Liverpool FC Forum

[bigmick]

And what happens when someone brings up a stat that says we have made just as many changes to the team this season as both chelsea and Man utd . Many have them have been forced upon us by injury to players - Torres,Gerrard,Xabi,,Masher,Skrtel,Agger,Aurelio,Arbeloa,Reira have all had to be replaced throughout the season and at regular times . But it hasnt effected us becuase the standard of players being brought in while not as good as man utds are still better than what we have had previously .

And i dont understand the whole playing players out of position ? Has it really happened that often and on a regular basis ?
We had crouch moved out to the left during one game when it was obvious that it wasnt working when torres was out there against arsenal in the CL last season but that was for about 20 odd mins . We had masher and skrtel at right back - but other than that ?? what other ones is there that have been bad choices ?

And surely earlier on in the season we were still in the CL and FA cup so we still had to think ahead to a fixture congestion.

look I mean no disrespect here GYBS, but this is a good thread and I probably shouldn't have answered the earlier rotation question. I'm not going to answer yours here, but if you read the rotation thread all of your questions are covered a number of times.

[GYBS]

The post is a reflection on this season as well Mick and is in response to your post -

The reason i mention the stats about player changes is on Sky or MOTD couple weeks ago they showed the amount of changes made by the top 4 and man utd were top then us then chelsea while we used the least amount of players - so rafas methods havent changed and wont change for next season .

And the players out of position ? who bar what i have mentioned ? Maybe there was the time keane had to go out left for a half due to an injury ?

[bigmick]

The reason i mention the stats about player changes is on Sky or MOTD couple weeks ago they showed the amount of changes made by the top 4 and man utd were top then us then chelsea while we used the least amount of players - so rafas methods havent changed and wont change for next season .

If by this you mean that in your opinion we haven't reduced the styling, well we'll just have to agree to differ.

It's very much like posters claiming that we haven't become more attacking, we've always attacked this much and drawing games 4-4 is just one of those things. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion I guess .

[GYBS]

we have taken more risks in games which has left us a little exposed when go all out for games - ie the 4-4 against arsenal and the games against chelsea- i would rather a mixed balanced - and on the rotating i think rafa still does it the way he wants to but the standard of players being brought into the team is better than what we had couple of years ago .

[bigmick]

Leaving aside the rotation thing and coming back to the original thread starter and expenditure. It's worth remembering that we spent 40 million pounds in the Summer, which is a significant amount of money in anyones book. Now people keep referring to the "30 million quid players" who the Mancs have, but we could have had one ourselves there, and still nbought Riera who was the only purchase who has had any impact whatsoever on the first team.

that we decided to pay over 20 million quid for Robbie Keane, and 7 million quid for Dossena is nobody elses fault but our own to be fair. I think you can safely assume that if we spunk our transfer funds this Summer once again, it'll make it harder to bridge any gap we need to make up.

[Bad Bob]

Target for next season - Challenge and win the title , if no title then get some silverware .

realistically we should win the title next season if we get 1 or 2 more top quality players , we just need to cut out the draws which have hurt us so badly this season

See this is kind of where I disagree with most people. We have made massive strides this season, to the point where we are now serious challengers. At the begining of next season, we are in a select group of two or possibly three clubs who can possibly win the title (I don't think Arsenal can even though I expect them to improve).

All that said, just because we are now up there doesn't mean we should expect to win it. I'll tell you this here and now and I say it a fully paid up member of the anti club, Rafa gotr us up there and provided he keeps us there and doesn't revert back to the old habits, there'll be no dissent from me if we finish third next season but right in touch. It's going to be extremely hard for us to win it, yes we should aim to win it of course, but it would IMHo be a huge mistake to be massively disappointed if we don't quite get there next term.

I'll finish with a positive. No team has ever won the Premiership four times on the bounce, nor the football league or at least not in modern times. If hitory repeats itself (which it often does in football) and the Mancs don't win it, then obviously we've got an absolutely huge chance then, even I'm optimistic about that.

That's my attitude too.  We should be competing for the title every season for the foreseeable now because we have the squad to do so.  Whether we win it or not in any given year will be down to all sorts of things, some of which we can control and a lot of which we can't.  We're going to need to be patient if we don't get the rub of the green but are right there in the hunt.  As long as Rafa and the lads aren't stumbling at the same hurdles every time, we just have to accept that sometimes it'll be our year and sometimes not.

