The current predicament... - A reality check...

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Ace Ventura » Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:55 pm

Sarge wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:
timmit wrote:My point here is that the strange fixture quirks have made possibly us look worse than we are and Utd look better than they are. We bought players would need time to gel and the FA rewarded us with all our important away games first, thats just bad luck

Thats spot on and the sooner people realise it the better.

I have said since the start of the season that our fixtures where an absolute nightmare and uniteds a piece of p!ss, and i actually believe uniteds were fixed (it may sound like sour grapes) but look at it this way...fans were losing interest in the premiership, as it was a one horse race for 2 seasons and was predictable, so lets give the best supported club all of the hardest games at home in the first half of the season, and the likes of Watford and Charlton away early in the season, let them pick up form and confidence and turn it into a two horse race this season, neutrals will stay interested.
That is firmly what i believe.

true that.

on the lighter note, if (A BIG IF)
manu, chelsea, bolton and arsenal  fu.ck up the next couple of games, we will be joining the title race! its only 8 points adrift from chelski. it is possible.

just keeping the fingers crossed

It sounds cheesy and like i am just listening to Rafa but lets just take one game at a time, consolidate the position we are in, and then IF Chelsea or united drop points, try and close the gap.
Its unlikely but not impossible, Chelsea are nowhere near as consistent as last season, and appear to have no shape to the side at all.
United look good but not great, they have slipped up in a couple of away fixtures that you wouldnt have expected so who knows what will happen when they have to go to the emirates, anfield and even the city of manchester stadium.
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Postby Redman in wales » Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:22 pm

Ace Ventura wrote:It sounds cheesy and like i am just listening to Rafa but lets just take one game at a time, consolidate the position we are in, and then IF Chelsea or united drop points, try and close the gap.
Its unlikely but not impossible, Chelsea are nowhere near as consistent as last season, and appear to have no shape to the side at all.
United look good but not great, they have slipped up in a couple of away fixtures that you wouldnt have expected so who knows what will happen when they have to go to the emirates, anfield and even the city of manchester stadium.

i'm with you ace on just taking each game as it comes

as with every liverpool fan in the world i hope that chelsea do fu*k up ... but this inconsistancy is due to terrys abence. they've drawn their last 3 games. all 3 were without terry and with those extra 6 points they'd be joint top and 16 ponits ahead of us. Cech is also very important to them as without Cudicini, they are playing a third choice keeper.
Or as Hansen puts it: "The goalkeeping position is key. Hilario is no Carlo Cudicini and Carlo Cudicini is no Peter Cech"

but Terry is now back. Cech will be back for the game at anfield.

I want them to fail so much... but realistically with terry and cech back - i dont think they will falter as much.
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Postby mattylfc » Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:26 pm

STR_18+5 wrote:Also, why has the defence changed so much last season? We were outstanding at the back this year, we've been very average so far. Agger has shown promise but thats all. He's not at Sami's level yet and we miss Hyypia when he doesn't play alot. The best back four is the one that played last season.

The defense has been changing this year because Hyppia isnt getting any younger and Agger needs to be bedded in. I dont understand how you can say 'Agger has shown promise and thats all'.  When Agger has played he has been exceptional.  He has featured mainly at home because of his quality of football on the ground, in these games he is very important as we see much more of the ball and he is able to bring the ball out of defense and start the play.

Sheff Utd, Everton, Bolton (away), Blackburn (home), Man utd, Arsenal.  These are all games where he didnt feature, i think that says a lot about how important Agger has been this year.
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Postby stmichael » Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:01 pm

Looking at our remaining fixtures I reckon we'll finish on 80 points.

It has turned into another season of looking forward to the start of next season. I believe we will be ready to challenge for the title then. Then again I was saying that this time last year.

As others have said Pennant and Gonzalez have disappointed so far but I still have faith in them both and the signs are improving. Hopefully they can continue to improve and carry it into next season.

Aurelio has not shown anything so far. Another disappointment.

