Liverpool FC Forum

Bamaga man wrote:Good post Rafa and I can see where the pair of you are coming from. Its my opinion in football that you play the same back five for the majority part of the season who are tried and tested. All which points to the obvious like you both said is to get an understanding and a kind a telepathy amongst them. But lets be brutally honest here and say that Hyypia isnt going to be around for the next five years .... or whatever. Yes I know all that, he's quick in the head and can still read the game, but eventually Rafa is going to have to bring in a new age of defenders. And one who's going to have to step into Sami's shoes, which is no mean feat. Logic is obviously telling Rafa to blend Agger into the side and get him accustomed to the prem and the football our game has to offer. Theres no point in dropping him in at the deep end in two years time with no experiance, as his learning curve will start from then, and not now. Also in doing this it will allow Hyypia vital rest periods during the course of the season. So for me and it seems for Rafa the positive balance of blooding Agger in now outways the risk of throwing him in later on. The only other question which can be asked really about the starting of Agger ahead of Hyypia is in what kind of game and opposition. Thats something the boss has to choose as he sees it, and obviously if the results dont go the right way people will always say in hindsight ....' arh we should of played blah blah instead of him' and not too much will be said of his selection choice if we win.

On the topic of our defence the same can be said for giving Auelio a go and resting Riise from time to time. But from what I've see of him he looks like a possible liabilty in terms of defending. He does look comfortable on the ball and looks a neat and tidy player, but first and foremost what I'd like to see from a defender, is the ability to defend more than anything else first and foremost, (just like Carra). But how do you know if these new players are ever going to cut the mustard if they dont get the chance to play often. Rafa has tried with Aurelio, and at the mo he doesnt look nearly assured like Agger does when filling in for Sami. So in the instance of the LB position and IMO I'd only look to play Aurelio if Riis was injured, because he doesnt look as though he can bring in the defensive qualities when rotating between the two. So yes if the quality in back-up is reliable as your regular first team members, then yes by all accounts rotate like Agger Sami, but if not, play your best backline and keeper every game.

As for missing Momo, any squad would miss him and his destructive abilities in their squad. I would like though to see him improve immensly on his distribution, touch and his forward play before I can honestly say he deserves Gerrard's position in CM on a regular basis. For me at the moment he doesnt quite warrant that position ahead of our captain. I dont really agree with others who think we should play Momo depending on the opposition, if he can force his way back into the team then great. But I'm of the opinion it should be our opposition who change their formation and tactics when they play us, not the other way round. But Momo is a loss to our squad definantly, and a blow to the team, and I was one of the early season worshippers who carried on about how the African played and was blinding when others werent. But having him in the side regulary nulifies our attacking instincts greatly through the middle, where Gerrad offers more going forward, while still doing the ball wininng stuff in the defensive third.

As for Fowler I think he should most definately get more playing time, he, come to think of it is the ONLY natural player in the squad who can tuck the ball away as if its second nature to him. I have said all along that for all our strikers hardwork and effort, there is a definate lack of clinicalness (is that a word?) in front of goal between Kuyt,Crouch and Bellamy. And when you take into account our only other real goal threat from midfield is Gerrard, then to me an out and out goal getter is very much needed. Even if Fowler cant manage us much more in terms of goals and fitness, Rafa should really keep an eye out, and I'm sure he has on a poacher whether its in the transfer market or the academy we're in need of one. But until then I'd give Fowler the oppotunity more regulaly. 

As for Pennant the jury is still out, but one thing is sure. He's definatley not the player that Stu hyped him up to be. At the moment he looks just an average midfielder with his eyes caught like a rabbits in the headlights of a car. I personally would of chosen the " big name" signing of SWP over Pennant as he offers more of a goal threat aswell as confidence and ability to take a player on, tied up with workrate. But I'll still give Pennant the time as I will with Gonzo.