With all that said, I still find it strange Mick that you seem a little pessimistic about our chances of improving on this season next year.  Indeed, we've had a lot of the rub of the green but we've also had some bad luck along the way.  More importantly, we've had the experience of a challenge and we've learned some important lessons.  With that reality in mind and with the expectation that we'll improve our transfer record this summer over last, I can't see any reason why we shouldn't be optimistic going into next year.  You seem intent on seeing this season as our best chance blown rather than as a vital stepping stone to future glory and I can't quite fathom why that needs be so?

[GYBS]

But still doesnt explain this frequency of players playing out of position ? is it really that frequent ?

Yes we spent 40 million - half of it wasted on keane and maybe another 7 mil on dossena . I agree that our money last year wasnt spent wisely but it was spent on areas we all wanted to be improved in just got the wrong players.

[DrPepe]

realistically we should win the title next season if we get 1 or 2 more top quality players , we just need to cut out the draws which have hurt us so badly this season 

 

Unfortunately mate, there are at least 2 and probably 3 other teams who can say exactly the same thing and are in a better position finances-wise. That's kind of the reason I started the thread. I think we need to reign in the absolute expectations of   winning the prem next season

[stmichael]

I still find it strange Mick that you seem a little pessimistic about our chances of improving on this season next year.  Indeed, we've had a lot of the rub of the green but we've also had some bad luck along the way.  More importantly, we've had the experience of a challenge and we've learned some important lessons.  With that reality in mind and with the expectation that we'll improve our transfer record this summer over last, I can't see any reason why we shouldn't be optimistic going into next year.  You seem intent on seeing this season as our best chance blown rather than as a vital stepping stone to future glory and I can't quite fathom why that needs be so?

I think it's caution rather than pessimism to be honest.

We all took huge positives from 2006 when we won the FA Cup and finished level with the Mancs, and then look what happened. This season means nothing in isolation. Yes, history tells you that you need to have a season challenging for the league before you win it, but as I say this doesn't guarantee anything.

[GYBS]

The 2006 season was a weird one because i didnt think at the time we were good enough to challenge and need a lot of improvement . That season we not once challenged for the title and were still beaten to second place by a rebuilding Manc side . We got knocked out of the cl in the first knockout and were able to concentrate a bit more on the prem bar the last couple of games where people were rested for the FA Cup. While it was a very good campaign it was a false dawn when looking at the quality of the squad .

[bigmick]

With all that said, I still find it strange Mick that you seem a little pessimistic about our chances of improving on this season next year.  Indeed, we've had a lot of the rub of the green but we've also had some bad luck along the way.  More importantly, we've had the experience of a challenge and we've learned some important lessons.  With that reality in mind and with the expectation that we'll improve our transfer record this summer over last, I can't see any reason why we shouldn't be optimistic going into next year.  You seem intent on seeing this season as our best chance blown rather than as a vital stepping stone to future glory and I can't quite fathom why that needs be so?

Bob I can't help the pessimism mate, I think it's more realsim. I think we'll be right up there again for sure provided Rafa continues on his curve, but I think it's a big ask.

Look, if we win our last couple of matches (which I think we will) and the Mancs win theirs (ditto) we are going to finsih six points back. It's been a brilliant effort and all that, but we'd be six points back once all the shouting had finished.

Now, that's six points back when we beat them Home and Away. If they'd beat us Home and Away, we'd be EIGHTEEN points back. Even if one of the game had been a draw, we'd be NINE points back. Now in the Home game it was 1-1 and we got the goal, in the away game it was 1-1 and we got the goal. We were behind in BOTH matches. BOTH matches could have gone either way, and I think if anyone denies that they are delusional. I think it's reasonable to assume we might not win against them Home and Away next season, which gives us a mountain to climb in terms of making up ground, particularly if Chelsea and Arsenal manage to improve (which as I've said many times I think they will). 

It might be worth considering how we've gone in the last couple of seasons in big four match ups in the Champions League, our supposed trump card. We've met big four teams three times, we've avoided the most formidable out of them and yet we've still lost two ties and won just the one. Tight matches yes, but we've gone out two out of three all the same. It would be a mistake IMHo to assume 14 points out of 18 is anything like normal against other big four teams.