On the plus side Kuyt has been fantastic, Bellamy is now showing what I expected of him and Crouch gives us a different option.
Last edited by stmichael on Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby A.B. » Thu Jan 04, 2007 9:39 pm

Aurelio has not shown anything so far. Another disappointment.


To be fair to him he's spent a lot of time on the treatment table and has never had a consistent spell of games to prove his worth.
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Postby aCe' » Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:44 am

he never played in his position to start with....
Aurelio is a left back... he needs time but obviously seems to have quality... give him time to adapt and settle and he'll be challenging riise for that LB spot !
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Postby tubby » Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:06 am

Sure Houllier did :censored: away a lot of £ but credit has to go for him for signing players that have a backbone to us for the past few years like Riise and Hyypia and to an extent when he played well Henchoz but all managers make mistakes.

Look at Chelsea now with Shevchenko or Alex Ferguson with that Kleberson. At then end of the day if the player isnt good enough hes not good enough but the manager is the one who will take the flak for signing them.
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Postby sissoko_22 » Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:16 pm

I think the start to the season has been affected by a number of problems. senior players were well below their usual standards,even those who were hardly rotated. gerrard was average, while alonso was terrible(not just for liverpool but also spain eg. northern ireland). this makes it allot more difficult for new players to bed in. however rafa's rotating was a bit too much.changing 1 or 2 players is ok but 4 or 5 makes it impossible to gain momentum. i do feel that rafa was tryin to decide what his best eleven was and was why he rotated so regularly.the past few weeks he has only rotated when neccesary. the most disapointing aspect this season has been on both wings. 

we have played some terrific football but often the final ball has been a let down. weseem to lack belief and composure when we fall behind. this is not the case with MANUre and chelski. this may be down to lack of strong characters or experience. whatever the reason, we need to overcome this problem for the start of 07/08 imo ,if we are going to make a serious challenge
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Postby Bad Bob » Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:32 pm

So, leaving all the unnecessary abuse to one side, really what you're saying, Stu, is that Rafa's been guilty of two things in his tenure to date (but more so this season):

1) An occasional penchant for unnecessary squad rotation (which you file under "poor management" and "poor team selection")

and

2) Signing a few players who haven't really done the business, while passing on other players who MIGHT have done the business

When you boil it down to these essentials, I agree with you.  There have been games where the team selection has cost us points and there have been transfers that hindsight does not smile kindly upon.  Rafa is not infallible and he's still learning his way around the English game.  So, fair play for calling a spade a spade and pointing out the mistakes made by a manager you clearly respect.

For me, though, Rafa's no more guilty of the errors outlined above than are his principal managerial rivals.  Ferguson, Mourinho and Wenger have all, on occasion, made dodgy team selections this season and some of their transfer dealings in the past few seasons don't look especially clever either.  This brings us back to bad luck and a miserable fixture list as the key thing separating us from the club's we're chasing.  To my mind, we've been made to pay a higher price for mistakes that all managers--even the best--make.  If there's one thing about Rafa, though, it's that he's a thoughtful observer and a quick study.  I've every confidence that he'll straighten these problems out in the seasons to come.
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Postby Effes » Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:11 pm

stmichael wrote:Looking at our remaining fixtures I reckon we'll finish on 80 points.

I so hope so, I put all my savings on us getting over 76 points (11-8 with Coral).

I've got different graphs etc - reckon we'll be in the 72-75 range. However, if we have a mad run like last season then happy days as far as I'm concerned.
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Postby tel » Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:05 am

Guest wrote:
s@int wrote:Evans last season 97/98 POSITION 3RD Points 65
Houlliers last season 03/04 position 4th points 60 after spending £125million

PROGRESS?

As for the players I mentioned James, Owen, Murphy, Carra, Gerrard, Rednapp,Ince, McManaman, Fowler  they are ALL England international players.

McManaman had shaken hands on a deal to stay at liverpool only to then be offered a reduced contract.

We also had Berger, Matteo, Thomas ,McAteer,Freidel, Thomson, Reidle.

And Houllier took over a poor team ? Don't make me laugh.

Just try to find one post of mine where I call Fowler.

