in 18 months, yet Benitez is praised for not building a squad in four years As far as I'm concerned this squad is good enough to be up there fighting, rather than saying "give him two more years"

Europe and the Premiership are two different things. Completley different styles. In European football, the knockout stages are played over 2 legs and are more tactical which Benitez is suited to better than anyone else.

The premiership is a different style, different pace and much more games.

There is an exception to every rule and Veron is the exception. Veron was a 20 million flop. What about Ronaldo, Rooney, Ferdinand, Tevez who are now key to the succes of United.

Look at Chelsea. It is no surprise that when they started investing in top quality players, they became a force in the premiership.

We cant be paying 6 million -10 million for players and expect them to compete with players with 20 million price tags.

We have invested 40 mill in Masch and Torres and you can see the payback. Both are world class players.

Benitez has done as best as he can in the league. Our squad is not as good as Chelsea or Uniteds so it really is no surprise we are not challenging in the league.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:33 pm

Yari7 wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Well as far as I'm concerned Yari that's a massive contradiction. You can't say we can't compete then bang on about europe. Surely the money side of things counts just as much in europe as it does in the league. Or am I being silly by believing that.

Next so what if they spend 17 million on Nani or 24 on Wright-Phillips a price tag is only what a club is worth to sell for and buy for, not a fair price of the players ability. I constantly use Veron as the prime example. Both United and Chelsea spent 20 million plus on him and he was a waste of time in England. So just because they spend that money doesn't mean they buy better players. So I never accept the money issue, for me it's just a very convienent excuse that people are blinded by.

I didn't forget Benitez won us the FA Cup as you will see if you read it properly. Benitez is building? The yanks have been slaughtered for not building a stadium in 18 months, yet Benitez is praised for not building a squad in four years As far as I'm concerned this squad is good enough to be up there fighting, rather than saying "give him two more years"

Europe and the Premiership are two different things. Completley different styles. In European football, the knockout stages are played over 2 legs and are more tactical which Benitez is suited to better than anyone else.

The premiership is a different style, different pace and much more games.

There is an exception to every rule and Veron is the exception. Veron was a 20 million flop. What about Ronaldo, Rooney, Ferdinand, Tevez who are now key to the succes of United.

Look at Chelsea. It is no surprise that when they started investing in top quality players, they became a force in the premiership.

We cant be paying 6 million -10 million for players and expect them to compete with players with 20 million price tags.

We have invested 40 mill in Masch and Torres and you can see the payback. Both are world class players.

Benitez has done as best as he can in the league. Our squad is not as good as Chelsea or Uniteds so it really is no surprise we are not challenging in the league.

Ronaldo cost 12 million...same as Babel.
Tevez is only on loan.

So there pretty bad examples there, it proves money isn't as important as people like to make out. I could say Arbeloa cost us less than five million yet is a much better player than that Bholourous fella Chelsea forked out millions for.

And Veron is the only exception? Are we forgetting Forlan, Reyes, Kezman, Cisse, Kleberson, Djemba-Djemba, Wiltord or Sergi Rebrov? (to name but a few)

Our squad isn't as good, OK, so does that mean Everton, Villa, City, Blackburn and Portsmouth who haven't spent 40 million on two players, are as good as us? Again this is why money will never be accepted by me as a valid excuse. People seem it only matters for Liverpool. Why then are Newcastle only three points off relegation, when they've spent more than most sides in the league? On that theory then they should surely be in the top four shouldn't they?

Benitez has done the best he can in the league? 39 points behind is the best he could do? 21 points is the best he could do? Drawing to Wigan, Villa, Birmingham, Spurs, Portsmouth and City is the best he can do?

by **Yari7** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:48 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Ronaldo cost 12 million...same as Babel.
Tevez is only on loan.

So there pretty bad examples there, it proves money isn't as important as people like to make out. I could say Arbeloa cost us less than five million yet is a much better player than that Bholourous fella Chelsea forked out millions for.

And Veron is the only exception? Are we forgetting Forlan, Reyes, Kezman, Cisse, Kleberson, Djemba-Djemba, Wiltord or Sergi Rebrov? (to name but a few)

Our squad isn't as good, OK, so does that mean Everton, Villa, City, Blackburn and Portsmouth who haven't spent 40 million on two players, are as good as us? Again this is why money will never be accepted by me as a valid excuse. People seem it only matters for Liverpool. Why then are Newcastle only three points off relegation, when they've spent more than most sides in the league? On that theory then they should surely be in the top four shouldn't they?

Benitez has done the best he can in the league? 39 points behind is the best he could do? 21 points is the best he could do? Drawing to Wigan, Villa, Birmingham, Spurs, Portsmouth and City is the best he can do?

I was under the impression that Tevez will cost £30 million + altogether for United.

Lets look at the clubs that have dominated the premiership in the last 4 years. We are looking at Chelsea and United. 2 clubs who have spent millions and millions on individual quality players.

Yes, there are exceptions, but the general rule is that it is the quality players who have helped United and Chelsea dominate the league and quality costs money.

The fact is Liverpool do not have as much qualioty in their squad as United or Chelsea.

This season, whe have started spending on quality playersd like Torres and Mascherano and it is showing. Babel is showing signs of beign a good player and if he develops into what we expect, he will have been a bargain.

When this season is over, I am confident we will be closer to the title then any other time under Benitez.

by **LFC2007** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:03 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:Just when we seem to be getting the pieces in place for a bright future, wouldn't it be a bit naive to sack him? Would it not be an oversight to ignore the effect that the loss of the man who brought these players to the club might have?

I think it would.

You can't say that just because a manager has brought players in means he shouldn't be sacked. Souness gave the debut to Robbie Fowler, Mark Wright and Rob Jones as well as helping Redknapp and McManaman progress into great players for this club. Should we never of sacked Souness then?

No, I can't say just because he signed those players he shouldn't be sacked and that's not what I've said. I can say and what I have said is; because I think he's a top manager, and because those players are now crucial to our future - players who he no doubt has a bond with having brought them here - I don't think he should be sacked, i.e. it's a key point against sacking him.

Liverpool FC Forum

So who do you want to replace him ?

Who is online