s@int wrote:Player From Fee Date
Jean Michel Ferri Istanbulspor £1,500,000 28.11.1998
Frode Kippe Lillestrøm £700,000 06.01.1999
Rigobert Song Salernitana £2,600,000 26.01.1999
Djimi Traore Laval £550,000 18.02.1999
Sami Hyypia Willem II £2,500,000 19.05.1999
Vladimir Smicer Lens £3,750,000 24.05.1999
Titi Camara Marseille £2,600,000 01.06.1999
Stephane Henchoz Blackburn £3,500,000 02.06.1999
Sander Westerveld Vitesse Arnhem £4,000,000 15.06.1999
Erik Meijer Leverkusen Free* 01.07.1999
Dietmar Hamann Newcastle £8,000,000 22.07.1999
Emile Heskey Leicester £11,000,000 10.03.2000
Bernard Diomede Auxerre £3,000,000 07.06.2000
Gary McAllister Coventry Free 01.07.2000
Markus Babbel Bayern Munich Free* 01.07.2000
Pegguy Arphexad Leicester Free* 01.07.2000
Nick Barmby Everton £6,000,000 18.07.2000
Christian Ziege Middlesbrough £5,500,000 25.08.2000
Gregory Vignal Montpellier £500,000 22.09.2000
Daniel Sjolund West Ham £1,000,000 28.11.2000
Igor Biscan Dynamo Zagreb £5,500,000 07.12.2000
Jari Litmanen Barcelona Free 04.01.2001
John Arne Riise Monaco £4,000,000 20.06.2001
Milan Baros Banik Ostrava £3,200,000 26.07.2001
Chris Kirkland Coventry £6,000,000* 31.08.2001
Jerzy Dudek Feyenoord £4,850,000 31.08.2001
Nicolas Anelka Paris St Germain On Loan* 20.12.2001
Abel Xavier Everton £750,000 30.01.2002
Bruno Cheyrou Lille £3,700,000 16.05.2002
El Hadji Diouf Lens £10,000,000 01.06.2002
Alou Diarra Bayern Munich Free 09.07.2002
Patrice Luzi Monaco Free 29.07.2002
Salif Diao Sedan £4,700,000 06.08.2002
Steve Finnan Fulham £3,500,000 01.07.2003
Anthony Le Tallec Le Havre £1,500,000* 01.07.2003
Florent S Pongolle Le Havre £1,500,000* 01.07.2003
Harry Kewell Leeds United £5,000,000 09.07.2003
Carl Medjani St Etienne Free 08.08.2003
Paul Jones Southampton On Loan* 09.01.2004
Djibril Cisse Auxerre £14,500,000* 01.07.2004


Gerard Houllier bought 40 players for £125,400,000


The reason Houlier was a poor manager!

To make matters worse he let 2 of his best signings go for no apparent reason in Anelka and Litmenen, and allowed Owen to run his contract down after saying he would never let it happen again after McManaman.

He also left Liverpool with a lot of "deadwood" that no one wanted on tremendous wages. Diao being the prime example.

Jeez , that makes for some painful reading Saint , and just when I'd began to forget about most of them .

Diomede bought for THREE MILLION QUID , MADE 5 APPEARANCES IN THREE YEARS AND LEFT ON A FREE AFTER HIS CONTRACT EXPIRED

Ouch !

s@int wrote:

Where on earth you get the rediculous notion that Newcastle and Chelsea were better is beyond me, infact its quite pathetic and completely floors your arguement beyond any reasoning whatsoever. I'm fed up of arguing with idiots like yourself. You bore me as does your complete lack of knowledge and respect for this club and servants.

98/99 chelsea 75 pts  Liverpool 54 PTS
00/01 chelsea 65 pts  Liverpool 67pts
01/02 chelsea 64 pts  Liverpool 80pts
02/03 chelsea 67 pts  Liverpool 64pts
03/04 chelsea 79 pts  Liverpool 60pts

TOTAL        350 pts   Liverpool 325 pts

As for you being a good judge, firstly you've just admitted you don't understand the game. Within that the tactical movements, you probably have no idea how these players train, what they do in training, positional play, team movement, technical ability, tactical ability, quality, player potential and ability, mentality, man management nor do you have a balanced view on anything to do with Houllier or Liverpool under his management.

Obviously compared to your vast knowledge of the game us poor mortals would appear not to understand the game, in just the same way as you appear not to understand sarcasm.

Carragher has always been the same player. Yet fools can't recognise this, people said he was average when he never was, he's always been excellent defensively, people now say he's world class and he's nowhere near it, he's simply excellent defensively

He is also playing in his best position now and not at fullback as he was under Houllier.

Houllier's failiure was simple. He didn't build on his early success and made massive mistakes in the market. Absoloutely no way is the man a poor manager.

Any manager that makes so many massive mistakes in the transfer market is a liability not a good manager!

I didn't forget Anelka mate I said that it was Houllier who let him go 

So you're saying 2 free transfers, a loan player, and three actual transfers (less than £15million in total)are the best you can come up with in his defence for him spending £125million!

Now your just making a fool out of yourself. Your trying to defend the indefensible.