Evan's never came even remotely close to winning the league. Nor at any point under Evans did we even look CLOSE or BELIEVE we had a slight chance, even with Fowler planting 25 and 28 goals in a league season. Evans never won anything apart from one league cup, now to you, winning a league cup against the mancs might not mean anything, winning a uefa cup and an fa cup might not mean anything, winning a super cup might not mean anything and finishing above the mancs in the league might also mean nothing. Consistently beating Everton and Man Utd might mean nothing...

To me it means a hell of a lot. Especially when you're actually there and you see it happen infront of your eyes and you pay good money to see it happen.

But of course they mean nothing to you. You can look at Owen's winner in the cup final without a tear in your eye, you can picture the players celebrating the Uefa cup win infront of your eyes without being emotionally attached to it. The wins at old trafford and goodison meant nothing. Thats fine, thats your perogative, that shows what kind of "supporter" you are.

Whats your point about the england internationals? Whats that gotta do with anything? So's Crouch, Glen Johnson, Andy Johnson, that doesn't mean they are great players.

The players we had at the time were :censored:. Ince was awful for us. Redknapp was like Alonso with his passing but had no athletic ability, creative play, passion, heart or determination. Murphy was made into the player he was by Houllier, Gerrard was given his chance by Houllier, Carragher would have been sold if the idiots had there way.

You're clearly only picking up on the negatives. You haven't once argued your point against anything positive I have said with a reasoned arguement.

I'd trade all the 2nd rate trophies Houllier won for the one Champions league trophy Rafa won in a heartbeat.
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Postby LFC #1 » Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:32 am

tel wrote:
Guest wrote:
s@int wrote:Evans last season 97/98 POSITION 3RD Points 65
Houlliers last season 03/04 position 4th points 60 after spending £125million

PROGRESS?

As for the players I mentioned James, Owen, Murphy, Carra, Gerrard, Rednapp,Ince, McManaman, Fowler  they are ALL England international players.

McManaman had shaken hands on a deal to stay at liverpool only to then be offered a reduced contract.

We also had Berger, Matteo, Thomas ,McAteer,Freidel, Thomson, Reidle.

And Houllier took over a poor team ? Don't make me laugh.

Just try to find one post of mine where I call Fowler.

Evan's never came even remotely close to winning the league. Nor at any point under Evans did we even look CLOSE or BELIEVE we had a slight chance, even with Fowler planting 25 and 28 goals in a league season. Evans never won anything apart from one league cup, now to you, winning a league cup against the mancs might not mean anything, winning a uefa cup and an fa cup might not mean anything, winning a super cup might not mean anything and finishing above the mancs in the league might also mean nothing. Consistently beating Everton and Man Utd might mean nothing...

To me it means a hell of a lot. Especially when you're actually there and you see it happen infront of your eyes and you pay good money to see it happen.

But of course they mean nothing to you. You can look at Owen's winner in the cup final without a tear in your eye, you can picture the players celebrating the Uefa cup win infront of your eyes without being emotionally attached to it. The wins at old trafford and goodison meant nothing. Thats fine, thats your perogative, that shows what kind of "supporter" you are.

Whats your point about the england internationals? Whats that gotta do with anything? So's Crouch, Glen Johnson, Andy Johnson, that doesn't mean they are great players.

The players we had at the time were :censored:. Ince was awful for us. Redknapp was like Alonso with his passing but had no athletic ability, creative play, passion, heart or determination. Murphy was made into the player he was by Houllier, Gerrard was given his chance by Houllier, Carragher would have been sold if the idiots had there way.

You're clearly only picking up on the negatives. You haven't once argued your point against anything positive I have said with a reasoned arguement.

I'd trade all the 2nd rate trophies Houllier won for the one Champions league trophy Rafa won in a heartbeat.

the UEFA Cup and FA Cup are hardly second rate. Despite that I still agree with you on the point of swapping them.
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Postby stmichael » Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:32 pm

I've actually been thinking about this for a while and the last week has really brought it home to me.