If it seems like I am obsessive about the view that we have just had an absolutely golden, gilt edged chance to win the league, a gift in many ways, it's probably because I am absolutely convinced that this is the case. It will IMHO be MUCH harder to win the league next season assuming more normal big four match up results and improvement to Chelsea and Arsenal that it was this.

Like I say, if Rafa can keep us up there and keep building, I hope people have a bit of patience now. I would like to win A trophy though sometime soon though. Or get to a final or something, or a semi.

[GYBS]

Lots of IFS we had been beaten etc mick - but we werent and we arent 18 points behind etc as we beat them deservedly so . Could they of really gone either way ? Van Der Sar in the first game made some outstanding saves to keep them in it and the second game they had a couple of chances but didnt threaten that much .

[DrPepe]

With all that said, I still find it strange Mick that you seem a little pessimistic about our chances of improving on this season next year.  Indeed, we've had a lot of the rub of the green but we've also had some bad luck along the way.  More importantly, we've had the experience of a challenge and we've learned some important lessons.  With that reality in mind and with the expectation that we'll improve our transfer record this summer over last, I can't see any reason why we shouldn't be optimistic going into next year.  You seem intent on seeing this season as our best chance blown rather than as a vital stepping stone to future glory and I can't quite fathom why that needs be so?

Bob I can't help the pessimism mate, I think it's more realsim. I think we'll be right up there again for sure provided Rafa continues on his curve, but I think it's a big ask.

Look, if we win our last couple of matches (which I think we will) and the Mancs win theirs (ditto) we are going to finsih six points back. It's been a brilliant effort and all that, but we'd be six points back once all the shouting had finished.

Now, that's six points back when we beat them Home and Away. If they'd beat us Home and Away, we'd be EIGHTEEN points back. Even if one of the game had been a draw, we'd be NINE points back. Now in the Home game it was 1-1 and we got the goal, in the away game it was 1-1 and we got the goal. We were behind in BOTH matches. BOTH matches could have gone either way, and I think if anyone denies that they are delusional. I think it's reasonable to assume we might not win against them Home and Away next season, which gives us a mountain to climb in terms of making up ground, particularly if Chelsea and Arsenal manage to improve (which as I've said many times I think they will). 

It might be worth considering how we've gone in the last couple of seasons in big four match ups in the Champions League, our supposed trump card. We've met big four teams three times, we've avoided the most formidable out of them and yet we've still lost two ties and won just the one. Tight matches yes, but we've gone out two out of three all the same. It would be a mistake IMHo to assume 14 points out of 18 is anything like normal against other big four teams.

If it seems like I am obsessive about the view that we have just had an absolutely golden, gilt edged chance to win the league, a gift in many ways, it's probably because I am absolutely convinced that this is the case. It will IMHO be MUCH harder to win the league next season assuming more normal big four match up results and improvement to Chelsea and Arsenal that it was this.

Like I say, if Rafa can keep us up there and keep building, I hope people have a bit of patience now. I would like to win A trophy though sometime soon though. Or get to a final or something, or a semi.

i agree with bigmick on this one - we 're unlikely to be half as good as we have been this season against the big4

in fact when you take away those results , we've actually been unusually bad this season against the lower teams (worse than last season...)

so on balance i think we'll improve against the dross (possibly we'll have better players and we'll defo have to have a better attitude to beating those teams), but probably not do as well against the top4

After all the margin for improvement is greater and easier against the lower teams - therefore i think we'll overall do better next season

[bigmick]

Lots of IFS we had been beaten etc mick - but we werent and we arent 18 points behind etc as we beat them deservedly so . Could they of really gone either way ? Van Der Sar in the first game made some outstanding saves to keep them in it and the second game they had a couple of chances but didnt threaten that much .

Mate you don't go behind to the Mancs twice in one season and end up winning both very often put it that way. I would say when you concede first against them, it's not being overly pessimistic to say the game could have mgone either way.

Anyhow, time for me scratcher, I hope you guys are right and it's just a formality next season .

Good luck all.

[GYBS]

No one is saying its a formality or anything like that .But lets not down play our chances too much nor down play the results we have had against them this year - it should give the guys confidence and belief i.