Chelsea didn't once reach 80 points. The team that got 54 points was Roy Evans team, so theres your gap over the years gone straight away. Chelsea then gained Abramovic in 2003 and started to spend stupid money.

Also where are Newcastle?

You bang on about the transfers, yet you're using hindsight as your weapon. I'm sorry, but nearly every match going supporter could see that Heskey, at the time, was a good signing. He let himself down in the years that followed but that first sesaon he was excellent. Anyone who watched the game could see he was making us a better team when he played and brough alot to the side with his holding of the ball, his pace and his play out wide.

Houllier made some AWFUL signings. Some very average ones. Some good ones and some excellent ones. This is my point, idiots don't give him credit for it. He improved the team in each of the first three years.

Player From Fee Date
Jean Michel Ferri Istanbulspor £1,500,000 28.11.1998
Frode Kippe Lillestrøm £700,000 06.01.1999
Rigobert Song Salernitana £2,600,000 26.01.1999
Djimi Traore Laval £550,000 18.02.1999
Sami Hyypia Willem II £2,500,000 19.05.1999
Vladimir Smicer Lens £3,750,000 24.05.1999
Titi Camara Marseille £2,600,000 01.06.1999
Stephane Henchoz Blackburn £3,500,000 02.06.1999
Sander Westerveld Vitesse Arnhem £4,000,000 15.06.1999
Erik Meijer Leverkusen Free* 01.07.1999
Dietmar Hamann Newcastle £8,000,000 22.07.1999
Emile Heskey Leicester £11,000,000 10.03.2000
Bernard Diomede Auxerre £3,000,000 07.06.2000
Gary McAllister Coventry Free 01.07.2000
Markus Babbel Bayern Munich Free* 01.07.2000
Pegguy Arphexad Leicester Free* 01.07.2000
Nick Barmby Everton £6,000,000 18.07.2000
Christian Ziege Middlesbrough £5,500,000 25.08.2000
Gregory Vignal Montpellier £500,000 22.09.2000
Daniel Sjolund West Ham £1,000,000 28.11.2000
Igor Biscan Dynamo Zagreb £5,500,000 07.12.2000
Jari Litmanen Barcelona Free 04.01.2001
John Arne Riise Monaco £4,000,000 20.06.2001
Milan Baros Banik Ostrava £3,200,000 26.07.2001
Chris Kirkland Coventry £6,000,000* 31.08.2001
Jerzy Dudek Feyenoord £4,850,000 31.08.2001
Nicolas Anelka Paris St Germain On Loan* 20.12.2001
Abel Xavier Everton £750,000 30.01.2002
Bruno Cheyrou Lille £3,700,000 16.05.2002
El Hadji Diouf Lens £10,000,000 01.06.2002
Alou Diarra Bayern Munich Free 09.07.2002
Patrice Luzi Monaco Free 29.07.2002
Salif Diao Sedan £4,700,000 06.08.2002
Steve Finnan Fulham £3,500,000 01.07.2003
Anthony Le Tallec Le Havre £1,500,000* 01.07.2003
Florent S Pongolle Le Havre £1,500,000* 01.07.2003
Harry Kewell Leeds United £5,000,000 09.07.2003
Carl Medjani St Etienne Free 08.08.2003
Paul Jones Southampton On Loan* 09.01.2004
Djibril Cisse Auxerre £14,500,000* 01.07.2004

Waste of money.

Cisse, Diao, Cheyrou, Diomede, Ferri, Diouf, Xavier, Barmby.

Decent signings that were needed at the time.

Song, Westerveld, Camara.

Players that we all would have took and thought would be better than they were but were not bad signings

Heskey, Zeige, Smicer.

Players who should still be at the club or had the potential to do something

Vignal, Sinama-Pongolle, Kirkland.

Good signings

Baros, Traore (not for ability, but for service and sale value), Henchoz, Smicer, Dudek, Sinama-Pongolle, Vignal, Litmanen.

Excellent signings

Hyypia, Babbel, McAllister, Hamann, Anelka, Kewell, Riise.

The fact is when you are as bad as we were when he took over you can't go from being an average side to a very good one with a low turn over of players unless everyone you sign is of Hyypia's standard. Alot of players like Song, and Westerveld were simply to improve the team at the time and were not seen as long term soloutions, more like stop gaps untill we sign what we want.

Houllier completely changed the Liverpool side from what it was under Evans and built from the back. If Houllier was that poor and so many of his signings were not upto it, why the has Benitez still got the same back four, and the same left winger?