At times I just think we're too easy to play against. In quite a few of the games we've lost this season, the opposition, whoever it may be, have followed a similar blueprint. It's been a noticeable feature this season that quite a few sides who have played against us have used two solid, rigid backs of four in defence and in midfield (although an fifth midfielder sometimes plays at the expense of a striker), let us have the ball in midfield and defend deep against us. Again, the thing I've noticed with this is that if you keep things tight and the back and don't do anything stupid or make a mistake, chances are, you'll get at least a point.

The game where this stands out for me was the home game against Portsmouth earlier this season. Portsmouth were very disciplined that night, keeping the defence and midfield solid as their respective units and got the point they deserved. The most worrying thing for me that night was that we hardly created any chances all night thanks to Portsmouth's compact game. Looking back at that game, the only two chances I can remember us having where a Xabi Alonso free-kick and a Steven Gerrard diving header in the last few minutes that just went wide of goal. You have to say that creating one clear-cut chance from open play in 90 minutes, especially when David James had so little work that his kit was just as immaculate at full-time as when he was given it before the game by the kit man.

The following game against Man City on the Saturday followed a similar pattern as they employed the same tactics as Portsmouth. However, the only thing that stopped them from claiming a point was a misplaced Joey Barton pass that Gerrard blasted in from about 20 yards out. Before that though, Weaver in the City goal hadn't had a save to make and I don't think he had too many to make after it as well.

The 4-0 win against Fulham was similar as well because again, they played the same tactics as the two previous sides I've mentioned and we were duly frustrated. The mistake they made came from a handball in their box and Gerrard scored from the resulting penalty at the second attempt. Fulham, after this, decided to attack to try and get something from the game so pushed up, allowing us plenty of space to play in and of course scored another 3. That differed from the City game as instead of attacking us for an equaliser, City still seemed content to sit-back as they knew that barring a mistake, we wouldn't score again and they seemed content to wait for a set-piece to try and nick an equaliser.

On Saturday, Arsenal played in a similar way but of course, have a bit more pace and guile than the above teams mentioned so were able to take a couple of chances on the counter-attack despite us having a fair amount of possession in the first half and camping in their half in the second. Despite this, we failed to create that many chances and again, we scored as a result of an Arsenal mistake when Clichy failed to pick up Kuyt from the corner.

To be honest, I think this is one of the reasons why we have this reputation as a "second half-team" in that it is obviously easier to be disciplined against us for 45 minutes as opposed to the full 90 when playing this way and for me, this highlights one are of concern in the squad- the lack of genuine match-winners, the type of players who can create something out of nothing. By my reckoning, we only really have Gerrard and Garcia (on his day) who can do this. Alonso can pick out a 30 yard pass out of nothing but it's harder to do this when there is no space for forward players to get in behind the back four and for all their qualities as strikers, Kuyt, Bellamy and Crouch can't really turn a game on it's head as each rather rely on hard graft when playing and in Bellamy's case, tenacity. Gonzalez could yet come good as whenever I've seen him this season, even when he hasn't been playing to his best, he's still produced at least one moment of brilliance that hints at a deeper ability than he is currently showing once he acclimitises to English football.

Look at the two sides above us, Chelsea and United, each blessed with players who have that bit extra, the ability to create something from nothing. Chelsea have this in abundance with Robben, Cole (when fit) and this season, Drogba while United rely on the trickery of Rooney and Ronaldo to unlock stubborn defences with moments of brilliance. The signing of Henrik Larsson, in my opinion, is a brilliant one for United as despite his age, he still has the ability of the two petulant youngsters I've mentioned and a genuine footballing brain to know just how to create space not just for himself, but his team-mates.

Effectively, the point I'm trying to argue is that are we easy to play against as a result of a lack of genuine creative talent in the squad.
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Postby kunilson » Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:46 pm

great post that ^ i agree with most points there....i've looked at us trying to break down teams and it all seems to predictable at times, we need to learn how to mix it up or else we need more creative players as u said...
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Postby puroresu » Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:48 pm

stmichael wrote:I've actually been thinking about this for a while and the last week has really brought it home to me.

At times I just think we're too easy to play against. In quite a few of the games we've lost this season, the opposition, whoever it may be, have followed a similar blueprint. It's been a noticeable feature this season that quite a few sides who have played against us have used two solid, rigid backs of four in defence and in midfield (although an fifth midfielder sometimes plays at the expense of a striker), let us have the ball in midfield and defend deep against us. Again, the thing I've noticed with this is that if you keep things tight and the back and don't do anything stupid or make a mistake, chances are, you'll get at least a point.

The game where this stands out for me was the home game against Portsmouth earlier this season. Portsmouth were very disciplined that night, keeping the defence and midfield solid as their respective units and got the point they deserved. The most worrying thing for me that night was that we hardly created any chances all night thanks to Portsmouth's compact game. Looking back at that game, the only two chances I can remember us having where a Xabi Alonso free-kick and a Steven Gerrard diving header in the last few minutes that just went wide of goal. You have to say that creating one clear-cut chance from open play in 90 minutes, especially when David James had so little work that his kit was just as immaculate at full-time as when he was given it before the game by the kit man.

The following game against Man City on the Saturday followed a similar pattern as they employed the same tactics as Portsmouth. However, the only thing that stopped them from claiming a point was a misplaced Joey Barton pass that Gerrard blasted in from about 20 yards out. Before that though, Weaver in the City goal hadn't had a save to make and I don't think he had too many to make after it as well.

The 4-0 win against Fulham was similar as well because again, they played the same tactics as the two previous sides I've mentioned and we were duly frustrated. The mistake they made came from a handball in their box and Gerrard scored from the resulting penalty at the second attempt. Fulham, after this, decided to attack to try and get something from the game so pushed up, allowing us plenty of space to play in and of course scored another 3. That differed from the City game as instead of attacking us for an equaliser, City still seemed content to sit-back as they knew that barring a mistake, we wouldn't score again and they seemed content to wait for a set-piece to try and nick an equaliser.

On Saturday, Arsenal played in a similar way but of course, have a bit more pace and guile than the above teams mentioned so were able to take a couple of chances on the counter-attack despite us having a fair amount of possession in the first half and camping in their half in the second. Despite this, we failed to create that many chances and again, we scored as a result of an Arsenal mistake when Clichy failed to pick up Kuyt from the corner.

To be honest, I think this is one of the reasons why we have this reputation as a "second half-team" in that it is obviously easier to be disciplined against us for 45 minutes as opposed to the full 90 when playing this way and for me, this highlights one are of concern in the squad- the lack of genuine match-winners, the type of players who can create something out of nothing. By my reckoning, we only really have Gerrard and Garcia (on his day) who can do this. Alonso can pick out a 30 yard pass out of nothing but it's harder to do this when there is no space for forward players to get in behind the back four and for all their qualities as strikers, Kuyt, Bellamy and Crouch can't really turn a game on it's head as each rather rely on hard graft when playing and in Bellamy's case, tenacity. Gonzalez could yet come good as whenever I've seen him this season, even when he hasn't been playing to his best, he's still produced at least one moment of brilliance that hints at a deeper ability than he is currently showing once he acclimitises to English football.

Look at the two sides above us, Chelsea and United, each blessed with players who have that bit extra, the ability to create something from nothing. Chelsea have this in abundance with Robben, Cole (when fit) and this season, Drogba while United rely on the trickery of Rooney and Ronaldo to unlock stubborn defences with moments of brilliance. The signing of Henrik Larsson, in my opinion, is a brilliant one for United as despite his age, he still has the ability of the two petulant youngsters I've mentioned and a genuine footballing brain to know just how to create space not just for himself, but his team-mates.

Effectively, the point I'm trying to argue is that are we easy to play against as a result of a lack of genuine creative talent in the squad.

I agree. 

I think the majority of clubs in the league given a choice would rather come to Anfield than OT, Arsenal or Chelsea.

Seems to me when a side plays with 2 banks of 4 and allows us to play in front of them we struggle.  They ask us to break them down and we really find it difficult to create genuine chances.  Sometimes we just get the ball forward and hope eventually something will happen.
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