Why doesn't Benitez go and find another Hyypia and Babbel now? We certainly could do with young quality replacements for them both. £3million pounds those two cost. Infact, why don't we go the whole way and find a new back four with £11m.

Riise, Hyypia, Henchoz and Babbel would have been a hell of a back four had he not been so unfortunate to lose Babbel to illness, who at the time would be like us losing Alonso now. The attack of Anelka and Owen were far far far better than anything we have there today... The fact is, had Houllier been a little more fortunate, we would only have been 3 players away from having an unbelievabley strong side. As it was his best side

Lets just ask a quick question...

Owen Anelka
Kewell Hamann Gerrard Murphy
Riise Hyypia Henchoz Babbel
Dudek

How many of those would get into our side today? I'm thinking at least 8. Babbel was a massive loss, as I said, like losing Alonso today. Hamann wasn't far off Alonso and Dudek at his best wasn't a million miles off Reina. The fact is under Houllier we had better strikers and better players at the back. Houllier isn't as good tactically as Benitez, but there dealings in the transfer market, both so far have been very average.

Rafa-Dodd wrote:STR 18 + 5,

    Your inability to see past the Houllier debacle and Pennant's so called "ability" is one of your major negatives. Your standing on a sinking ship with Houllier argument mate, let it go.

  Also since I have been on these boards S@int has been a constant source of wisdom and knowledge on all things Liverpool. Your insulting him to suggest otherwise.

  Your arguements, although well planned out, are full of insults and aggressive to try and bully your point across. It doesn't wash mate.

You call S@int a wool - bang out of order. Bab Bob, S@int and bigmick are all "wools" and 3 of the best posters on here.

  We do criticise the team, look back at posts. We've criticised corners, our set pieces, PENNANT and even the rotation in recent months.

  I respect your views and take them on board, please try to do the same.

Rafa-Dodd

Bigmick's a cockney and knows his football.

Bad Bobs a canadian and knows his football.

I have no problem with either poster as they see reasonable debate, they can see there are players from outside of Liverpool and they can see ability and quality and what it takes to make a player apart from the badge on their shirt. They don't think that because a player plays for us they're all of a sudden a great footballer and because they play for West Ham they couldn't possibly be better than somone who plays for us.

They aren't wools. A wool is from lancashire/St Helens.

Am not bein funny, but the kissing on here is pathetic. You here the truth and you all gang up and beomce the might in Rafa we trust and can do no wrong brigrade. Its this attitdude that me off more than anything. You get all the who hated Houllier taking about him and not being objective, just throwing sly little digs and having a pop at every opportunity, then you get all those doing the EXACT opposite with Rafa that if you so much as whisper anything against him they all want to castrate you and it really me off.

You lot are typical of the reasons the bitters say kopites are . Liverpool fans used to have knowledge of the game, they USED to appreciate quality. Now its just a bunch of out of town bellends who want to be associated with the most successful club in the country.

s@int wrote:

The fact is when you are as bad as we were when he took over you can't go from being an average side to a very good one with a low turn over of players unless everyone you sign is of Hyypia's standard. Alot of players like Song, and Westerveld were simply to improve the team at the time and were not seen as long term soloutions, more like stop gaps untill we sign what we want

A bad side !we finished 3rd and we had James, Owen, Murphy, Carra, Gerrard, Rednapp,Ince, McManaman, Fowler  and thats only the English players we had when Houllier took over. Its not a bad start to building a team. Im sure I could have found another couple of players for £125million!

Everyone bangs on about Fowler, saying how he was past his best when Houllier sold him and he wasn't the same player after the first bout of injuries then when people make this arguement all of a sudden they go back to saying how good he was at the time. Selective memory.

Murphy wasn't anything like at the required level before Houllier arrived. He was lazy, lightweight and lacked movement in his play. He was also very unfit for a young player. As for Redknapp and Ince, don't make me laugh. They  weren't poor players but they certainly weren't good players. McManaman's head was up his and was leaving and the fact you mentioned James floors your arguement even further.

£125,000,000 over 5 years. £25,000,000 a year. All of a sudden it doesn't look that daft.

This summer Rafa spent:

£9.5m on Kuyt
£6m on Bellamy
£6.7m on Pennant (who you lot are stating as a waste by the way)
£3.5m on Gonzalez
Nothing on Aurelio

Now, why hasn't he improved the team then spending over £25million or so? Why is it we're a worse team this season than last? Why is it that Gonzalez, who was suposed to be a wonderkid has less ability than Biscan? Why is it that Pennant (who you lot believe to have no ability) was signed and hasn't performed?